I now own an H&K.

[The Rabbi]

Except you can get .357mag performance out of a 9mm by using +P+ ammo and still retain all the other advantages.

Of course, you can get .357mag performance out of a .357mag revolver (and still retain the capacity to use cheap .38 for practice)and to heck with malfunction drills and a host of other problems. You can't solve it in 6 (or 7 or 8) you'll need more than a handgun anyway.

[TGO David]

I've started carrying my .30-06 Remington rifle. I figure it's a part of the .30 caliber projectile family too and I know that it's terminal ballistics far outweigh those of the 9mm and .38spl.

Of course this forces me to try "open carry" so... I guess it's time for me to make that nachos run to Wal-Mart with the Remington slung over my shoulder.

[The Rabbi]

I've started carrying my .30-06 Remington rifle. I figure it's a part of the .30 caliber projectile family too and I know that it's terminal ballistics far outweigh those of the 9mm and .38spl.

Of course this forces me to try "open carry" so... I guess it's time for me to make that nachos run to Wal-Mart with the Remington slung over my shoulder.

30-06? No, you need something with some stopping power. I've been toting a Mare's Leg in 45-70. Remember, if you bring a gun to fight, you can use any caliber as long as it starts with a 4.

[molonlabetn]

Actually it's because the Smith Model 19 comes in .357. I wouldnt have any problem carrying a Model 15, which is the same thing in .38.

Heck, Metro Nashville carried the Model 64 .38spc until the early 1990s.

And my whole point so far has been that the difference in speed between a .357SIG in a standard loading and a 9mm +P+ is pretty negligble.

The difference between the velocity of std pressure 9mm and 9mm +p+ is just as 'negligable'... Why batter the frame of your pistol, or invite a kB? And, I've never seen 9mm +p+ which was cheaper or more available than what I can get hot .357sig for... There is a big difference, whether you want to push a 20% heavier projectile just a fast, or push the same weight projectile 10% faster. The loads are out there, it's not balanced to compare downloaded .357sig with the hottest 9mm available... But even cheap S&B .357sig will push a 140gr projectile to 1350fps. And, Winchester White Box has 500+ft-lb at the muzzle... I'd like to see any 9mm do that for the same price...

.38special is just fine for what it does... gives mediocre performance with managable recoil. Even it isn't as cheap to shoot, generally, as 9mm... and with negligably lower performance. Which is better? What if 9mm cost more?

[dcloudy777]

I'm not the biggest .357SIG fan in the world either, but 1250fps is about 150fps shy of .357Mag performance using 125-130gr bullets. Even the ISPC open racers, among many of whom the "Major 9" is the new darling, are topping out at around 1350fps or so, and that's with purpose-built space guns engineered and sprung for the higher pressures. You cannot (safely) replicate .357Mag ballistics out of a 9mm case, not unless you compare it to some of the watered-down loads available from commercially for the magnum. Further, when loaded to its potential, the .357 easily tops 1500fps with the same 125gr projectiles, leaving the 9mm and the .357SIG way behind. That being said, the +P+ 127gr Ranger load from Winchester is a very impressive acheivement, and definitely an excellent choice for social purposes.

Now, IMHO, the .357SIG gives up more to the .40S&W in terms of versatility and load selection than it does to the 9mm. The 135gr .40 loads come very close to .357SIG velocities, but the .40 retains the ability to handle much heavier bullets, up to 200grains. The major manufacturers have limited the .357SIG to the 125gr load, with only specialty outfits like Double Tap offering 115gr and 147gr chamberings. In short, the .357SIG might be able to do a little more than the 9mm, but the .40 can do everything the .357SIG can do and a whole lot more.

Of course, shot placement is approximately 9,546,357.045 time more important, but caliber wars are fun... besides, the 10mm leaves them all in the dust...

DanO

[Donnie]

You'd bring up that 10mm stuff wouldn't you...................

[Guest GlocKingTN]

Congrats on the new toy!

[molonlabetn]

...besides, the 10mm leaves them all in the dust...

