Red flag laws claim their first victim

[Omega]

33 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t see where due process didn’t happen here. A family member instigated this, not the cops. We have no idea what they claimed. But a Judge heard it and issued the order, same as a warrant. The man could have then went to court and argued his case. That is due process.

Subpoenaing someone to court because you are going to have a hearing about confiscating their guns won’t work.

It’s not just the mentally ill, domestic violence calls are very dangerous for everyone involved. They are very emotional; and they can turn deadly quick; for both cops and citizens. I know I’ve seen it too many times firsthand.

I’ve always said orders of protection are a problem. I’ve explained to people that they don’t protect them; they just allow the cops to arrest the person if they violate them. Too often when they are violated the offender and family members are dead.

We can’t stop that any more than we can stop mass shootings. So do we do nothing? I don’t have the answers; only suggestions.

But I have zero sympathy for anyone that directs violence towards another person. Whether that be family members, friends, or the cops dispatched to their house because they can’t handle their own family issues.

As I’ve told my friends and family; the cops are not your friend. They are not social workers and they are not going to fix your problems. If you have a family member or friend that needs professional help; get it for them. Rarely will an arrest make that happen.

I don't know, I would think due process would be to allow someone to defend themselves of what ever charge was leveled against him before actually acting against him.  A warrant does not give the police the right to confiscate anything not related to a crime of some sort, and it usually written specific to the crime being investigated .  The law needs some serious review as far as I am concerned. 

[gregintenn]

39 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t see where due process didn’t happen here. A family member instigated this, not the cops. We have no idea what they claimed. But a Judge heard it and issued the order, same as a warrant. The man could have then went to court and argued his case. That is due process.

Subpoenaing someone to court because you are going to have a hearing about confiscating their guns won’t work.

It’s not just the mentally ill, domestic violence calls are very dangerous for everyone involved. They are very emotional; and they can turn deadly quick; for both cops and citizens. I know I’ve seen it too many times firsthand.

I’ve always said orders of protection are a problem. I’ve explained to people that they don’t protect them; they just allow the cops to arrest the person if they violate them. Too often when they are violated the offender and family members are dead.

We can’t stop that any more than we can stop mass shootings. So do we do nothing? I don’t have the answers; only suggestions.

But I have zero sympathy for anyone that directs violence towards another person. Whether that be family members, friends, or the cops dispatched to their house because they can’t handle their own family issues.

As I’ve told my friends and family; the cops are not your friend. They are not social workers and they are not going to fix your problems. If you have a family member or friend that needs professional help; get it for them. Rarely will an arrest make that happen.

Again I'll ask; would you be happy to stand idly by and watch police throw your possessions into the back of a truck when you've done nothing wrong?

I do value your perspective because it is much different than mine. You have a much higher opinion of our legal system than I do. I wish I could share that. I really do.

There is a documentary on Netflix called "Making a Murderer".  It is a very eye opening look into our legal system. Not just police, but the entire system. Scary stuff. I'd urge everyone to see it.

[bersaguy]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t see where due process didn’t happen here. A family member instigated this, not the cops. We have no idea what they claimed. But a Judge heard it and issued the order, same as a warrant. The man could have then went to court and argued his case. That is due process.

Subpoenaing someone to court because you are going to have a hearing about confiscating their guns won’t work.

It’s not just the mentally ill, domestic violence calls are very dangerous for everyone involved. They are very emotional; and they can turn deadly quick; for both cops and citizens. I know I’ve seen it too many times firsthand.

I’ve always said orders of protection are a problem. I’ve explained to people that they don’t protect them; they just allow the cops to arrest the person if they violate them. Too often when they are violated the offender and family members are dead.

We can’t stop that any more than we can stop mass shootings. So do we do nothing? I don’t have the answers; only suggestions.

But I have zero sympathy for anyone that directs violence towards another person. Whether that be family members, friends, or the cops dispatched to their house because they can’t handle their own family issues.

As I’ve told my friends and family; the cops are not your friend. They are not social workers and they are not going to fix your problems. If you have a family member or friend that needs professional help; get it for them. Rarely will an arrest make that happen.

