Classifieds... Bills of sale, pics of DL licenses, ID info taken

[asu174]

Didn’t know where else to put this.  Feel free to move it if you want. 

I’ve been in TN one year.  I’m probably not going to change your mind, but thought I would offer some perspective from observations in the classifieds. 

I an astonished at the number of ads that require bills of sale.  There is even one that says he will take a picture of my ID if I purchase from him.  No.  Hell no.

If I were to buy from you, we would exchange phone numbers.  You would also see my car when we meet and see what I look like.  You could write my plate number down and even take a picture if you desired, but I would think that was weird.  I would probably also give you my name when we meet.  You would have all the personal information you need.  What does my signature and any other info do for you to protect you?  It’s a rhetorical question   Nothing.

“But if it’s used in a crime, I will have proof I sold it.”  True.  That proof, which depending on circumstances, could be used AGAINST you.  Saw it happen.  Guy bought a gun that had been flipped a bunch on the boards.  Beater P226. I saw that gun sold 6-7 times and almost ended up with it myself once.  Required a BOS when he eventually sold it.  Someone long before him reported it stolen.  Current owner got caught and didn’t know.  BOS seller and current owner both ended up getting arrested (he also gave a copy to the buyer, if I recall).  Story is long and I’m leaving out tons of details, but the BOS was proof he possessed and sold a stolen gun.

I’ve had two guns come up in skip traces and had visits from ATF as a result of them getting flipped to someone in California.  I didn’t provide names or info of the guys I sold to.  I just knew I didn’t have the guns anymore (and so did the ATF, obviously).  They made their threats for info and I called their bull####.  My only obligation was to not have reasonable suspicion that the buyer wasn’t from AZ and I made everyone I didn’t know do an ID flash (and looked at state of license plate), which was sufficient.

Anyhow, if you’re a BOSer, consider getting rid of the BOS requirement.  I won’t ever have the pleasure of meeting you otherwise.  It’s nice being free and not being required to fill out paperwork to meet someone face to face to exchange money for a tool with a serial number.  

We have enough BS from our gov’t in this state.  We don’t need to impose unnecessary BS on ourselves.  

[Omega]

This has been brought up before, and while I'm not one to ask for one, I personally don't care if they ask for one.  If I want it, I'll sign a bill of sale, show my ID/CCW whatever.  

[No_0ne]

Your choice of course on how you do business.  One minor point, BATF rules require that people who hold a FFL003 (C&R) who buy or sell C&R guns to non-license holders to record DL info as part of their bound book.  I typically take a pic of the seller's DL when purchasing from individuals ...

[asu174]

5 hours ago, No_0ne said:

Your choice of course on how you do business.  One minor point, BATF rules require that people who hold a FFL003 (C&R) who buy or sell C&R guns to non-license holders to record DL info as part of their bound book.  I typically take a pic of the seller's DL when purchasing from individuals ...

And if you were an FFL, I would have no problem with that stipulation.

[Ray Z]

9 hours ago, asu174 said:

Didn’t know where else to put this.  Feel free to move it if you want. 

I’ve been in TN one year.  I’m probably not going to change your mind, but thought I would offer some perspective from observations in the classifieds. 

I an astonished at the number of ads that require bills of sale.  There is even one that says he will take a picture of my ID if I purchase from him.  No.  Hell no.

If I were to buy from you, we would exchange phone numbers.  You would also see my car when we meet and see what I look like.  You could write my plate number down and even take a picture if you desired, but I would think that was weird.  I would probably also give you my name when we meet.  You would have all the personal information you need.  What does my signature and any other info do for you to protect you?  It’s a rhetorical question   Nothing.

“But if it’s used in a crime, I will have proof I sold it.”  True.  That proof, which depending on circumstances, could be used AGAINST you.  Saw it happen.  Guy bought a gun that had been flipped a bunch on the boards.  Beater P226. I saw that gun sold 6-7 times and almost ended up with it myself once.  Required a BOS when he eventually sold it.  Someone long before him reported it stolen.  Current owner got caught and didn’t know.  BOS seller and current owner both ended up getting arrested (he also gave a copy to the buyer, if I recall).  Story is long and I’m leaving out tons of details, but the BOS was proof he possessed and sold a stolen gun.

