Carrying With an Out-of-State Permit

[Guest JeepMonkey]

I have a question on Tennessee Carry laws regarding age. I am 19 and am a student at UTK (side note: I live off-campus and my SP101 has never seen UTK or any other campus). I have non-resident CCP's from both Maine and New Hampshire and I recently had a City of Knoxville police officer tell me that, even though I have two CCP's, I cannot legally carry in the state of TN because I am not yet 21. I have researched every law defining firearm carrying and minors in the state codes and have found nothing justifying this, other than having to be 21 to apply for a TN HCP.

I need some help on this. If I am wrong in carrying I will cease carrying in TN immediately, but if the cop was wrong, how do I prove this to any cop that confronts me on this again? I am a resident of North Carolina, and I am allowed by law to carry there with the NH CCP and have never heard of any such law in TN from friends who have TN HCP's.

Edited January 30, 2009 by JeepMonkey

[Garufa]

http://www.state.tn.us/safety/handgun/generalinfo.htm

"The citizens of the state of Tennessee have the right to keep and bear arms for their common defense; but the General Assembly has the power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime. Any resident of Tennessee who has reached twenty-one (21) years of age may apply to the Department of Safety for a handgun permit. If the applicant is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm in this state pursuant to Tenn. Code Ann. §39-17-316 or 39-17-1307(, 18 U.S.C. 9 (g) or any other state or federal law and the applicant otherwise meets all of the requirements, the Department of Safety shall issue a permit to the applicant. "

Tennessee Code:

http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpExt.dll?f=templates&eMail=Y&fn=main-h.htm&cp=tncode/11662/12084/123d6/12477

Not sure how reciprocity plays into this but I assume you must meet the eligibility requirements for TN for that to kick in.

I know it sucks but there you have it.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Garufa

[Guest JeepMonkey]

That was the only law I found mentioning a minimum age off 21, but like I said, it only mentions applying for a TN HCP. TN and NH have a reciprocity agreement, so shouldn't that be legal grounds for me to carry since I cannot find any law stating otherwise?

EDIT: 39-17-1351.3.A states:

"The commissioner of safety shall enter into written reciprocity agreements with other states that require the execution of the agreements. The commissioner of safety shall prepare and publicly publish a current list of states honoring permits issued by the state of Tennessee and shall make the list available to anyone upon request. The commissioner of safety shall also prepare and publicly publish a current list of states who, after inquiry by the commissioner, refuse to enter into a reciprocity agreement with this state or honor handgun carry permits issued by this state. To the extent that any state may impose conditions in the reciprocity agreements, the commissioner of safety shall publish those conditions as part of the list. If another state imposes conditions on Tennessee permit holders in a reciprocity agreement, the conditions shall also become a part of the agreement and apply to the other state's permit holders when they carry a handgun in this state."

I have seen no conditions regarding the NH reciprocity.

Also, from http://www.state.tn.us/safety/handgun/reciprocity.htm:

"1. Tennessee now recognizes a facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit, or a license issued by another state according to its terms, and will, therefore, authorize the holder of such out-of-state permit or license to carry a handgun only in the state of Tennessee."

Once again, no age restrictions listed.

Side note: I'm not some d**khead kid trying to break the laws on this. I'm just trying to be informed on something a KPD officer told me that I had never heard of before and he had zero evidence to back his claim up.

Edited January 30, 2009 by JeepMonkey
Add info.

[BrasilNuts]

Also, from http://www.state.tn.us/safety/handgun/reciprocity.htm:

"1. Tennessee now recognizes a facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit, or a license issued by another state according to its terms, and will, therefore, authorize the holder of such out-of-state permit or license to carry a handgun only in the state of Tennesse."

I think that's your answer right there, but that's just my opinion and I am no lawyer. I am sure that there are some guys on here that will know or will know where to point you.

Edited January 30, 2009 by BrasilNuts
spelchek

[Reservoir Dog]

The way the law reads, it seems that TN agrees to honor the terms of a facially valid out-of-state permit. But then again, I'm no lawyer.

TCA 39-17-1351®(1) reads:

A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, the provisions of this subsection ® shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun.

[Guest JeepMonkey]

So should I keep a copy of that subsection with "according to its terms" bolded, underlined, and in capital letters paperclipped to my NH CCP for the next I encounter with LDS to see?

Edited January 30, 2009 by JeepMonkey

[Garufa]

The way the law reads, it seems that TN agrees to honor the terms of a facially valid out-of-state permit. But then again, I'm no lawyer.

