I now own an H&K.

[Guest Steelharp]

Thanks to my terrific FFL (you're welcome, Bill), I was actually able to afford an H&K USP 9mm. Now... what kinda light attaches to that rail? Never seen one without a slot in it...

[Marswolf]

First, congratulations on getting the USP.

The flippant answer (and the correct one in my opinion) to the question of what light goes on the rail is "none." The light goes in your off hand. :D

Insight Technology makes the M2 UTL Light.

There are also adapters if you already have a Glock light and want it use on the USP.

I find that lights on guns cause problems in drawing and holstering as well as being a convenient aim point for the bad guys and it prevents sweeping the area for other BGs while you hold aim on one of them. I think that lights for pistol use belong off of the gun. Making a wild guess, I'd say half the people here will agree with me and half will think I'm nuts.

[Guest Steelharp]

Mars, thanks. You're probably right. The only time I have an attached light on mine is at night, at home, next to the bed. Otherwise, the light is off on the cabinet. Never even thought about it from the angle you presented; that's why talk is good.

[The Rabbi]

Mikey, you woulda been better off with a SIG P226 in 9mm.....

[molonlabetn]

Which variant did you get?

SA/DA decock

SA/DA safety

LEM...

?

[Guest Steelharp]

SA/DA decock, I think... SIG's just don't fit me...

[Marswolf]

After going through a bunch of carry handguns, including a Glock and SIG (and having carried a Beretta 92 for many years), I settled on the USP and haven't been sorry.

I could recommend the Beretta and SIG but to me the winner is the USP. But I priced P2000s yesterday at a couple of places. I'd like to try a 357 SIG for a while and they don't make them in full size USPs. I've been considering something in a SIG, but the action on the P2000 is very good.

[molonlabetn]

A .357sig P2000 LEM is what I would like to replace my P239 with...

Phenominal cartridge, and a phenominal platform.

[dunndw]

The M2 UTL has a HK specific model. There is a GG&G adapter that will let any light attach to the HK. Guns and Leather has one of the adapters for both the full size and the compact USPs in house for around 50.00 If you already have a light then that would be the most cost effective way to go about it.

If you don't have a light, and the HK is the only railed pistol you have (like me) then Amazon (of all places) has the M2 UTL for sale as well

http://www.amazon.com/Insight-Technology-Universal-Tactical-HKL-000-A5/dp/B000PW5H8S/ref=sr_1_1/102-6383428-9284902?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1182262408&sr=8-1

[The Rabbi]

A .357sig P2000 LEM is what I would like to replace my P239 with...

Phenominal cartridge, and a phenominal platform.

I shot a P239 in .357. It was nice enough. But I cannot understand the appeal of the cartridge. In the Gold Dot, it is a 125gr .36cal bullet going about 1350 fps. The Gold Dot 9mm +P+ is a 124gr .36cal bullet going about 1300 fps. So what has anyone gained going to a more expensive caliber that offers fewer ammo choices?

[molonlabetn]

I shot a P239 in .357. It was nice enough. But I cannot understand the appeal of the cartridge. In the Gold Dot, it is a 125gr .36cal bullet going about 1350 fps. The Gold Dot 9mm +P+ is a 124gr .36cal bullet going about 1300 fps. So what has anyone gained going to a more expensive caliber that offers fewer ammo choices?

Using the Double-Tap ammo that I buy, the velocity is more like 1550fps... that's a HUGE step-up from 9mm +p (or even +p+). Most ammo manufacturers use fast (cheap) powder, with fillers in it, that produces spec pressure, but not optimum propulsion.

Mostly, I carry 147gr Double-Tap loads which produce the velocity of lighter, hot 9mm loads.

