350 Legend by Winchester

[Ehunt]

Winchester introduces a new cartridge intended for hunting. they call it the 350 Legend, introduced at Shot Show 2019. Basically they straightened a .223 case and fit a .357 round on it. Interesting

.

[Whisper]

That sounds a lot like the old Winchester .351 Self-Loading, which is a genuine obscure caliber these days.

[Quavodus]

Thats definitely interesting. I wonder what kind of velocity.

[KahrMan]

It will be interesting to see the ballistics on this round.  Not sure where this will fit in. Guess we will have to wait and see.

[xsubsailor]

Here's a little more info on it.

https://winchester.com/350-Legend

[stumpy]

If I read the info correctly the cartridge is simply a .223 case that is formed as a straight wall design without a shoulder or reduced diameter neck.  Think about a .30 Carbine that was fed Gro-Pup.  This concept has been making the rounds of the AR builders for a while now.  Some call it the 357 AR-MAX and there are other similar names but they all head in the same direction.  It will be interesting to see Winchester's ballistic data on the round - bullet weight, velocity, etc. I would love to have an AR upper in this caliber.  Starline offers .223 basic brass without the formed neck for the experimenters, but their cases in this offering are not annealed.  Length of the brass would have to match, then finding that "just right" bullet to complete the loading cycle, this all sounds like real fun coming our way.  Can't wait to see where this goes.

[Capbyrd]

It looks really cool and I was headed here to complain about the cartridge compared to 308.   From the chart on Winchester's page, the 350 Legend carries about 900 pounds of energy at 200 yards.   My 308 is twice that.  But then @stumpy reminded me that this will fit into an ar15 action.   So that changes things a little.  Unless ammo is over a dollar per round, I'd be willing to throw a few down range. 

 

[Omega]

7 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

It looks really cool and I was headed here to complain about the cartridge compared to 308.   From the chart on Winchester's page, the 350 Legend carries about 900 pounds of energy at 200 yards.   My 308 is twice that.  But then @stumpy reminded me that this will fit into an ar15 action.   So that changes things a little.  Unless ammo is over a dollar per round, I'd be willing to throw a few down range. 

 

I think the offering is geared towards the hunting crowd that is limited to straight wall center fired cartridges such as IA and MI, IL, and OH.

[Capbyrd]

19 minutes ago, Omega said:

I think the offering is geared towards the hunting crowd that is limited to straight wall center fired cartridges such as IA and MI, IL, and OH.

I didn't know that was a thing.   Those people should move or overthrow their governments. 

[Chucktshoes]

2 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

I didn't know that was a thing.   Those people should move or overthrow their governments. 

My friend Ryan is from OH. His response to that limitation is to use a .450 Bushmaster for deer. It’s a completely stupid rule. 

[Omega]

5 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

I didn't know that was a thing.   Those people should move or overthrow their governments. 

I hear they want to allow straight walled center fired cartridges during muzzle loader here in TN.  It was shot down last time, but they are reintroducing the proposal again.

[KahrMan]

I know it can be used in a ar15 but the ballistics are slightly worse than a .30-30.  A little slower, a little less energy and a little more drop.  It does have more energy than .300 bo but it also drops more.  It might find a niche where it is popular but I do not see it being a huge success.  Hopefully I am wrong but I guess we will have to wait and see. 

[Capbyrd]

Just now, KahrMan said:

I know it can be used in a ar15 but the ballistics are slightly worse than a .30-30.  A little slower, a little less energy and a little more drop.  It does have more energy than .300 bo but it also drops more.  It might find a niche where it is popular but I do not see it being a huge success.  Hopefully I am wrong but I guess we will have to wait and see. 

Where did you see that?   The Winchester site shows it carrying more energy than a 30-30 by quite a bit.  (903 compared to 781).  They also claim less recoil but don't compare penetration.  

[KahrMan]

6 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

Where did you see that?   The Winchester site shows it carrying more energy than a 30-30 by quite a bit.  (903 compared to 781).  They also claim less recoil but don't compare penetration.  

