Drinking and carrying leads to negligent discharge at Knoxville restaurant

[Erik88]

This happened at Double Dogs. I'm curious if he was handling the gun or carrying without a holster. 

[DaveTN]

Pretty good chance since he didn’t stay and report it; he will be arrested.

[bersaguy]

Thank GOD he didn't hit his child or any one else. You can bet he will probably be arrested and should be by all rights. I no longer drink alcohol but back when I did I never carried. Not even if it was just a gathering of friends at someones home. 

[Omega]

He may be charged for the glass, but because he left, even if on video it would be hard to prove he was impaired.  That happens quite often with DUI cases, they take off and when they are finally caught, they are no longer under the influence.

[Erik88]

3 minutes ago, Omega said:

He may be charged for the glass, but because he left, even if on video it would be hard to prove he was impaired.  That happens quite often with DUI cases, they take off and when they are finally caught, they are no longer under the influence.

In TN, he could lose his permit, regardless of impairment, if it is proven he had ANYTHING to drink.

[DaveTN]

20 minutes ago, Omega said:

He may be charged for the glass, but because he left, even if on video it would be hard to prove he was impaired.  That happens quite often with DUI cases, they take off and when they are finally caught, they are no longer under the influence.

No need to prove he was impaired for criminal charges. He discharged a firearm in a restaurant putting everyone in danger and damaging property. He then left.

[Omega]

26 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

In TN, he could lose his permit, regardless of impairment, if it is proven he had ANYTHING to drink.

Quote

(a) Notwithstanding whether a person has a permit issued pursuant to § Code Sec. 39-17-1315″>39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351, it is an offense for a person to possess a handgun while under the influence of alcohol or any controlled substance.

Not a lawyer, but I believe he would have to be proven to be under the influence for this to apply, though what "under the influence" means can be debated.  

[Omega]

9 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

No need to prove he was impaired for criminal charges. He discharged a firearm in a restaurant putting everyone in danger and damaging property. He then left.

Yea, that part may prove true, as to being charged for say, child endangerment, or whatever.  But he would have to be convicted of a felony, unless the child endangerment happens to be a domestic violence charge.

[Chucktshoes]

This is why we can’t have nice things. Here’s some lovely ammo for the folks who’d like to repeal “guns in bars” as it was so wonderfully dubbed back in the run up to restaurant carry being passed.

 

I’ll be honest, I don’t think it’s a big deal to have a drink or two while carrying. If you are unsafe with a gun after a drink or two, it’s probably not the gun that is the problem. But crap like this is what makes life hard on the rest of us. Whatever you do and however you do it, be responsible and safe while doing it. If you screw up, own it. Don’t run off like a coward. 

Whatever you do, stop making life hard on the rest of us!

Edited December 3, 2018 by Chucktshoes

[DaveTN]

15 minutes ago, Omega said:

Yea, that part may prove true, as to being charged for say, child endangerment, or whatever.  But he would have to be convicted of a felony, unless the child endangerment happens to be a domestic violence charge.

I’m not addressing his HCP; the responding Officer will have little concern about that. My point is that if you ever discharge a firearm or have to threaten someone with a firearm; stay and talk to the Police. They have discretion. If you are not there they have one side of the story. If I were the detail Officer on that call I would simply have Officers go to your house, arrest you, and book you, or go get an arrest warrant; whatever the law requires.

[Jamie Jackson]

I'm not familiar with Double Dogs. Was this in Knoxville @Erik88 ?

Disclaimer: I don't drink, but I don't fiddle with my damn gun either. Good grief...

Do we know if this tool even had a permit? I did a quick search and didn't see this incident pop up. Maybe that's good as this would indeed be fodder for the anti-gun side.

[Erik88]

1 hour ago, prag said:

I'm not familiar with Double Dogs. Was this in Knoxville @Erik88 ?

Disclaimer: I don't drink, but I don't fiddle with my damn gun either. Good grief...

Do we know if this tool even had a permit? I did a quick search and didn't see this incident pop up. Maybe that's good as this would indeed be fodder for the anti-gun side.

It happened at the new Double Dogs at 8910 Kingston Pike, Knoxville, TN 37923. They tore down the old Rafferty's and built it earlier this year.

[chances R]

Discharge of a gun in the city for 1.  Possession of a handgun while consuming 2.  Impairment not a requirement....just influence, and that is one sip.  Child endangerment 3.  Fleeing the scene 4.  All wrapped up with a 'consciousness of guilt' by fleeing.  Wouldn't want to be that guy.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I'll come at this from a slightly different angle...

