Restaurant Carry

[DaveTN]

There is no doubt that MADD has SUPER political power, but I'm not sure how they could even go that far.....but maybe close though I guess.

I mean if I go in, have my single drink, and can't drive.....how long can't I drive? Then even if there was some sort of set time after the last drink, how would an officer actually determine how long it has been?

He won’t try to determine how long it’s been; he will just give you a choice of a BAC test or jail. Most drinkers think they can pass a test now; that’s why they take it. They have no idea if they are at .04 or .40. (I had a guy blow a .36 one time ) If you drink one beer and leave; you won’t have anything to worry about.

It’s not about being drunk; it’s about BAC.

I don’t drive after even one beer…ever.

But see… I’m not the type of guy to go out and have a “couple of beers†with dinner. A couple of pitchers maybe, or a couple of six packs, or several Jack and Sevens.

I know with absolute certainty that if I have sat in a restaurant or a bar for a couple of hours; I’m above a .08% (and so are most of you). So if I’m stopped on the way home; I am DUI (and so are most of you)

I need my driver’s license and I would like to keep my HCP permit. So if I’m drinking I have a DD or take a cab and my guns stay at home.

[Fallguy]

He won’t try to determine how long it’s been; he will just give you a choice of a BAC test or jail. Most drinkers think they can pass a test now; that’s why they take it. They have no idea if they are at .04 or .40. (I had a guy blow a .36 one time ) If you drink one beer and leave; you won’t have anything to worry about.

It’s not about being drunk; it’s about BAC.

I don’t drive after even one beer…ever.

But see… I’m not the type of guy to go out and have a “couple of beers” with dinner. A couple of pitchers maybe, or a couple of six packs, or several Jack and Sevens.

I know with absolute certainty that if I have sat in a restaurant or a bar for a couple of hours; I’m above a .08% (and so are most of you). So if I’m stopped on the way home; I am DUI (and so are most of you)

I need my driver’s license and I would like to keep my HCP permit. So if I’m drinking I have a DD or take a cab and my guns stay at home.

I love when the news or a TV program says "He has a BAC of 10%." LOL

BAC or Jail is the choice we have now though, right? I don't think there would be anyway to lower the BAC to 0.0 There is too many medications or other things (communion) that would register at least .01 or so.

I admire your ability to know your limitations and/or intentions when it comes to drinking and I acknowledge many people don't.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Fallguy

[Guest justme]

I have been to bars, strip clubs and night clubs and not touched a drink of alcohol, as a designated driver. And in those times I would like to have been carrying. And as a law abiding, tax paying citizen I think I should be able to. But it seems I cant because some people cant deal with the temptations of alcohol. And any time I do drink I put my gun up in the safe.

And I agree with Dave I will not support any legislation that allows you to drink with a gun.

But does one not put themselves into a dangerous situation when they go to a bar or strip club? A bar is made to drink, shoot pool and throw darts and a strip club--well, those are also self explanatory. If you choose to go to a bar then you choose to put yourself into a position where trouble is just knocking at your heels--add a gun to that mix and you have a recipe for disaster, and something that gives fuel to the gun grabbers to take away our rights. A restaurant is different, we go into a restaurant and we are there to eat--presumably. If I go and sit down in a restaurant then I would like to know that I at least have some means of protecting myself if a madman should come in.

However I agree--just because you are in a bar, strip club or night club does not necessarily mean you are drinking or getting drunk, but by and large that is the reason why people go to them I think. You're right of course--irresponsible people are one thing that gives fuel to gun grabbers to restrict our rights.

I am also in full agreement--I couldn't support legislation that would allow drinking alcohol--any alcohol while carrying.

[DaveTN]

I love when the news or a TV program says "He has a BAC of 10%." LOL

I’ve had drivers tell me their BAC is below “Point 8â€.

I would respond with “Good.â€.

BAC or Jail is the choice we have now though, right?

Right. Blow or deal with “Implied Consentâ€.

I don't think there would be anyway to lower the BAC to 0.0 There is too many medications or other things (communion) that would register at least .01 or so.

They don’t need to drop it to zero. It’s .04 for CDL holders (in many states) and that would pretty much catch everyone that drank more than a couple of beers. Medications aren’t a pass; people get arrested all the time for DUI on meds.

[Fallguy]

They don’t need to drop it to zero. It’s .04 for CDL holders (in many states) and that would pretty much catch everyone that drank more than a couple of beers. Medications aren’t a pass; people get arrested all the time for DUI on meds.

Yep, when I got my CDL (Class B, really need to get my A and some endorsements), had to sign a piece of paper that said I knew and understood that .04 was the BAC while driving a commercial vehicle.

So why not .04 for being armed then? But anyway....

Oh, I know medications aren't a pass, I just meant that if they tried to lower it to 0.0 that even cough syrup might make you blow more than that.

Oh...and thanks for the great debate. It is good when things can be discussed/debated as opposed to being argued and/or attacking the individual. I think you and I have been able to do this in the past as well.