I’ve had two guns come up in skip traces and had visits from ATF as a result of them getting flipped to someone in California.  I didn’t provide names or info of the guys I sold to.  I just knew I didn’t have the guns anymore (and so did the ATF, obviously).  They made their threats for info and I called their bull####.  My only obligation was to not have reasonable suspicion that the buyer wasn’t from AZ and I made everyone I didn’t know do an ID flash (and looked at state of license plate), which was sufficient.

Anyhow, if you’re a BOSer, consider getting rid of the BOS requirement.  I won’t ever have the pleasure of meeting you otherwise.  It’s nice being free and not being required to fill out paperwork to meet someone face to face to exchange money for a tool with a serial number.  

We have enough BS from our gov’t in this state.  We don’t need to impose unnecessary BS on ourselves.  

Don't blame the state government. Anything I hear about comes from Uncle Sam. I would rather buy a gun second hand and loose the paper trail. The day will come when ATF will knock on our door with a non request for everything we have on paper. That cold dead hands thing is really BS. And if you think the military won't be involved I've got some bridges I want to sell you. Back in the days when shotguns weren't registered ATF decided a shotgun called the street sweeper was a destructive device because it wasn't made for hunting. You had to either turn it in or get a license like the one you'd have to have for explosives. Now the gun was a real POS and I never even wanted one, but I would have to turn it in Sig Hile  

[A.J. Holst]

If buyer/seller is down with a BOS, it reduces the odds of a prohibited transfer. An illegal operator won't create one as the seller and not want to sign as a buyer, unless this is their standard business operating procedure.

I like it for an unknown buyer or seller. For well known or known to others, I don't require it.

[btq96r]

 

11 hours ago, asu174 said:

Anyhow, if you’re a BOSer, consider getting rid of the BOS requirement.  I won’t ever have the pleasure of meeting you otherwise.  It’s nice being free and not being required to fill out paperwork to meet someone face to face to exchange money for a tool with a serial number.   

Sorry, not sorry.  When it's just a stranger from the internet, I want some level of protection and peace of mind, going into the sale, and after it.  A Bill of Sale and verification of identity make that possible if I ever someday decide to sell a gun.

[E4 No More]

Verification of identity is one thing. Giving you a photo of my DL that contains my DL number, full name, DOB, and address ain't happening. To me, ID theft is more of a threat than buying a gun from an established member. 

[A.J. Holst]

9 minutes ago, SWJewellTN said:

Verification of identity is one thing. Giving you a photo of my DL that contains my DL number, full name, DOB, and address ain't happening. To me, ID theft is more of a threat than buying a gun from an established member. 

ID and cyber theft is a multi billion dollar industry and while I trust all of you, SW brings up a good point, how will you secure my personal info? 

[E4 No More]

1 minute ago, A.J. Holst said:

ID and cyber theft is a multi billion dollar industry and while I trust all of you, SW brings up a good point, how will you secure my personal info? 

Also, collection of personal information exposes you to liability should you fail to keep it secure. I know of no exemptions for private transactions. 

[asu174]

1 hour ago, SWJewellTN said:

Also, collection of personal information exposes you to liability should you fail to keep it secure. I know of no exemptions for private transactions. 

Another point I forgot to mention in my first post.  How are you storing whatever info you collect from me?

BTW, if all you want is a signature, I’m fine.  I’m talking about the Bills of Sale I have seen with address, DL #, etc.  I would sign one and let you see my ID and give you my first/last name, especially since I’m not established in TN yet.  

My home address on or a pic of my license?  No.

So maybe my request for the BOSers is to just be clear on what data you will want. 

[volshayes]

All I ever ask is that a purchaser have any one of the following:

(1) A valid Tennessee HCP.

(2) A Tennessee Armed Security License.

(3) Be Law Enforcement.