Some DT loads for comparison:

Caliber : 9mm+P

Bullet : Speer Gold Dot JHP

Ballistics : 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. 4.5" barrel. 1395fps from a 4.0" barrel

Caliber : .357 Sig

Bullet : 115gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP

Ballistics : 1550fps / 614 ft. lbs. 4"bbl

3.5" barrel - 1494fps

4.5" barrel - 1612fps

that's a 200fps difference with the same bullets... Not insignificant by any means!

The issue about more expensive/harder-to-find practice ammo is valid... But, it's worth it as long as this isn't a primary plinking gun. Actually though, from Double-Tap, all of their pistol calibers are about the same price... which is cheaper per 50 than most other defensive loads are available in boxes of 20.

[The Rabbi]

Actually their web site lists 1296fps out of a 4" barrel for the 147gr stuff.

My next question is whether that is really going to be more effective than a +P+ 9mm.

Logic would suggest that more mass + higher velocity = more wounding. But it isnt necessarily so. Every bullet has an optimum velocity. Too slow and it wont penetrate and expand. Too fast and it will overpenetrate and fragment.

Double Tap (and Buffalo Bore does the same thing btw) has taken a bullet designed for 9mm subsonic and accelarated it beyond what is was designed to do.

I have not seen any unbiased studies of their ammo. And obviously personal comfort with the caliber and the particular round will be the deciding factor.

I just think that while .357SIG is a fine enough round it doesnt do much that can't be done already with existing 9mm loads.

Sorry for the hijack. Mikey, enjoy your gun.

[molonlabetn]

Actually their web site lists 1296fps out of a 4" barrel for the 147gr stuff.

My next question is whether that is really going to be more effective than a +P+ 9mm.

Logic would suggest that more mass + higher velocity = more wounding. But it isnt necessarily so. Every bullet has an optimum velocity. Too slow and it wont penetrate and expand. Too fast and it will overpenetrate and fragment.

Double Tap (and Buffalo Bore does the same thing btw) has taken a bullet designed for 9mm subsonic and accelarated it beyond what is was designed to do.

I have not seen any unbiased studies of their ammo. And obviously personal comfort with the caliber and the particular round will be the deciding factor.

I just think that while .357SIG is a fine enough round it doesnt do much that can't be done already with existing 9mm loads.

Sorry for the hijack. Mikey, enjoy your gun.

That's why I use 147gr stuff primarily, so that it won't fragment... but effectiveness-wise, that is like comparing a 110gr .38 special load to a 158gr .357 magnum load and saying that there won't be much difference in effectiveness.

[The Rabbi]

Actually there probably wont be much. Not nearly as much as people might imagine, given the other variables in a shooting.

And PDs went away from the 158gr .357mag in favor of the 125gr, I suspect because over-penetration was an issue.

[molonlabetn]

Perhaps not, but it's certainly enough of a difference for many LE orgs to take notice and opt for the cartridge over any of the 'holy trinity' (9mm, .40, .45).

And I agree with you about the other variables... shot placement is more important that a few extra fps, any day. My emphasis is based on equivalent proficiency with any chosen load, which, absent that variable has shown the .357sig (even using more anemic loads than DT produces) to be more effective overall than 9mm, .40s&w and the venerable .45acp, per FBI and independent testing.

[Marswolf]

My interest in 357 SIG is to get two guns down to one. I use a 40 S&W for street use and 9mm for field use out to 100 yards or a bit more. Standard ammunition will generally work for what I need. The 357 SIG gives better penetration at urban distances than the 40 S&W and a flatter trajectory than the 9mm at distance. If I soup it up a bit, it gets even better.

But I see your point Rabbi. For a lot of people a higher pressure round is all they need.

[Marswolf]

Forgot to mention that http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=15840 has the M2 lights cheaper than Amazon if you just insist on getting one.

[The Rabbi]

But I see your point Rabbi. For a lot of people a higher pressure round is all they need.

The advantages of the 9mm over the .357Sig imvho greatly outweigh the advantages of the .357.

It would be like a family of 6 opting for a Porsche over a mini-van just because the Porsche will go faster.

