Indiana School's Active Shooter Training

[TomInMN]

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/indiana-active-shooter-pellets/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

 

If you're giving people PTSD (Speaking generally, that's not mentioned here.) you're probably being counterproductive. On the other hand, it's ACTIVE SHOOTER TRAINING. You should be freaking people out, so they can learn to navigate those emotions should they have to. And a big lesson (sounds like not) learned in this case is that these people all lined up to be herded into a room and shot. Don't do that!

[DaveTN]

Injuring people without their consent is a crime. You would think the Sheriff would know that. I guess its possible they signed releases not knowing what they were in for. You don’t have to hurt people to train them.

[GlockSpock]

Ah yes, I read two articles about it this morning, the winy teachers who got shot.

With that being said, at first I thought it was something like airsoft.

I now think it was basically simulations...which is supposed to hurt more than airsoft.

It seems that the "shooters" in this case likely would agree with many of us here.

 

I would love to be a participant in one of these training scenarios...assuming all bets of cooperation are off. No matter how much it'd hurt getting shot by simulations...I think it would be an entirely thrilling experience.

 

 

[GlockSpock]

9 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Injuring people without their consent is a crime. You would think the Sheriff would know that. I guess its possible they signed releases not knowing what they were in for. You don’t have to hurt people to train them.

I would think...surely...that a Sheriff's Department would cover their bases legally regarding this. I think 100% (just my guess) that a bunch of liberal leaning teachers figured if they just cooperated then they wouldn't be shot. Some pro-gun participants figured they'd try to instill in these people a "lesson" and figured they'd have some fun doing so.

I found this quote on another article, I don't know how valid it is:

“They told us, ‘This is what happens if you just cower and do nothing,” one teacher who participated in the drill and who asked not to be identified, told the Indy Star.

[GlockSpock]

@DaveTN

Sidenote: Do I think a few of the participants likely took things too far? Yes, I'll agree with that.

 

I would take things too far...so I understand where they are coming from.

[DaveTN]

Just now, GlockSpock said:

@DaveTN

Sidenote: Do I think a few of the participants likely took things too far? Yes, I'll agree with that.

 

I would take things too far...so I understand where they are coming from.

If you sign up for getting tased, maced, or shot with air soft guns and you are aware of it; that’s great. And if you as a trainer want to take things that far and are ready to get hurt; so be it.

Do you need to be shot with an air soft gun at point black range to know it hurts? Do you not think most people know that getting shot would hurt?

Reality? What if as they were lining us up, I punched a Deputy in the face and dropped him? Because that would be the reality of what would happen in a real situation. Would the Sheriff be okay with that? I bet I would be charged with a crime. There isn’t anything “real” about what they were doing.

It’s BS. I’m surprised they could get real cops to go along with it.

[E4 No More]

Back in 1989 I went thru training where they shot cotton wads out of revolvers using magnum primers. At close range you'd be surprised how much a wad of cotton can hurt and the welt it would leave on your arm.

[peejman]

19 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

If you sign up for getting tased, maced, or shot with air soft guns and you are aware of it; that’s great. And if you as a trainer want to take things that far and are ready to get hurt; so be it.

Do you need to be shot with an air soft gun at point black range to know it hurts? Do you not think most people know that getting shot would hurt?

Reality? What if as they were lining us up, I punched a Deputy in the face and dropped him? Because that would be the reality of what would happen in a real situation. Would the Sheriff be okay with that? I bet I would be charged with a crime. There isn’t anything “real” about what they were doing.

It’s BS. I’m surprised they could get real cops to go along with it.

I'd presume that's what GS meant by "all bets are off". If I knew they were shooting, you're darn skippy I'd be kicking, punching, gouging, ...   May as well make it realistic for all involved. 

[DaveTN]

9 minutes ago, peejman said:

I'd presume that's what GS meant by "all bets are off". If I knew they were shooting, you're darn skippy I'd be kicking, punching, gouging, ...   May as well make it realistic for all involved. 