That tells me that a background check has already been done.  I don't take pictures, I just want to see it and see that it is valid.  I won't remember anyone's address, DOB, etc.  I can't even remember my own much less anyone else's.  Now what were we talking about again???? 

Edited March 6, 2019 by volshayes

[owejia]

All I ever ask to see is the cash. Make sure you wipe your finger prints off also.

Edited March 6, 2019 by owejia

[Ray Z]

I'll be tickled to show my TN dl and my carry permit. I don't want to fill out receipts to continue the ATF paper trail.

[TGO David]

8 hours ago, SWJewellTN said:

Verification of identity is one thing. Giving you a photo of my DL that contains my DL number, full name, DOB, and address ain't happening. To me, ID theft is more of a threat than buying a gun from an established member. 

I have to agree with this as well.  I'll show you my permit, and I'll sign a bill of sale, but no one is getting a photo of my permit or my DL.  Sorry.

 

[TGO David]

7 hours ago, asu174 said:

BTW, if all you want is a signature, I’m fine.  I’m talking about the Bills of Sale I have seen with address, DL #, etc.  I would sign one and let you see my ID and give you my first/last name, especially since I’m not established in TN yet.  

If you're not established in TN with a TN driver's license or other proof of residency, no one can legally sell a firearm to you without transferring it to an FFL in your home state of record.

 

[TripleGGG]

What is this "selling" you speak of? 

[DaveTN]

We have had this discussion a few times. Bottom line is everyone has to do what they are ready to take responsibility for. I require a BOS and I state that clearly in my ads.

It’s illegal for me to sell a gun to an out of state resident or a minor. You can argue that point all you want, but I’m not going to argue it in court paying attorney fees.

I have a BOS that requires nothing but your name, phone number and signature. I don’t even ask for your address on it. But I do require you show me a valid TN ID (DL or HCP, your choice). I don’t need to take a picture of it. Also because I have a C&R if I’m selling a C&R item more information is required, but that’s also clearly stated in the ad.

As long as the ad’s are clear there should never be any drama.

[No_0ne]

14 hours ago, asu174 said:

And if you were an FFL, I would have no problem with that stipulation.

I'm made it my practice to be upfront about the DL requirement whenever I've bought from non-licensees.  If there's going to be an objection, I want to know about it first, rather than waste time negotiating a satisfactory deal only to find out that the other guy has a problem with me taking a pic of his DL.  If I ever actually sell a gun, I'll use that same policy in that case as well ...

[asu174]

5 hours ago, TGO David said:

If you're not established in TN with a TN driver's license or other proof of residency, no one can legally sell a firearm to you without transferring it to an FFL in your home state of record.

 

Established meaning on the forums, not legally.  I have no feedback or buddies from the board to vouch for me.  I have my TN license, a house, a job, and a TN carry permit.  My point was that most of my trading buddies in AZ all knew me from matches or previous dealings.  I was more “established” on the forums. 

[asu174]

12 hours ago, DaveTN said:

It’s illegal for me to sell a gun to an out of state resident or a minor. You can argue that point all you want, but I’m not going to argue it in court paying attorney fees  

Zero argument on that, which is why I only ever required the “ID flash” when I would sell anything.  Age hadn’t crossed my mind here, so good call out.  In AZ, DL’s under the age of 21 were printed vertically to idiotproof ID checks for bartenders, so if you flashed me an AZ ID that is horizontal with your pic, you were good.  Will look at DOB here with everything horizontal, but I have only done 1-2 transactions with guys my age or older.  

That said, can you help me understand how the BOS protects you from residency/age?  It’s the ID check that gets what you need. I genuinely don’t see the correlation.  What you describe about ID and what you capture are two different things.  Not being snarky or disrespectful.

And my point is you likely already have my name, number, car type from messages leading up to the deal.  My other point is that your BOS isnt like most others I’ve seen, so “simple BOS” versus the guy that grabbed my license and tried to start writing everything down like I was getting a ticket should be called out in the ad.  I see “BOS” and assume the latter.  I would probably be fine with yours, again, since no one here knows me.  