As Prag mentioned he does not drink or  "fiddle with his damn gun either". THAT is most likely the real reason-sober or not- that the gun went off. Modern pistols with drop safeties only go off ONE way and that is for the trigger to be pressed.  I would be interested to see exactly WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED to cause this. Needless (and careless)  handling of the gun caused by poor carry methods tend to lead tho this sort of thing more times than not. The odds are OVERWHELMING that he did not pull the gun out and intentionally discharge it, It was most likely an accident caused by unsafe carry methods.  

My guess (and I could be wrong) is that he probably was either carrying without a holster (anyone remember Plaxico Burress shooting himself when his pistol fell down the inside of his pants leg after being "Mexican carried" in his waistband?) or was carrying with a crappy holster and the gun came dislodged somehow. He probably was trying to readjust it and got trigger either wrapped up with finger or clothing and gun then predictably fires. THAT is how they are designed to work. Pull the trigger..... get loud noise. 

Now before anyone says "yeah but.... he shouldn't have been drinking"  that does NOT change the veracity of my point in the least. If he were .10 BAC but not TOUCHING THE GUN it would not go off. Guns do not go off on their own in the presence of alcohol....someone has to be handling the gun and there is no reason to do that in a restaurant ...unless it is no longer secure....  Right now as I sit here sober as a teetotaler typing this the ONLY way my gun in its holster can possibly go off is for me to pull it out of the holster far enough to manipulate the trigger. Alcohol is largely irrelevant if the gun is not handled.....the CARELESS HANDLING caused the discharge...not the presence of alcohol. It may have contributed to the careless handling but alcohol was not the CAUSE of the discharge. 

So what do we learn from this? Carry it in a REAL professionally designed big boy holster not some cheap garbage that does not prevent the trigger from being manipulated or just stuffed in a pocket or a waistband. Stone cold sober or not there is no reason to carelessly handle the gun in a restaurant . If you are having to handle it because you refuse to buy a real holster and it has come loose from where you are carrying it then stuff like this happens.  

[Erik88]

2 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

I'll come at this from a slightly different angle...

As Prag mentioned he does not drink or  "fiddle with his damn gun either". THAT is most likely the real reason-sober or not- that the gun went off. Modern pistols with drop safeties only go off ONE way and that is for the trigger to be pressed.  I would be interested to see exactly WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED to cause this. Needless (and careless)  handling of the gun caused by poor carry methods tend to lead tho this sort of thing more times than not. The odds are OVERWHELMING that he did not pull the gun out and intentionally discharge it, It was most likely an accident caused by unsafe carry methods.  

My guess (and I could be wrong) is that he probably was either carrying without a holster (anyone remember Plaxico Burress shooting himself when his pistol fell down the inside of his pants leg after being "Mexican carried" in his waistband?) or was carrying with a crappy holster and the gun came dislodged somehow. He probably was trying to readjust it and got trigger either wrapped up with finger or clothing and gun then predictably fires. THAT is how they are designed to work. Pull the trigger..... get loud noise. 

Now before anyone says "yeah but.... he shouldn't have been drinking"  that does NOT change the veracity of my point in the least. If he were .10 BAC but not TOUCHING THE GUN it would not go off. Guns do not go off on their own in the presence of alcohol....someone has to be handling the gun and there is no reason to do that in a restaurant ...unless it is no longer secure....  Right now as I sit here sober as a teetotaler typing this the ONLY way my gun in its holster can possibly go off is for me to pull it out of the holster far enough to manipulate the trigger. Alcohol is largely irrelevant if the gun is not handled.....the CARELESS HANDLING caused the discharge...not the presence of alcohol. It may have contributed to the careless handling but alcohol was not the CAUSE of the discharge. 

So what do we learn from this? Carry it in a REAL professionally designed big boy holster not some cheap garbage that does not prevent the trigger from being manipulated or just stuffed in a pocket or a waistband. Stone cold sober or not there is no reason to carelessly handle the gun in a restaurant . If you are having to handle it because you refuse to buy a real holster and it has come loose from where you are carrying it then stuff like this happens.  

Good post. I guess I picked a title for this thread that implied drinking was the cause. That wasn't my intention. I'd still like to know what he was doing. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

No worries man, it is just that on a personal level  I find it extremely ironic that somehow in all the other states that allow drinking while carrying we just do not see widespread blood in the streets from crazed drunken gunfights in bars. If the Pennsylvanians of Quaker descent can somehow see their way to passing legislation approving being armed and drinking alcohol as long as you are not over the limit to drive then you'd think that the Tennesseans of Revolutionary War veteran descent  might be able to come to the same conclusion.... but as of yet that is not the case. At the National Tactical Invitational in 2007 in Harrisburg PA there were probably 100 armed people drinking in the bar of the host hotel every night of the event ....which was perfectly legal under Pennsylvania law.......and even with a room full of ARMED type A personalities (many with more than one gun on them) there were no incidents at all.  