DanO

Got me there ... But I want one of those too!

I think that it is also important to point out, that even though some of the hot 135gr .40s&w loads achieve .357sig velocity, the penetration of those loads do not mimic the .357sig... probably due to the greater density vs surface area of the smaller projectile.

Once a projectile is carrying 600+ ft-lb of energy... there is little question that it will do major damage wherever it impacts!

The comparison between 9mm and .357sig is very similar to the comparison between .40s&w and 10mm.

[Marswolf]

I just love statistics wars. Read a book in college called How To Lie With Statistics.

As well as all the technical stuff, it pays to talk to people who use different handguns and different calibers. Word of mouth pretty much killed the 10mm although I know there are all those folks out there who won't have anything else. The 40 S&W has done well in that regard and the 357 SIG is getting good marks.

I've always liked the 9mm but a time came when for some uses I decided I needed something more modern for urban use. I feel the same way for field use now. It's time for something not just newer, but actually better.

And as far as only needing 6-8 rounds in a fight...I've been know to carry 66 rounds of 40 S&W in the handgun and on my belt and a bunch more than that of 9mm. But my fights may not be the same as yours.

[The Rabbi]

The difference between the velocity of std pressure 9mm and 9mm +p+ is just as 'negligable'... Why batter the frame of your pistol, or invite a kB? And, I've never seen 9mm +p+ which was cheaper or more available than what I can get hot .357sig for... There is a big difference, whether you want to push a 20% heavier projectile just a fast, or push the same weight projectile 10% faster. The loads are out there, it's not balanced to compare downloaded .357sig with the hottest 9mm available... But even cheap S&B .357sig will push a 140gr projectile to 1350fps. And, Winchester White Box has 500+ft-lb at the muzzle... I'd like to see any 9mm do that for the same price...

.38special is just fine for what it does... gives mediocre performance with managable recoil. Even it isn't as cheap to shoot, generally, as 9mm... and with negligably lower performance. Which is better? What if 9mm cost more?

You need to compare apples to apples. True, premium 9mm ammo will cost every bit of what premium .357s ammo will. But how much of that stuff does anyone use? 1 box a month? Maybe. The cost savings comes in using the practice ammo. You will never find cheap practice ammo for .357s that doesnt come out of your reloading machine. For some people that isnt an issue. OK.

As for battering the frame of a 9mm, you arent going to shoot enough +P+ to make much of a difference. If someone wants to shoot really hot loads, get a .357s. Or a 10mm for that matter.

As for KBs, I wonder how many we're going to see out of the Glocks.

[Urse]

Of course, shot placement is approximately 9,546,357.045 time more important, but caliber wars are fun... besides, the 10mm leaves them all in the dust...

DanO

+1:up:

[Guest Steelharp]

GlocKingTN, thanks for commenting (one of the few, I might add) on the original post...

[dunndw]

Steelharp...I have a small suggestion. Unless you have the full size USP, don't go with the M2 light. I picked one up for my Compact and It doesn't fix (in my opinion) right. The light hangs off the front of the gun and look like it was kinda wedged on there. I got pissed last night when it showed up and picked up a TRL-2 to hand on my ProMag adapter. I paid WAY too much for the TRL-2 by getting it locally..but I was in a foul mood.

I'm going to pickup a GG&G adapter this weekend (hopefully) at the gun show...and try to send the dang M2 back.

[dunndw]

Here's a good pic I found of the M2 on the compact to illustrate my point.

I don't like the way it hangs over the barrel, and it fits like crap around the trigger guard.

[Donnie]

Most fullsize lights are going to stick out pretty far in front of the gun.

You might want to consider an X2 if you want it closer to the front of the gun.

[dunndw]

I don't mind the light...but the way to mount kinda hangs off the front is what got me.

[Guest Terry J]

To comment on the original post Nice new toy. I love new toys.