Exactly, and that’s fine. But I’m surprised that any self respecting law enforcement Officer would think that hurting teachers while herding them around like cattle simply because that is what a Sheriff Deputy is telling them to do, helps anything or is any kind of training.

I’m all for sticking up for the cops when they are right. But this is just stupid and the kind of thing that makes people think real Law Enforcement Officers are unprofessional.

It was a very bad idea brought to fruition and that’s why its all over the national news.

[A.J. Holst]

I don't disagree with the herding , creating confusion, and stress but these folks didn't sign up for FoF training.

Airsoft / Sims at close range is extremely dangerous, even with protective gear.

 

[peejman]

This sheds a little more light... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2019/03/21/active-shooter-training-schools-teachers-injured/3234928002/

Seems there were multiple scenarios. The "hide and wait to get shot" was to illustrate that doing nothing gets you dead, while fighting back is a better option.  

While actually shooting them maybe wasn't the smartest thing, there's nothing like a little pain to drive a point home. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Two different discussions here....

1. Close distance sims rounds hurt. I've done a fair amount of work in the 0-5 foot distance envelope with both airsoft and sims and have been shot with them at contact distance numerous times. It is not fun. But the object of the exercise was not to have fun it was to work on surviving close distance lethal force problems. Should the teachers have been shot with sims rounds ? I can make an argument for it and against it.

 

2. As to it causing them PTSD? You know part of the problem is that you have liberal teachers and school administrators who have never been in a fist fight trying to have a say in how to STOP KILLERS. "Conflict resolution" only works if there is a "conflict" that can be mediated....an active shooter is not there to negotiate or come to a settlement...he is there to kill. Victory for him is not getting a concession from the other side...it is stacking up corpses. So it might not be a bad idea for those teachers and administrators to be exposed (in a training environment where they will not be actually killed for real) to this level of violence so they will get their minds right as what REALLY will limit body counts in a school shooting event. Capitulation and negotiation and "feeling the misunderstood youth's pain" is not going to stop someone whose goal is to stack up corpses. Only an overwhelming application of lawful moral lethal violence will.  

[GlockSpock]

26 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

Two different discussions here....

1. Close distance sims rounds hurt. I've done a fair amount of work in the 0-5 foot distance envelope with both airsoft and sims and have been shot with them at contact distance numerous times. It is not fun. But the object of the exercise was not to have fun it was to work on surviving close distance lethal force problems. Should the teachers have been shot with sims rounds ? I can make an argument for it and against it.

 

2. As to it causing them PTSD? You know part of the problem is that you have liberal teachers and school administrators who have never been in a fist fight trying to have a say in how to STOP KILLERS. "Conflict resolution" only works if there is a "conflict" that can be mediated....an active shooter is not there to negotiate or come to a settlement...he is there to kill. Victory for him is not getting a concession from the other side...it is stacking up corpses. So it might not be a bad idea for those teachers and administrators to be exposed (in a training environment where they will not be actually killed for real) to this level of violence so they will get their minds right as what REALLY will limit body counts in a school shooting event. Capitulation and negotiation and "feeling the misunderstood youth's pain" is not going to stop someone whose goal is to stack up corpses. Only an overwhelming application of lawful moral lethal violence will.  

Agree 100%...if the training was for the teachers.

This...I don't know about. If the training for was LEO to train response tactics to an active shooter event...shooting the teachers by the "shooters" accomplished nothing but giving someone their jollies.

If the training was for the teachers themselves...and if they teachers signed paperwork acknowledging what could happen...I have lesser and lesser a problem for it. 

[owejia]

These are the teachers in schools now. Some of my teachers were WWII veterans, probably would be a different  out come if some hapless idiot had tried shooting up a school with the old vets there. Remember these teachers don't belong to gun and shooting forums either. Snowflakes always melt when the temperature goes up.  Maybe the presenters of the training were on a power trip.