[Guest Revelator]

Just to clear something up, implied consent does not mean jail. It means you lose your license for a year even if you beat the DUI charge. But if you're charged with DUI you're going to jail for the night--not because you refused to submit but because of the officer's suspicions that you are intoxicated.

2003 was when the per se intoxication level in Tennessee went down to .08 (from .10). I wouldn't be surprised if it goes down to .06 in the near future.

[Guest lci419]

With some degree of trepidation and apologies for my lengthiness, I'll chime in here... I have to admit I'm disturbed by more than a few comments I've seen in this thread. Keep in mind my comments are purely my own thoughts/preferences, and in no way do I expect that it will ever be this way, or that I engage in such practices, or that I will change anyones mind but....

My first issue is that I see a lot of generalizations coming from most people in this thread. Comments to the effect 'NOBODY can drink even one drink and handle a gun safely' or 'NOBODY needs to be in a bar with a gun because that is a recipe for disaster' and so forth. I'm not real big on generalizations because you cannot account for every person and every situation and every place that may be the exceptions. I suppose in a grander sense, I am disappointed that so many of my fellow gun owners are quick to forget and/or dismiss one of the many things I consider to be paramount to our liberties...accountability for our own actions.

If Joe Ordinary goes into a bar while armed and throws back a few drinks, odds are exceptionally good he's not going to be pulling out his pistol and blowing holes in the ceilings, walls, and other patrons. From a historical standpoint (nigh on 200 years of American history prior to current draconian gun laws) this was common practice and an irrefutable fact. Not speculation. Not fear mongering. Not propaganda. Fact.

Now you might counter "oh yeah? look at saloons in the old west and see what kind of gunplay took place, etc., etc., etc." Isn't that the EXACT argument that anti-gunners use to hamstring us at every turn anyway? The is the old "blood in the streets" argument which again, historically speaking, is overwhelmingly a creation of Hollwood western films and our own imaginations. The real truth is that guns were and are (you would be surprised at how many people even today carry in bars whether legally or illegally) carried into such establishments quite commonly with no ill effects. A drink or two, does not turn an ordinarily peaceful law abiding citizen into a bellowing, raging, drunk with blood in his eye and murder in his heart.

But what if?...yes, there were and will be instances of Joe Troublemaker pulling out his gun and threatening others and potentially wreaking untold havoc in such a situation. But here is where personal accountability comes into play, you punish him to the fullest extent of the law. Make Joe Troublemaker pay for his transgressions. Don't punish Joe Ordinary who just happened to be out with his girl or buddies and was responsible gun owner who didn't behave in such a way. Isn't this the argument we make regarding "gun free zones" such as shopping malls etc.? Joe Troublemaker by default has made himself a criminal and he should be treated as such. I seriously doubt that if he were punished by some laws with real teeth, there would be a lot of copycats. Personal responsibilty and accountability is the key my friends.

Maybe this all sounds nuts, and I'm totally irrational, but I've never read in the "shall not be infringed" section anything about "unless drinking or in a bar."

Perhaps my perspective on this is a bit different, because I spend a good percentage of my time working in such establishments. Something I've not seen addressed, is people like me who are musicians (something that both Nashville and Memphis have a lot of) that work late at night, carrying large sums of cash after leaving the bars and have to walk to often poorly lit locations with few if any witnesses. Why should we (legal carriers) who are in such profession, have to be denied our right to self defense? That's exactly what you're doing if we get the percentage based system that some seem to be pushing for. You are taking away MY right to defend myself in circumstances beyond my control.

So personally, I don't want to see any restaurant carry bills passed unless it's all or nothing. Sorry for you guys that only want to go to Applebees or hang out a the bowling alley, but that's the way I feel about it. I have no sympathy for your position, because it is a selfish one of "I've got mine." If we all want to unfiy and push for carry in establishments that serve alcohol regardless of percentage of sales, I'm all for it. But if you want to piecemeal it to assuage the anti-gun crowd...well I can't support that and would rather see you suffer just as much as those of us who can't carry in bars. Let's be honest folks, those people, the real antis, hate us and aren't going to be sympathetic to us regardless of percentages. No matter how many positive gun owner stories, or for that matter, negative gun owner stories hit the press, they aren't going to like us or change any more than we would to their position.

As for the being able to drink while carrying, I personally have no problem with it as long as you function within the boundaries of the law, but I also realize the chance of that being legalized are slim to none, so DON'T DO IT. Meanwhile, until the time these things come to pass, I obey the law, don't carry where alcohol is served, don't drink while carrying, and pray to God I don't get mugged or worse on my way home after work.

[Guest gunslinger707]

Yep, when I got my CDL (Class B, really need to get my A and some endorsements), had to sign a piece of paper that said I knew and understood that .04 was the BAC while driving a commercial vehicle.

So why not .04 for being armed then? But anyway....

Oh, I know medications aren't a pass, I just meant that if they tried to lower it to 0.0 that even cough syrup might make you blow more than that.

