I don't understand this???

[bersaguy]

It is getting to where every time you listen to the news you will hear of between 1&3 murder/suicides. If a person is going to take their own life they have a mental issue to begin with. I don't understand why they think they have to kill someone along with themselves. During general dicussions with friends the question has come up once and someone asked if anyone has ever considered even remotely about comitting suicide. My reply was HELL NO!! I love myself to much. They said just say you would think about it, would you want to kill someone with you? I finally ask him if he was considering doing it cause he was full of questions about it. There was about 4 or 5 of us that were just sitting around talking when the subject came up. I told him I would not take my own life under any conditions and I damn sure would not take a loved one or anyone else with me. That kind of ended the discussion on it. The guy was a friend and when he left he was with another friend. I called the friend that left with him later and ask him if he brought the subject up on the way home and he said no. We all kept an eye on him for a while and that was over a year ago and he has never brought the issue back up at any other gatherings. I wonder if there are really any warning signs people can look for when someone might be leaning that way............... 

[tacops]

I will first say, I am no expert and I am certainly not a mental health professional by any stretch.  I do have a lot of past experience conducting death investigations to include suicide. There are many assorted warning signs.  Unfortunately they typically aren't recognized until viewed through hindsight.  The signs can be as varied as the personalities from which they are displayed and often are not really displayed at all.  I realize that is pretty vague but there is no constant or absolute in human behavior.  Many people make statements such as "I don't understand why", "I would never do that" etc.  Most of us in our current state of mind would not do such, nor would the individual who just did, if they were in our current state of mind.  Yet they were in a very troubled state of mind and not seeing the world or their challenges in a manner that they could handle.  They become overwhelmed to the point that suicide seems like a viable choice to end the mental, emotional or physical pain that has become such a burden to them.  To them, at that time in their lives, it makes sense.  I have seen the following:

• Person who has been moody for days, weeks or months suddenly seem to be on top of the world and happy as they can be.  People around them were elated to see that they "got a handle on whatever was bothering them".  Only to hear of their demise soon after.  The person had been wrestling with a difficult decision to stay or go.  They actually were relieved and happy for a few days after they made up their mind, which eased the torment of the decision to go.
• Liquidation - some people suddenly start liquidating assets.  By assets I mean items that they previously emotionally valued such as giving a friend their favorite handgun, knife, 1st edition book etc. that they always treasured and out of the blue decided to just give it to a friend that had admired it.  If you watch, they typically will be distributing such items to more than one person and are very selective as to who gets what.
• "Doesn't matter" - A usually meticulous individual begins to not care for property, home or self appearance etc.  They have reached a frame of mind that it just doesn't matter any more.
• Pet adoption - I have seen people very selectively find new homes for their beloved pets with the excuse of "I just can't care for them anymore" when their has been no real indication of decline of their ability to do so.  They just want to make sure the pet is properly placed in a loving home before they check out.
• Sudden exclusive obsession with dark themed movies, music, books etc.
• A normally extroverted person suddenly becomes introverted for an extended period of time.
• A new habit developed of spending periods of time alone near bodies of water "reflecting" or "meditating" when this was not common before.  Being near water is relaxing and soothing to many people.  Many suicides are committed near bodies of water such as the shorelines of lakes and rivers.
• Declining mood as the anniversary of the loss of a loved one draws near.  Often the anniversary of a suicide previously committed by a loved one.
• Holidays - Thanksgiving and Christmas, though joyous occasions to most, bring deep sadness and loneliness for many.  Sad to say, but the holidays are often referred to as "suicide season" by many.

I have seen all of the above more than once and there are many more possible indications but none are really absolute indications.  As you read the above a second time you realize what I mean by being recognized through hindsight.  All of these actions are far more recognizable through reflection after the fact.  Sorry to have gotten so long winded on the reply.  I have investigated many suicides over the years and spent a lot of time with families after the fact.  I learned not to be judgmental because in most cases the individual was as "normal" as anybody else until their burdens mentally pushed them to such.  I have also seen many remaining friends and family burden themselves with unwarranted guilt because they felt "they should have seen it", when in fact nobody saw it coming and hindsight is 20-20.  The guilt was typically unwarranted.