TCA 39-17-1351®(1) reads:

Based on this you may be good to go. I'm no lawyer either but that's how it reads. If it were me I'd call Nashville and find out for sure before you have any more encounters with The Man.

You may want to carry that law around with you, but the Law might not like being told what the law is if you do meet again.

[Guest jackdog]

I would call the attorney generals office, for clarification. But I think the agreement legally has to be honored.

[oldogy]

So should I keep a copy of that subsection with "according to its terms" bolded, underlined, and in capital letters paperclipped to my NH CCP for the next I encounter with LDS to see?

I would not leave home without that document and any other that would support your right to carry in TN. The burden to support your position will be on you. That said, I would remain squeaky clean and choose my friends and places I frequent very carefully.

I would make a concentrated effort to refrain from printing.

Not that I really care but I can not help but wonder what kind of encounter you had with a LEO that brought up the subject.

ray, the oldogy

So, who is Saul Alinsky

[Guest tjbert47]

If you are a TN resident you can not carry on an out of state permit.

[Oh Shoot]

If you are a TN resident you can not carry on an out of state permit.

Well, you can for 6 months:

"If a person with a handgun permit from another state decides to become a resident of Tennessee, such person must obtain a Tennessee handgun permit within six (6) months of establishing residency in Tennessee."

Are you a TN resident by virtue of attending college here only?

What if you go back to your home state every summer?

Do you legally change residency twice a year?

I admit I have no idea.

Oh, Patriiiiiccckkk!

- OS

[Guest JeepMonkey]

I am a legal resident of NC. I pay my taxes in NC, I am still a dependent of my parents, and I (or I should say the Air Force) pays the out-of-state tuition rate at UTK. My residency does not change because I live here 9-12 months out of the year.

As for what brought the LEO encounter on, I was pulled over on I-275 because I didn't have my headlights on at dusk and the LEO with LDS thought they were burnt out. I always notify the officer in any state that I am carrying with a CCP (NC you are legally required to, in fact).

BTW, LDS = Little D*ck Syndrome. I had seen it somewhere on here when I searched the forum for this matter.

Edited January 30, 2009 by JeepMonkey

[Oh Shoot]

I am a legal resident of NC. I pay my taxes in NC, I am still a dependent of my parents, and I (or I should say the Air Force) pays the out-of-state tuition rate at UTK. My residency does not change because I live here 9-12 months out of the year.

As for what brought the LEO encounter on, I was pulled over on I-275 because I didn't have my headlights on at dusk and the LEO with LDS thought they were burnt out. I always notify the officer in any state that I am carrying with a CCP (NC you are legally required to, in fact).

Well, assuming that your interpretation of residency is correct (seems reasonable to me) and looking at the rules, certainly seems to me you'd be legal to carry here.

You can tell the next LEO who stops you that I said so.

Mr. Patrick Stegall, Esq., a moderator in this forum, hopefully will respond soon.

- OS

[Guest JeepMonkey]

According to NC and UTK, that's how it is...even though I grew up in Murfreesboro and my folks grew up in Johnson City.

[Reservoir Dog]

So, you grew up in Tennessee. You are a resident of North Carolina, currently living in Tennessee for school.....and you have carry permits from New Hampshire and Maine.

Wow! This is a lawyer's wet dream!

[Guest JeepMonkey]

So, you grew up in Tennessee. You are a resident of North Carolina, currently living in Tennessee for school.....and you have carry permits from New Hampshire and Maine.

Wow! This is a lawyer's wet dream!

Tell me about it. I moved to NC in November 2000, and NC does their best to keep me on their income tax payroll.

Because I am still a dependent, I have NC residency...otherwise my parents would not be able to write me off.

Edited January 30, 2009 by JeepMonkey
Add quote.

[Guest Revelator]

This is a fascinating set of facts. I have to agree with the others, it appears the law is on your side. One thing that sways me in that direction is in subsection (, at the beginning of -1351, where it reads "Except as provided in subsection ®..." and it goes on to say you must be 21 to apply for a TNHCP. The legislature is basically giving us an exception to the 21 years-of-age requirement by referencing out of state permits. If you have a valid under-21 permit from another state, it seems to be saying, that'll suffice in lieu of applying for a Tennessee permit.