To comment on everybody elses posts comparing 9mm and 357 sig power differences heres something real. My brother brought a old server case over to the house and there was a 3/16 possibly 1/4inch (didnt actually break out the micrometer and measure) stainless steel plate in it that we pulled out for a bit of penetration statistics. Now a sks will go right through it and not even leave a dint just a hole a 9mm no matter what you load it with will not penetrate it. It leaves dents only. My 357 sig loaded with 115grn hollow points will penetrate 8 out of 10 rounds with the other 2 braking a hole but not actually going through. Now im not a statistics expert by any means but that tells me the 357 sig has more power than any 9mm round ive shot or loaded. Now what i didnt mention is if you want pure stopping power and penetration my 454 casull with the 8 3/4 inch barrel did the best job on the piece of steel with an huge hole and dint everytime.

[The Rabbi]

thanks. If I'm ever attacked by a piece of 1/4 in stainless steel I'll know what gun to use.

[molonlabetn]

What if you have to fire under stress through a car door, windshield, or other barrier?

It happens.

I'm sure you'd prefer to have .357mag over .38special in the same hypothetical situation, with a revolver... Right?

[The Rabbi]

A car door or windshield is not a 1/4" piece of stainless steel.

As for "it happens", I'll bet no one could make a list of more than a dozen times in 20 years that a private citizen has had to do that. (Yeah, yeah, "my brother in law's cousin once told me....")

You have better odds dying from anthrax.

In any case "more penetration" does not necessarily equal "more effective." In fact, PDs stopped using the 158gr .357mag round and went to the light 125gr precisely because over penetration meant not enough energy was getting dumped into the targets.

I'll spend 99.999% of my time at the range and .0001% of my time involved in a combat shooting, and hopefully zero percent. So why should I spend the extra money on a caliber that is expensive to shoot and probably more wearing on the gun?

[Guest Terry J]

Well i look at it this way. I have a 9mm a .357 sig 357 mag a 40 and 454. I shoot them all and I like all of them. I have never run into a situation where ive had to use one of them but if i do itll be the one most accessible that gets used. When it comes down to it if 5-17 rounds of whatever dont stop whatever then you probably shouldnt have a gun.

[molonlabetn]

A car door or windshield is not a 1/4" piece of stainless steel.

As for "it happens", I'll bet no one could make a list of more than a dozen times in 20 years that a private citizen has had to do that. (Yeah, yeah, "my brother in law's cousin once told me....")

You have better odds dying from anthrax.

In any case "more penetration" does not necessarily equal "more effective." In fact, PDs stopped using the 158gr .357mag round and went to the light 125gr precisely because over penetration meant not enough energy was getting dumped into the targets....

That is true, but even so, the .357sig (and magnum) have shown superior terminal performance after passing through barriers... And less potencity to ricochet.

I'll take a clean through-and-through vs. an un-predictable ricochet any-day!

The odds are pretty low that any of us will have to use our weapons in self-defense, much less shoot through barriers... but there's truth in the saying "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it". The same applies to having an effective caliber as having a weapon at all.

I doesn't surprise me that LEOs found modern 125gr JHPs performed better, terminally, than the old 158gr LRN loads... Surprisingly, this was the load which the .357sig is designed to emulate.

[The Rabbi]

My 9mm Lapua CEPP extras wont ricochet.

As for having it and not needing it, I need cheap practice ammo to maintain any proficiency. And I wont get that in .357sig.

Actually even the .357mag 158gr sjhp wouldnt work too well from over-penetration.

[Guest Len]

Mikey D #1: Nice new toy. Congrats, a fine weapon.

Mikey D #2: I'm with Mars on the light issue. Get yourself a kick-but Sure-Fire, use it in your off hand, and be done with it. Learned my lesson the expensive way.

Caliber war:

Just one question: Why have the .45 fans not weighed in yet?

[The Rabbi]

Caliber war:

Just one question: Why have the .45 fans not weighed in yet?

Because they are all too old to type:D

What is it someone said?

One guy will tell you why he thinks the .40 cal is the best.

Another guy will tell you why the .357sig is best.

And that old guy in the corner doesnt say much but keeps cleaning his Model 10 and chuckling like a maniac.