Edited December 5, 2018 by tacops
grammer

[Defender]

I lost my best friend to suicide a couple years ago, on Christmas Day.  He was 68, fully retired and no financial worries at all,  with some health issues, but not terrible or life threatening ones.  Life was good.  We talked daily and although he was retired, we met at least weekly for lunch and a gunshop visit or a gunshow.  As close friends sometimes do, we had talked about many things during the course of our friendship, and in the distant past,  including suicide.  He and I had both made the comment, usually after reading about a suicide in the news, that we would never do that, unless that we were to be suffering from some incurable, painfully unbearable disease like end stage cancer or something, that we might consider it.  Flash forward to the week of his death...he had the flu or a cold and was taking meds, along with some fairly minor pain meds due to his hip.   Around that time, I had sold my pocket pistol to fund another gun purchase, and was jonesing over not having a pocket pistol, lol.  On Christmas day, he had told me to come over and borrow one of his Shields until I could find one i liked to buy.  That very evening, his wife frantically called me telling me he had just blown his brains out.  I got there about the same time the cops did, and ended up cleaning up the scene as soon as his body was removed.  She said they had been in the garage, where they smoke, and she had went inside to make them a sandwich, when she heard a noise, and ran back out to see him sprawled in his chair, dead.  All this to say, that sometimes the signs just arent there.  Maybe sometimes they are, but i was probably closer to this guy in some ways than his wife, and she nor I saw anything to indicate he would do this.  Hell, I was supposed to come pick up a gun from him the next day.  Looking back, Im thinking that feeling bad from being sick, plus pain meds plus other meds, apparently just weakened his mind.  Im sure he didnt plan it or give it much though....probably was hurting, felt bad, and just in the spur of the moment, made a permanent solution to a temporary problem and said f***  this! . So sad.  Playing out scenarios in my head over and over, I am convinced it was a decision of the moment with no forethought or planning.  Had it been thought through, I KNOW he would have had more concern for his wife and friends and would have went somewhere else to do it with less visual trauma and minimal mess to clean up.  He would have not wanted his loved ones to see what we saw that day.  While I feel terrible about it to this day, I can see nothing I could have done or seen as I dont think there were any warning signs.  

Edited December 5, 2018 by Defender

[bersaguy]

20 minutes ago, Defender said:

I lost my best friend to suicide a couple years ago, on Christmas Day.  He was 68, fully retired and no financial worries at all,  with some health issues, but not terrible or life threatening ones.  Life was good.  We talked daily and although he was retired, we met at least weekly for lunch and a gunshop visit or a gunshow.  As close friends sometimes do, we had talked about many things during the course of our friendship, and in the distant past,  including suicide.  He and I had both made the comment, usually after reading about a suicide in the news, that we would never do that, unless that we were to be suffering from some incurable, painfully unbearable disease like end stage cancer or something, that we might consider it.  Flash forward to the week of his death...he had the flu or a cold and was taking meds, along with some fairly minor pain meds due to his hip.   Around that time, I had sold my pocket pistol to fund another gun purchase, and was jonesing over not having a pocket pistol, lol.  On Christmas day, he had told me to come over and borrow one of his Shields until I could find one i liked to buy.  That very evening, his wife frantically called me telling me he had just blown his brains out.  I got there about the same time the cops did, and ended up cleaning up the scene as soon as his body was removed.  She said they had been in the garage, where they smoke, and she had went inside to make them a sandwich, when she heard a noise, and ran back out to see him sprawled in his chair, dead.  All this to say, that sometimes the signs just arent there.  Maybe sometimes they are, but i was probably closer to this guy in some ways than his wife, and she nor I saw anything to indicate he would do this.  Hell, I was supposed to come pick up a gun from him the next day.  Looking back, Im thinking that feeling bad from being sick, plus pain meds plus other meds, apparently just weakened his mind.  Im sure he didnt plan it or give it much though....probably was hurting, felt bad, and just in the spur of the moment, made a permanent solution to a temporary problem and said f***  this! . So sad.  Playing out scenarios in my head over and over, I am convinced it was a decision of the moment with no forethought or planning.  Had it been thought through, I KNOW he would have had more concern for his wife and friends and would have went somewhere else to do it with less visual trauma and minimal mess to clean up.  He would have not wanted his loved ones to see what we saw that day.  While I feel terrible about it to this day, I can see nothing I could have done or seen as I dont think there were any warning signs.  