[Marswolf]

I'm not sure I see a performance disadvantage in the 357 SIG rather than 9mm. In my world there really isn't anything that over-penetrates or is too accurate at distance. The chief disadvantage I see of the 357 SIG is ready availability of the 9mm about anywhere in the world.

[The Rabbi]

The advantages are:

-Availability wherever ammo is sold.

-Availability of a wide variety of bullet styles, weights, and velocities

-Availability of cheap practice ammo.

-Generally higher capacity in comparable size magazines.

The advantage of the .357SIG (and only with some selected loads) is:

-It goes faster.

-It sounds kewl/cutting edge.

Your call.

I'll also allow that I personally carry a .357magnum loaded with 158gr bullets, mainly because I find the 125gr loads too unpleasant to shoot.

[Marswolf]

-It sounds kewl/cutting edge.

I'll admit to being a techie, but never considered myself cool.

[Donnie]

So Rabbi, why do you carry a .357mag instead of a .38 Special???

I bet it has something to do with the .357 hurling the same bullet faster, kinda like what .357sig has over 9mm.

[The Rabbi]

So Rabbi, why do you carry a .357mag instead of a .38 Special???

I bet it has something to do with the .357 hurling the same bullet faster, kinda like what .357sig has over 9mm.

Actually it's because the Smith Model 19 comes in .357. I wouldnt have any problem carrying a Model 15, which is the same thing in .38.

Heck, Metro Nashville carried the Model 64 .38spc until the early 1990s.

And my whole point so far has been that the difference in speed between a .357SIG in a standard loading and a 9mm +P+ is pretty negligble.

[Marswolf]

I think Hancock County still uses 38spl.

[molonlabetn]

The advantages are:

-Availability wherever ammo is sold.

-Availability of a wide variety of bullet styles, weights, and velocities

-Availability of cheap practice ammo.

-Generally higher capacity in comparable size magazines.

The advantage of the .357SIG (and only with some selected loads) is:

-It goes faster.

-It sounds kewl/cutting edge.

Your call.

I'll also allow that I personally carry a .357magnum loaded with 158gr bullets, mainly because I find the 125gr loads too unpleasant to shoot.

There are very few viable pistol calibers which can match the price/availability of 9mm! Not .45acp, not .40s&w, not even .357magnum... So, it's pretty academic that ANY choice other than 9mm for defensive purposes is due to a desire for greater performance.

Specifically, .357sig can (and is) loaded with any projectile available for 9mm... since they are the same.

The magazine capacity issue really isn't... Since in most compact pistols, there's only a 1-2 cartridge capacity difference (USPc: 13+1 vs 12+1, P229: 13+1 vs 12+1, Glock: 15+1 vs 13+1). One gives up much more capacity to carry a .45... or a revolver, for that matter... Full size pistols have slightly more disparity, but there are plenty of 15+1 .40 & .357 pistols in this category, as well... It just depends on the platform the shooter chooses.

Why not opt for .357magnum performance, when one can do so in a package which is no larger than a 9mm, with similar capacity, and has less perceived recoil than the .357mag? The premium carry ammo is no more expensive... And believe it or not, bulk ammo in this caliber is generally as cheap as .45acp... plenty of people shoot that caliber recreation ally (I do).

Besides, as more departments move to this chambering, and more shooters get on-board, the price will come down... it has, just in the last few years. (I've been shooting .357sig for 5 years, and was originally paying $23 per 50rd box, and now I can get it $10 cheaper)

I understand your point of view, I really do (had similar thoughts at first, myself)... but after doing some research, I have no qualms with sticking to what works for me, the Secret Service, and hundreds of other depts around the country.

So, everybody... buy a pistol chambered for .357sig! Help me reduce the cost of my practice ammo! Because, in every other way, .357sig combines the best aspects of 9mm and .40s&w, plus some... And believe me, if .38super was more mainstream, I would be carrying that for the same reasons set forth above.