Here's a secret. There have ALWAYS been armed people in bars. I worked in the bar business for a few years in college. People ALREADY carried guns in bars before it was legal AT ALL and yet we do not see the streets running red from drunken gun battles over Monday Night Football at Hooters ..... or over games of pool at any number of "dive" bars throughout the state. And if they think none of those people that are drinking are carrying or that none of the people that are carrying are drinking no matter what the law says , that is just naive on the part of the legislature. As long as there have been bars there have been people carrying weapons in them...legal or not.

Now.....Is it a good idea to drink a beer and carry? That is a 100 page thread for another time. Is it a good idea to be armed and go out drinking with the intention of getting drunk. ABSOLUTELY NOT...and there is really no debate on that. But then again the effects a beer or two might have on a 100 lb non drinker vs the effect it will have on a 250 lb person who drinks alcohol regularly are different. Two beers over the course of an hour might have little effect on one and have much more effect on the other. And lets be honest which is more LIKELY to cause death or injury? Driving at .05 BAC or carrying a gun at .05 BAC? Driving your car is far more common than pulling your gun out is.... Which REALLY effects more people? 

 

I didn't mean to derail the thread, my point is simply that for some reason some people in Tennessee think alcohol causes guns to go off.... Pulling the trigger is what causes guns to go off. It is either a conscious decision (good or bad)  to pull the trigger or it is an accident (normally caused from needless and careless handling) when they do go off unintentionally. I doubt this case was a conscious alcohol impaired bad decision to fire the gun and was more likely careless handling due to poor choice in carry method. But again I could be wrong. But based on being around armed people (both the well trained and the woefully untrained and both the legally and illegally armed ) on a daily basis for 25 years I feel pretty comfortable that this was probably not a conscious decision and more likely careless handling that led to this incident. And careless handling due to poor carry methods are the most dangerous part of the equation......not the presence of the alcohol.....in my opinion. 

 

End Notes: For those who might not quite be tracking the reference I mention "of Quaker descent" as that Quakers are  who founded Pennsylvania and "Revolutionary War veterans" are largely who founded TN as land in TN was given as grants for service in the war. Both my mother and father's families were early pioneers in Tennessee and both families had Revolutionary War veterans. In fact my father's family was here in Tennessee before TN was a state and before the USA existed....

Edited December 4, 2018 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Garufa]

These types of things are to be expected at a place that serves nachos in dog food bowls.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Well...there is that too

[Capbyrd]

Can we talk about the glass?  Do y'all think it hit the glass or was more likely stopped by the frame and the impact caused the glass breakage?  I'm guessing 380 and didn't have enough guts to pass through the aluminum frame. 

[Erik88]

10 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

Can we talk about the glass?  Do y'all think it hit the glass or was more likely stopped by the frame and the impact caused the glass breakage?  I'm guessing 380 and didn't have enough guts to pass through the aluminum frame. 

I was wondering about that as well.  I suspect you're correct.

[Omega]

12 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

Can we talk about the glass?  Do y'all think it hit the glass or was more likely stopped by the frame and the impact caused the glass breakage?  I'm guessing 380 and didn't have enough guts to pass through the aluminum frame. 

Looks more like a ricochet, notice the star burst where it impacted the glass.  It looks like it went through the first pane and got stopped by the second.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Omega
Punctuation

[Capbyrd]

Just now, Erik88 said:

I was wondering about that as well.  I suspect you're correct.

Upon further inspection, I can see where the bullet hit the glass.   Definitely didn't hit the frame.  The description said it was still lodged in the glass.   I think there is a study in bullets and loads to be taught here but I don't have enough information. 

[Capbyrd]

1 minute ago, Omega said:

Looks more like a ricochet, notice the star burst where it impacted the glass.  It looks like it went through the first pane and got stopped by the second.

Two panes.  I wasn't seeing it as two panes but that makes a lot of sense.   I would still hope that whatever I'm carrying would have the guts two pass through two panes of glass (automotive excepted).  But a ricochet makes sense.  I'm just really curious. 

 

[Omega]

1 minute ago, Capbyrd said:

Two panes.  I wasn't seeing it as two panes but that makes a lot of sense.   I would still hope that whatever I'm carrying would have the guts two pass through two panes of glass (automotive excepted).  But a ricochet makes sense.  I'm just really curious. 

 

Yea, the bullet fully opened, so it hit something solid, a table, chair..something besides the glass.  All the petals seemed to be peeled back, but can't tell if the core is present or not, it may just be the jacket.

[Capbyrd]

You have better eyes than I.