Drinking and carrying leads to negligent discharge at Knoxville restaurant

[Omega]

Just now, Capbyrd said:

You have better eyes than I. 

 

Nah, my tablet has zoom built in 

[Garufa]

10 minutes ago, Omega said:

Yea, the bullet fully opened, so it hit something solid, a table, chair..something besides the glass.  All the petals seemed to be peeled back, but can't tell if the core is present or not, it may just be the jacket.

There is a fairly clean hole in the glass where it entered.  Not so sure that it hit somethings first.

Here’s some news:  https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wbir.com/amp/article%3fsection=news&subsection=crime&headline=glass-shattered-after-gun-unintentionally-discharged-at-kingston-pike-restaurant&contentId=51-620993096

Edited December 5, 2018 by Garufa

[Erik88]

Just now, Garufa said:

There is a fairly clean hole in the glass where it entered.  Not so sure that it hit somethings first.

Still haven’t heard anything on the local news and they would be all over this.

One of the restaurant workers said he even reached out to the local news. Odd that they haven't mentioned it.

[Garufa]

1 minute ago, Erik88 said:

One of the restaurant workers said he even reached out to the local news. Odd that they haven't mentioned it.

Reread my post, lol.  I edited as you were quoting.

[Omega]

1 hour ago, Garufa said:

There is a fairly clean hole in the glass where it entered.  Not so sure that it hit somethings first.

Here’s some news:  https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wbir.com/amp/article%3fsection=news&subsection=crime&headline=glass-shattered-after-gun-unintentionally-discharged-at-kingston-pike-restaurant&contentId=51-620993096

IDK, seems either (or both) the manager seen a divot in the cement or he doesn't know what a bullet looks like. 

Quote

The manager could not say if it was the bullet or a piece of concrete that had broken off from the shot had shattered the glass.

 

[Guest PAULSHOOT]

All I know is I get nervous thinking about SOME FOLKS that carry or have access to guns Drinking or Not Drinking). Some might be more dangerous that the BAD GUYS even when they don't have bad intentions.   

As far as drinking and having a gun or a vehicle to drive, I would venture to say, "Leaving it up to a drinker to decide when he has reached a limit to make good judgement about anything would likely lead to problems".  

[Fourtyfive]

On 12/3/2018 at 3:16 PM, Cruel Hand Luke said:

I'll come at this from a slightly different angle...

As Prag mentioned he does not drink or  "fiddle with his damn gun either". THAT is most likely the real reason-sober or not- that the gun went off. Modern pistols with drop safeties only go off ONE way and that is for the trigger to be pressed.  I would be interested to see exactly WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED to cause this. Needless (and careless)  handling of the gun caused by poor carry methods tend to lead tho this sort of thing more times than not. The odds are OVERWHELMING that he did not pull the gun out and intentionally discharge it, It was most likely an accident caused by unsafe carry methods.  

My guess (and I could be wrong) is that he probably was either carrying without a holster (anyone remember Plaxico Burress shooting himself when his pistol fell down the inside of his pants leg after being "Mexican carried" in his waistband?) or was carrying with a crappy holster and the gun came dislodged somehow. He probably was trying to readjust it and got trigger either wrapped up with finger or clothing and gun then predictably fires. THAT is how they are designed to work. Pull the trigger..... get loud noise. 

Now before anyone says "yeah but.... he shouldn't have been drinking"  that does NOT change the veracity of my point in the least. If he were .10 BAC but not TOUCHING THE GUN it would not go off. Guns do not go off on their own in the presence of alcohol....someone has to be handling the gun and there is no reason to do that in a restaurant ...unless it is no longer secure....  Right now as I sit here sober as a teetotaler typing this the ONLY way my gun in its holster can possibly go off is for me to pull it out of the holster far enough to manipulate the trigger. Alcohol is largely irrelevant if the gun is not handled.....the CARELESS HANDLING caused the discharge...not the presence of alcohol. It may have contributed to the careless handling but alcohol was not the CAUSE of the discharge. 

So what do we learn from this? Carry it in a REAL professionally designed big boy holster not some cheap garbage that does not prevent the trigger from being manipulated or just stuffed in a pocket or a waistband. Stone cold sober or not there is no reason to carelessly handle the gun in a restaurant . If you are having to handle it because you refuse to buy a real holster and it has come loose from where you are carrying it then stuff like this happens.  

Pull the trigger.... get loud noise. 

I love that! I am easily amused.......

Kinda like:  Lay on ground, light fuse, get away.......

Edited December 31, 2018 by Fourtyfive

[monkeylizard]

For those looking for the "bullet lodged in the glass", it's sitting on the frame at the bottom of the broken pane. Looks to me like it's caught between the two panes. Broke through the first one and stopped by the second. My guess is that there's a divot in the concrete floor somewhere and it was a ricochet that went into the glass door. Even the lowly .380 ought to be able to punch through two pieces of glass. Maybe a good test for the Box-Of-Truth

Edited February 10, 2019 by monkeylizard

[Cruel Hand Luke]

On 2/10/2019 at 11:41 AM, monkeylizard said:

 Even the lowly .380 ought to be able to punch through two pieces of glass. Maybe a good test for the Box-Of-Truth

Maybe...maybe not. I have seen metal binder clips used to affix paper targets to cardboard backers on an indoor range that were hit with .380 that were just dented in..... I've seen the same type clip at the same range with a clean hole through both sides made with 9, .40 and .45

Now I am NOT in any way saying they just bounce off of people... I repeat I am NOT saying they just bounce off people. There are plenty of people killed with .380 every year. I am saying that in that particular time and space that .380 ammo that the person was shooting didn't punch a hole through the binder clip which makes me very leery about expecting very much from a .380 at more than arms length distance. 