At first I was thinking that your out of state permits might not be valid here based on this analogy: Let's say you have a valid permit from another state, a state that allows you to carry in a place that serves alcohol for on-site consumption. Does that mean you can come to Tennessee with that permit and carry in a place that serves alcohol for on-site consumption? Of course not. However, in that situation we're just talking about the general carry laws. In subsection ® we're talking about the specific terms of the carry permit. One of those terms is the age of the holder, and the law says that a valid permit from another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms..." So the Tennessee law says you have to look to the terms of the other state, and your state's terms are that you can carry under the age of 21.

However, I've said this before and it bears repeating: if a police pulls you over or otherwise detains you, they aren't looking to get into a legal discussion. Quoting this law to them probably isn't going to do you any good if they believe you're unlawfully carrying. Be prepared to go to court. It may get dismissed, or you may have to fight it out, and you could end up being one of those select few whose case really changes the law. It could happen. This is a pretty fascinating situation. And it's definitely ripe for an Attorney General opinion.

I have a question about something. So you can get Maine and New Hampshire carry permits without being a resident there? (I'm assuming you've been a resident of North Carolina this whole time.) And how long are those permits valid if you're not even living there, and obviously have no intention of moving back?

[Oh Shoot]

....I have a question about something. So you can get Maine and New Hampshire carry permits without being a resident there? (I'm assuming you've been a resident of North Carolina this whole time.) And how long are those permits valid if you're not even living there, and obviously have no intention of moving back?

You do know you can get non-resident permits without EVER having lived in the state from whence issued? There is no "moving back".

Don't know about the states in question, but one of the most popular non-resident permit states, Utah, will issue without your ever having set foot in Utah. It is, AFAIK, perpetually renewable, unless they change the law.

- OS

[Guest JeepMonkey]

I have a question about something. So you can get Maine and New Hampshire carry permits without being a resident there? (I'm assuming you've been a resident of North Carolina this whole time.) And how long are those permits valid if you're not even living there, and obviously have no intention of moving back?

Both states issue permits to non-residents, although NH requires you to have a valid permit from any other state (Vermont residents excluded) to get a NR permit. Both permits are valid for four years and can be both obtained and perpetually renewed via U.S. Mail (no traveling needed).

[Guest Loaded247]

Yes, some states issue 'non-resident' permits...even if you have no intention of going to that state. Florida does it, and so does Utah, Pennsylvania, and New Hampshire. I have a New Hampshire non-resident permit...just got it last month.....

[Guest JeepMonkey]

Tennessee also issues NR permits to people who work here from a state without a reciprocity agreement with TN.

[Guest Revelator]

That's right, I have heard about those. My mind must have been somewhere else. I get so wrapped up in Tennessee laws I'm not too hip to what's going on elsewhere.

[Guest JeepMonkey]

Been there, done that. Last time I was in NC, my girlfriend came with me and asked why I started to disarm at an I-40 rest area in NC. I quickly remembered that those aren't off-limits there like they are here.

[Guest 270win]

I would conceal that handgun well and not tell the police you are carrying. Even though you are legal, police are not expected to be lawyers and can charge you to let a prosecutor figure out whether you are truly legal. It appears you are legal....Alabama sheriffs sometimes issue to 18yr olds and they are legal in TN with their Concealed Pistol License. TN law does not seem to require a non resident be 21 when carrying on an out of state license. I'm not a lawyer though...if you want real legal advice...be willing to chalk up some cash!

[Guest JeepMonkey]

I would conceal that handgun well and not tell the police you are carrying. Even though you are legal, police are not expected to be lawyers and can charge you to let a prosecutor figure out whether you are truly legal. It appears you are legal....Alabama sheriffs sometimes issue to 18yr olds and they are legal in TN with their Concealed Pistol License. TN law does not seem to require a non resident be 21 when carrying on an out of state license. I'm not a lawyer though...if you want real legal advice...be willing to chalk up some cash!

I honestly prefer to inform the LEO I'm carrying. In my situation, as soon as he/she sees my DL, he/she instantly knows I am under 21 (as NC licenses have that in bold letters next to the picture), and if/when he/she sees my weapon then I could/would be in a heap of trouble before I could explain my situation. I've been looking at the wrong end of a cop's Glock before and, although I was not breaking the law, it was d*mn sure not a fun experience (the FNG NC Trooper freaked out when I told him I had a CCP and was carrying, and in NC I am legally required to inform the LEO when I am carrying). Being handcuffed on the hood of a Charger so he could retrieve and unload my Ruger in the back of my Jeep's passenger's seat was not too enjoyable either. Oh, and he also took my shotgun and rifle out of their case and inspected them.

Just my ...

Edited January 30, 2009 by JeepMonkey
My grammar blows...