Edited March 7, 2019 by asu174

[DaveTN]

2 hours ago, asu174 said:

Zero argument on that, which is why I only ever required the “ID flash” when I would sell anything.  Age hadn’t crossed my mind here, so good call out.  In AZ, DL’s under the age of 21 were printed vertically to idiotproof ID checks for bartenders, so if you flashed me an AZ ID that is horizontal with your pic, you were good.  Will look at DOB here with everything horizontal, but I have only done 1-2 transactions with guys my age or older.  

That said, can you help me understand how the BOS protects you from these?  It’s the ID check that gets what you need. I genuinely don’t see the correlation.  What you describe about ID and what you capture are two different things.  Not being snarky.  Not sure what the signature does for you.

And my point is you likely already have my name, number, car type from messages leading up to the deal.  My other point is that your BOS isnt like most others I’ve seen, so “simple BOS” versus the guy that grabbed my license and tried to start writing everything down like I was getting a ticket should be called out in the ad.  I see “BOS” and assume the latter.  I would probably be fine with yours, again, since no one here knows me.  

Whether or not I know you means nothing. I have been on this forum since it started, but that doesn’t mean I know where that gun is going once it goes to a forum member. If the cops knock on my door and say “We traced this gun used in a crime to Bob. Bob says he sold it to you.” I tell them I sold it to aus174; and they move on to you. If you want to tell them you don’t know who bought it from you….so be it.

If the gun was in the hands of a convicted felon, minor, or out of state residence, I have done everything I can do to make the sale legal. I have no way to do a background check, but I can check state of residence and age. If they ask me if I have any proof I checked ID, I present a BOS you signed stating you are legally allowed to purchase a gun in this state. Short of not selling guns; that’s about all I can do.

How does a bill of sale help me? Well, in your example of someone being arrested because they sold a stolen firearm with a BOS, if the gun is traced to me and I give the Police all the information they require to continue the investigation; they likely won’t charge me. If I tell them I don’t remember who I sold it to and I’m not required to have that information the outcome may be different. However, we all run the risk of having a stolen firearm pass though our hands. You may know the guy you are getting it from but that doesn’t mean the people prior to him were honest people.

However, there are plenty of guns for sale that don’t require a BOS. Those of us that do require one, do so knowing there may be people that won’t want to do that; and that’s fine also.

[asu174]

22 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Whether or not I know you means nothing.

 

I'm mixing two topics in my last sentence.  If we were shooting buddies, you would know I am a TN resident and well over the legal age.  Although I JUST noticed my profile says Phoenix, AZ, so that looks suspicious and weird, especially given the subject matter.  Fixed.  I joined the forum 6 months before moving to TN to start getting a feel for ranges and laws and never changed it.

Appreciate your insight.  Not much more to add.  This topic always turned into a closed thread on the forum I used to belong to due to personal attacks on the people who required BOS of any kind.  

I appreciate those of you who do put BOS required in your ad versus surprises.  DaveTN's "basic BOS" probably wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but I can't say I have ever responded to a BOS ad.  I have had them sprung on me during the transaction, and every single one of them was NOT a simple name and signature.  One actually had "last 6 of SSN", but the ID grabbing attempts really pissed me off.

Seeing BOS required far more frequently here, I will likely be more prone to not immediately exit the ad and maybe ask what information the seller wants before making an offer.

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by asu174
Realized why my profile said Phoenix

[Grayfox54]

In this day and age of "Its not my fault", keeping records of where a gun came from and where it went are a good idea just to keep your own rear covered. 

I do require a BOS and say so. I also ask for one when buying a gun from an individuaI so I can account for where a gun came from. If the seller has his own form that they would rather use,I'm fine with that. I have my own form that I found somewhere on the internet which is based on the standard 4473 we're all familiar with. Yes, it does have spaces for full name, address and DL# for BOTH buyer and seller. So you get my info as well. I let you fill it out and trust that you will be truthful. As far as an ID check, I just glance at the DL to make sure that it is Tennessee and you match the picture. When the purchase/sale is done we each get a copy. My copies are kept in a specific folder which is stored in my safe. 

If you don't like that, we don't have to do business. I really don't care what you think of it.