I do have an issue with Orders of Protections. LIke you have said, when it comes down to needing one of those they more often than not turn out bad with someone being killed. I don't have an answer for those except I would never get one against anyone. There are also cases where the police are called out to a domestic dispute that appears to get settled and within a day of two someone or sometimes entire families are killed in murder suicides. Things like that will never be stopped whether a gun is used or any number of other weapons, knife lead pipe, hammer, ball bat, even arson etc etc.

As far as having someone come to court to tell them they are going to take away their guns of course would never work. There should be a hearing in which the person gets to face their accuser and be able to provide a defense before the order is handed down to take the guns. The reason they don't want to do that is look how many cases would have to be heard and how much time the courts would have to spend just on these cases.

The state has just decided to bully their way through this and it got a man killed. I for 1 would like to know what the extended family member put up as a reason for them to go after the mans guns. I doubt we will ever know???? 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by bersaguy

[DaveTN]

36 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Again I'll ask; would you be happy to stand idly by and watch police throw your possessions into the back of a truck when you've done nothing wrong?

Of course I wouldn’t be happy. Would I pull my gun and engage them? Of course not I would either die or end up in jail. Protecting your family includes not doing something stupid and getting killed or sent to prison and leaving them to fend for themselves.

36 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I do value your perspective because it is much different than mine. You have a much higher opinion of our legal system than I do. I wish I could share that. I really do.

I don’t have a high opinion of our legal system. Remember me? I’m the one that says you will get exactly as much justice as you can afford, and anyone that thinks they are innocent until proven guilty probably hasn’t been cuffed, stuffed, and booked.

It is flawed and there are bad cops. I know that, acknowledge it and have taught my children how to survive it. The opinions I give here are more to give a person insight on how to keep from getting arrested and going to trial, as opposed to some with no legal experience who think because they read the law they can advise someone how to beat charges at trial; that’s generally a loss. But those types of opinions are usually more popular than mine.

You and I agree on most things including politics and guns; but we are 180 degrees opposed on law enforcement.  I never had to violate someone rights to arrest them or get a conviction and don’t believe it would be required today. However, I doubt you and I would agree on what those rights are.

Good cops make mistakes…period. Will they be fired? Of course not if those mistakes were innocent. If they were intentional or criminal; absolutely they should be held accountable. Are they always? Nope.

I have plenty of ideas that would help cops work better with the community and have a better reputation. They aren’t anything earth shattering that hasn’t been presented before. You have to remember that Police Departments can be day and night different; even in the same state or county. You have to also realize that some people hate cops no matter what they do and some people just hate anyone in authority. No one will ever change those people minds.

36 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

There is a documentary on Netflix called "Making a Murderer".  It is a very eye opening look into our legal system. Not just police, but the entire system. Scary stuff. I'd urge everyone to see it.

I watched that whole series; it was like 10 or 12 hours. How accurate was it? I have no idea. I know they showed that a couple of cops planted evidence. Did that happen? I don’t know; it could have. There are plenty of cases of cops lying or planting evidence. It happened to me. Am I bitter about it? I’m bitter that one criminal SOB that was pissed at me lied. But I couldn’t prove it and it took several years before he was caught, arrested, and fired for doing it to someone else. All the cops on that department weren’t bad.

[peejman]

24 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Of course I wouldn’t be happy. Would I pull my gun and engage them? Of course not I would either die or end up in jail. Protecting your family includes not doing something stupid and getting killed or sent to prison and leaving them to fend for themselves.

I'd consider it the difference between forcible confiscation and willingly surrendered. 

If you're willing to give them up and deal with the courts and aggravation of reclaiming your property because of an inadmissible and undefendable hearsay claim, fine. Should they be forcibly taken?  No. 

If the guy got belligerent, which he did, the cops should have de-escalated. Back off. Watch him. Let it cool off. Going from zero to gunfire over hearsay is absurd. 

What would they have done if he wasn't home?  B&E to confiscate (steal) his property?  As Greg says, that's armed robbery in my book.  

Does the warrant to confiscate his property include a summons to a court date? 

 

[DaveTN]

18 minutes ago, peejman said:

I'd consider it the difference between forcible confiscation and willingly surrendered. 

If you're willing to give them up and deal with the courts and aggravation of reclaiming your property because of an inadmissible and undefendable hearsay claim, fine. Should they be forcibly taken?  No. 

If the guy got belligerent, which he did, the cops should have de-escalated. Back off. Watch him. Let it cool off. Going from zero to gunfire over hearsay is absurd. 