Well, I am sorry to hear about your friend for sure. It does sound like a spare of moment decision.

My only issue I have in life except for getting old which is always part of life, Now don't ya'll laugh but my biggest challenge in life now is keeping up with all the meds I am suppose to take every day and the games my Med insurance company keeps playing. I have been playing musical pills with them for a couple years now. I just about how all the ducks in a row before my heart attack last January and at that point it all went to hell again.

The heart doctor added about 5 different medications and kept me on about 4 of the ones I was on from my GP doctor.  I have been working for a year again trying to get some order restored in that part of my life. My biggest issues I have found are the doctors will write a perscription for 1 fill and 5 refills on 30 day fills and the damn insurance tells Walgreens to fill them on 90 day fill. And then some meds are only written with 1 fill and 2 refills and they will do them all 90 at once. and I will be down to 4 or 5 pills of a Medicine that has a refill on it but the insurance company won't approve the fill till I am down to 2 pills sometimes because some months have 30 days and some 31 days. February is hell!!!!! I do my level best to make sure I have enough pills to get past that month by at least 2 months. My next trip to both of my doctors will be long talks. I am going to have each one of them go over my meds list carefully and eliminate any meds I really really really DON"T need. Example Heart doctor,  has me on Plavix(major blood thinner) and also a low dose aspirin which is also a blood thinner. My blood is like water now and if I get the smallest cut or scratch I bleed like crazy. He and I will be talking about that.

But anyway, that is my biggest challenge in my life and I sometimes actually laugh about it because it does keep me on my toes.

[DaveTN]

We will never understand or be able to pick out those that will commit homicide or suicide.

Like Tacops, I have been the detail Officer on several suicides. Attempts are a cry for help, but many are obviously just trying end their life; and get the job done. Some want to take others with them, sometimes the people they perceive as causing their problems; sometimes innocent bystanders.

Whether you are a first responder or a family member immediate action is required if you are to help. As I read this thread, the “Red Flag” threads and the active shooter threads it appears that some seem to think first responders should not act and family members be held accountable if they are wrong. Of course if the professionals are brought in and deem the person not to be a threat, and then they kill someone; they want to blame them for not doing more.

Most responsible law enforcement Officers, Medical personnel, Mental Health personnel and family members will do everything they can do within the law when a problem is brought to their attention. Sometimes unfortunately their hands are tied and innocent people die.

If I seriously thought a friend or family member was going to commit suicide or homicide; I would act. And being concerned for them losing their gun rights would not even be a blip on my radar.

As a friend or family member you may be the only person that can help. That doesn’t necessarily mean calling the cops. There are many other options; but it means doing something.

[Wingshooter]

Wow, Defender so sorry to hear. Any chance it could have been a tragic accident that just looked like suicide? Although I’m sure many are just spur of the moment lapses of reason to escape the moment

[Defender]

2 hours ago, Wingshooter said:

Wow, Defender so sorry to hear. Any chance it could have been a tragic accident that just looked like suicide? Although I’m sure many are just spur of the moment lapses of reason to escape the moment

Definitely  could have been.  His wife said no, but she was there...

 

I thin k a more noble way to go, if it HAD to happen,  would be to go find hard drug dealers and  have a shootout, lol.  No, Im just kidding, Im not advocating that.

[bersaguy]

56 minutes ago, Defender said:

Definitely  could have been.  His wife said no, but she was there...

 

I thin k a more noble way to go, if it HAD to happen,  would be to go find hard drug dealers and  have a shootout, lol.  No, Im just kidding, Im not advocating that.

That worked in the Grand Torino movie but he didn't shoot any of them.