The first place I found was on gun data.org.  I then checked on Winchesters own sight.  It shows the same.  That there .30-30 is sightly better.  I also checked Hornady.  Their .30-30 was slightly worse than the .350 legend.  Here are the links:

http://gundata.org/blog/post/30-30-ballistics-chart/

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Rifle/Deer-Season-XP/X3030DS

 

[Capbyrd]

1 minute ago, KahrMan said:

The first place I found was on gun data.org.  I then checked on Winchesters own sight.  It shows the same.  That there .30-30 is sightly better.  I also checked Hornady.  Their .30-30 was slightly worse than the .350 legend.  Here are the links:

http://gundata.org/blog/post/30-30-ballistics-chart/

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Rifle/Deer-Season-XP/X3030DS

 

Interesting.   Wouldn't it be great if you could trust the source of information. 

[KahrMan]

9 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

Interesting.   Wouldn't it be great if you could trust the source of information. 

I know what you mean.  On their .350 legend page it say more energy than a .30-30 but on their .30-30 page it shows the opposite.

They didn't say more energy than ALL .30-30's so I guess it is technically correct.  That's marketing fo you. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by KahrMan

[Grayfox54]

 This cartridge is screaming for a short, straight stocked rifle along the lines of the M1 Carbine or Mini-14. Maybe even a lever gun. A nice, compact, light, smooth handling package. I'd buy one in a heartbeat!  

Edited January 23, 2019 by Grayfox54

[xsubsailor]

I'm curious to what it headspaces on. If it's not tapered and headspaces on the case mouth it could be a problem to reload unless you trim every time.

[Ehunt]

On 1/22/2019 at 4:30 PM, Whisper said:

That sounds a lot like the old Winchester .351 Self-Loading, which is a genuine obscure caliber these days.

Right. It looks to be a shorter, rimless version of the .357 Remington Maximum.

[Ehunt]

5 hours ago, xsubsailor said:

I'm curious to what it headspaces on. If it's not tapered and headspaces on the case mouth it could be a problem to reload unless you trim every time.

Might not even need to reload. Winchester is advertising their 145 grain FMJs at about $9.99 for a box of 20.

[Ehunt]

11 hours ago, stumpy said:

If I read the info correctly the cartridge is simply a .223 case that is formed as a straight wall design without a shoulder or reduced diameter neck.  Think about a .30 Carbine that was fed Gro-Pup.  This concept has been making the rounds of the AR builders for a while now.  Some call it the 357 AR-MAX and there are other similar names but they all head in the same direction.  It will be interesting to see Winchester's ballistic data on the round - bullet weight, velocity, etc. I would love to have an AR upper in this caliber.  Starline offers .223 basic brass without the formed neck for the experimenters, but their cases in this offering are not annealed.  Length of the brass would have to match, then finding that "just right" bullet to complete the loading cycle, this all sounds like real fun coming our way.  Can't wait to see where this goes.

Likewise. I am interested to see how this goes also. I contacted Faxon and they told me that they have had inquiries since Winchester unveiled it at Shot Show yesterday. Faxon said that they are passing it on to their production team. It may take off like the 224 Valkyre? ... I hope.

[Ehunt]

10 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

It looks really cool and I was headed here to complain about the cartridge compared to 308.   From the chart on Winchester's page, the 350 Legend carries about 900 pounds of energy at 200 yards.   My 308 is twice that.  But then @stumpy reminded me that this will fit into an ar15 action.   So that changes things a little.  Unless ammo is over a dollar per round, I'd be willing to throw a few down range. 

 

If this round gains enough ground for manufacturers to make AR barrels, I may just sell my AR-10 and build an AR-15 upper in .350 Legend. I think it would have to use different magazines though.

[Grayfox54]

I don't think it would need different magazines. Its pretty much just a straight walled .223. I would think it would feed just fine out of 5.56 mags. At least I hope so. 

[Ehunt]

1 hour ago, Grayfox54 said:

I don't think it would need different magazines. Its pretty much just a straight walled .223. I would think it would feed just fine out of 5.56 mags. At least I hope so. 

I hope so too. In theory just a barrel and muzzle device would be all that is needed. I would guess that it could run on a standard .223/5.56 Bolt Carrier. Only time will tell, but I hate waiting. lol.

[Ehunt]