[WFM]

Because of the increased popularity for the .380 cal. for concealed carry in the last few years, companies have come out with some lethal self defense rounds.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

On 2/13/2019 at 11:44 AM, WFM said:

Because of the increased popularity for the .380 cal. for concealed carry in the last few years, companies have come out with some lethal self defense rounds.

Again I'm not arguing the lethality of it ... a .22 short can be lethal with good bullet placement and no intermediate barriers (like heavy clothing). Curtis Reeves had no problem killing Chad Oulson at touching distance through a T shirt in the Wesley Chapel movie theater with a .380 for throwing popcorn on him. One shot through the chest from almost contact distance produced a fatality. 

I'm saying that hollow point .380s don't expand AND penetrate to a depth that I'd be comfortable with for shots outside of arms length or for other than squared up through the chest shots. Add any distance, layering of clothing (especially leather jacket) , a heavily muscled (or just really fat) individual or any kind of angle and there is a VERY good chance that a .380 fired from a "pocket pistol" barrel length gun will probably not penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs.

So which do we think is more powerful? .380 or .45 GAP? We'd ALL say 45 GAP all day long.  One of my students actually shot a and killed a home invader using a .45 GAP... one round was found in fabric of the cotton walmart hoodie the guy was wearing....it didn't even penetrate the guy's body....of course the the other round that went through his mouth killed him.  So if a .45 GAP can fail to penetrate a "Walmart kevlar" hoodie then I'm not feeling so good about .380 . In all honesty I believe the round found in the hoodie probably hit at a bit of an angel and just skidded along the torso instead of biting in and penetrating into the torso. But if a glancing .45 can't be relied on to penetrate then a glancing hit with a .380 is even less likely. 

Not trying to kick anyone's pet goldfish here. Just want to make sure people understand that the performance of that pocket .380 they are carrying is probably not what they think. Will it kill? Yes and so will a car antenna shoved through your carotid artery. Can you guarantee that kind of placement?  Due to the lack of horsepower they just do not penetrate well with any kind of expanding ammo. You can mitigate this lack of penetration with FMJ ammo but then FMJ is not ideal for self defense either. Other than Hornady XTP bullet (which in most bigger calibers expands too little and penetrates too deep) there's just not anything else AT THIS POINT in time that expands and penetrates well enough that I would feel comfy with carrying a pocket .380 as a primary weapon. And in the RARE occasion I am absolutely FORCED by wardrobe requirements to carry only a .380 that is the ammo I use. But I still don't expect a lot from it....  

[Omega]

1 hour ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

Again I'm not arguing the lethality of it ... a .22 short can be lethal with good bullet placement and no intermediate barriers (like heavy clothing). Curtis Reeves had no problem killing Chad Oulson at touching distance through a T shirt in the Wesley Chapel movie theater with a .380 for throwing popcorn on him. One shot through the chest from almost contact distance produced a fatality. 

I'm saying that hollow point .380s don't expand AND penetrate to a depth that I'd be comfortable with for shots outside of arms length or for other than squared up through the chest shots. Add any distance, layering of clothing (especially leather jacket) , a heavily muscled (or just really fat) individual or any kind of angle and there is a VERY good chance that a .380 fired from a "pocket pistol" barrel length gun will probably not penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs.

So which do we think is more powerful? .380 or .45 GAP? We'd ALL say 45 GAP all day long.  One of my students actually shot a and killed a home invader using a .45 GAP... one round was found in fabric of the cotton walmart hoodie the guy was wearing....it didn't even penetrate the guy's body....of course the the other round that went through his mouth killed him.  So if a .45 GAP can fail to penetrate a "Walmart kevlar" hoodie then I'm not feeling so good about .380 . In all honesty I believe the round found in the hoodie probably hit at a bit of an angel and just skidded along the torso instead of biting in and penetrating into the torso. But if a glancing .45 can't be relied on to penetrate then a glancing hit with a .380 is even less likely. 

Not trying to kick anyone's pet goldfish here. Just want to make sure people understand that the performance of that pocket .380 they are carrying is probably not what they think. Will it kill? Yes and so will a car antenna shoved through your carotid artery. Can you guarantee that kind of placement?  Due to the lack of horsepower they just do not penetrate well with any kind of expanding ammo. You can mitigate this lack of penetration with FMJ ammo but then FMJ is not ideal for self defense either. Other than Hornady XTP bullet (which in most bigger calibers expands too little and penetrates too deep) there's just not anything else AT THIS POINT in time that expands and penetrates well enough that I would feel comfy with carrying a pocket .380 as a primary weapon. And in the RARE occasion I am absolutely FORCED by wardrobe requirements to carry only a .380 that is the ammo I use. But I still don't expect a lot from it....  

A .380 in the hand, beats a 50 Cal in the truck.  With modern ammo, familiarity and training, a .380 can be a formidable SD weapon.  Would I choose it, probably not, but only because my 40 has been my SD weapon for over 30 years.  But if clothing or carry location forces you into a small frame gun, .380 isn't as bad as all that.

 

[chances R]

CHL......very insensitive comment.  My goldfish just died.  

[Cruel Hand Luke]

My condolences.......