Oh...and thanks for the great debate. It is good when things can be discussed/debated as opposed to being argued and/or attacking the individual. I think you and I have been able to do this in the past as well.

Can you say nyquil? and you're right about the CDL's ben there done that:)

[Guest nraforlife]

If one wants to drink and carry, stay home sit in the lazy boy and have at it. Otherwise, God help the fool that shoots an innocent and has even a little hint of alcohol in their bloodstream. They just rolled snake eyes and lost everything they own as a jury is going to nail their arse to the wall. There would be a LOT of gun owners standing in line to help the police build the jail on top of the fool.

Edited February 7, 2009 by nraforlife

[DaveTN]

Just to clear something up, implied consent does not mean jail.

My statement was not meant to imply jail time. What I meant was that if you refuse to blow you are going to be arrested and taken in to be booked.

I tell my friends and family that if you find yourself in that situation; don’t blow.

Don’t blow unless you are absolutely sure your BAC is below .08. And how would they know that?.... they don’t.

I have arrested many DUI’s and helped process many more. I have never (that I can remember) seen anyone blow less than .10%

However… it was a long time ago and we were arresting drunk drivers.

Chances are pretty good that unless you are a Tennessee Titian you will be convicted of DUI if you go to court. However… if this is your first arrest chances are pretty good that you will be offered a plea agreement that could even involve court supervision. That could be hampered by a high BAC.

I would be curious to know if this is something along the lines of what you tell your clients.

Here’s a question I have about Tennessee law.

As a cop in Illinois I would tell people that if they blew less than .10% I would just ticket them for the cause of the initial stop and let them go. Of course that never happened, but I could do that.

They tell me that now in many states even if you blow and pass, you are still charged with DUI; is that the case in Tennessee?

I don’t want anyone to construe my statements as supporting drinking and driving; I don’t. As I said I don’t drive even after one beer. However… once you are caught the danger you are causing to the public is over; you are off the street. Now it’s just a matter of how long you are going to lose your license for or how much you are going to pay to keep them.

[Guest Revelator]

If a driver blows less than .08 I guess they could be charged but I've never heard of it. Probably doesn't happen often but it is possible. .08 is not a magic, black and white number. It is simply a legal presumption. Over .08 you could still be found not guilty or get it dismissed or reduced, so I could see being charged for under .08. I imagine the other evidence would have to be strong. For instance, the videotape would have to show the driver falling-down drunk and the officer would have verify that with their testimony.

Whether the person is convicted is going to depend on many things. If they didn't submit and they look pretty good on the video, there's a good chance it'll get reduced to reckless driving. That's my experience here in Memphis. If they did submit, well, it's going to be a lot tougher. But I recently represented a guy who had a .13 and we got it reduced to reckless. He actually did not submit; he wrecked his car into a tree, started knocking on doors of the neighborhood he was in, and the police were called. He'd been injured so they took him to the hospital and drew his blood (which they can do without your permission). His one saving grace was that he is in the National Guard and is set to deploy to Iraq later this year. The prosecutor took note of this and agreed to reduce.

Dave, standard first offense punishment in Tennessee is 48 hours jail, 11 months and 27 days probation, fine, alcohol safety school, highway litter pickup, and loss of license for one year. If your BAC is .20 or more it's 7 days jail, and if you had a child in the car with you at the time it's 30 days.

[Guest gunslinger707]

If one wants to drink and carry, stay home sit in the lazy boy and have at it. Otherwise, God help the fool that shoots an innocent and has even a little hint of alcohol in their bloodstream. They just rolled snake eyes and lost everything they own as a jury is going to nail their arse to the wall. There would be a LOT of gun owners standing in line to help the police build the jail on top of the fool.

NRA i agree completely with this statement.Personally i feel the same about Drinking and Driving !

[Falcon1]

So personally, I don't want to see any restaurant carry bills passed unless it's all or nothing. Sorry for you guys that only want to go to Applebees or hang out a the bowling alley, but that's the way I feel about it. I have no sympathy for your position, because it is a selfish one of "I've got mine." If we all want to unfiy and push for carry in establishments that serve alcohol regardless of percentage of sales, I'm all for it. But if you want to piecemeal it to assuage the anti-gun crowd...well I can't support that and would rather see you suffer just as much as those of us who can't carry in bars. Let's be honest folks, those people, the real antis, hate us and aren't going to be sympathetic to us regardless of percentages. No matter how many positive gun owner stories, or for that matter, negative gun owner stories hit the press, they aren't going to like us or change any more than we would to their position.

From a philosophical standpoint, I understand completely. But politics is another matter...if concealed carry had been sought in Tennessee this way, there would likely be a third state that still doesn't allow it along with Wisconsin and Illinois.

When we prove to the good, but scared, citizens of Tennessee that there is no danger to be feared from restaurant carry, then we pick the next apple from the tree.

"Small moves, Ellie, small moves." OMO, YMMV....

[Guest 270win]

There are some new bills out...some relatively clean that are much better than the % food requirement. We might get a decent clean bill that will pass the house and senate and get signed into law by the governor.