What would they have done if he wasn't home?  B&E to confiscate (steal) his property?  As Greg says, that's armed robbery in my book.  

Does the warrant to confiscate his property include a summons to a court date? 

 

We don’t know what happened in that house or why. One story says his weapon was fired. We don’t know why or how. They didn’t go from zero to gun fire over hearsay; they appear to have done it over a shot being fired.

I wouldn’t have any problem with knocking on the door and talking with the guy. I would let him know that him staying in the house with his guns is not an option and any attempt to do so would result in criminal charges, possibly felonies. No different than talking down someone on a domestic that says he isn’t going to jail, or that you don’t have enough cops there to take him to jail. Those people can usually be talked down unless large amounts of alcohol are involved.

Of course that’s all arm chair quarterbacking and hindsight; which is what we do. He may have tried to shoot Officers and they acted appropriately; we don’t know.

People are just pizzed because they were there to take guns. Last week they were pizzed because they didn’t take them or commit someone when they had the chance. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. That’s normal though when everyone is judging you.

[E4 No More]

2 hours ago, DaveTN said:

We don’t know what happened in that house or why. One story says his weapon was fired. We don’t know why or how. They didn’t go from zero to gun fire over hearsay; they appear to have done it over a shot being fired.

I wouldn’t have any problem with knocking on the door and talking with the guy. I would let him know that him staying in the house with his guns is not an option and any attempt to do so would result in criminal charges, possibly felonies. No different than talking down someone on a domestic that says he isn’t going to jail, or that you don’t have enough cops there to take him to jail. Those people can usually be talked down unless large amounts of alcohol are involved.

Of course that’s all arm chair quarterbacking and hindsight; which is what we do. He may have tried to shoot Officers and they acted appropriately; we don’t know.

People are just pizzed because they were there to take guns. Last week they were pizzed because they didn’t take them or commit someone when they had the chance. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. That’s normal though when everyone is judging you.

The story that I read said that there was a struggle for the gun and the gun went off during the struggle. Dude better have had the gun is in his hand when they shot him.

 

EDIT: As in the cops struggled with him over the gun. He had put the gun down when he saw it was cops but picked it back up when they said that they were taking his gun away from him.

Edited November 14, 2018 by SWJewellTN

[bersaguy]

Interesting read from USA Today:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/04/19/red-flag-laws-strip-gun-rights-violate-constitution-column/526221002/

[peejman]

4 hours ago, DaveTN said:

We don’t know what happened in that house or why. One story says his weapon was fired. We don’t know why or how. They didn’t go from zero to gun fire over hearsay; they appear to have done it over a shot being fired.

I wouldn’t have any problem with knocking on the door and talking with the guy. I would let him know that him staying in the house with his guns is not an option and any attempt to do so would result in criminal charges, possibly felonies. No different than talking down someone on a domestic that says he isn’t going to jail, or that you don’t have enough cops there to take him to jail. Those people can usually be talked down unless large amounts of alcohol are involved.

Of course that’s all arm chair quarterbacking and hindsight; which is what we do. He may have tried to shoot Officers and they acted appropriately; we don’t know.

People are just pizzed because they were there to take guns. Last week they were pizzed because they didn’t take them or commit someone when they had the chance. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. That’s normal though when everyone is judging you.

If the guy was dangerous enough to confiscate his guns, he was dangerous enough to warrant more than 2 cops at the door.  They shouldn't have let it get to the point of physical struggle. Nothing good comes from a wrestling match. Again, back off, de-escalate, give it time for cooler heads to prevail.... especially since the house is already surrounded (hence more than 2 cops).  

There has to be more steps between zero and gun fight.  If the guy comes out shooting, fine. If the guy just says no, show him a little respect, act like an adult, and talk it out.  If that doesn't work, gas the house and maybe that will help him decide.   

As you say, it's all armchair quarterbacking.  Stuff like this is maddening. 

[gregintenn]

21 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Of course I wouldn’t be happy. Would I pull my gun and engage them? Of course not I would either die or end up in jail. Protecting your family includes not doing something stupid and getting killed or sent to prison and leaving them to fend for themselves.

I don’t have a high opinion of our legal system. Remember me? I’m the one that says you will get exactly as much justice as you can afford, and anyone that thinks they are innocent until proven guilty probably hasn’t been cuffed, stuffed, and booked.

It is flawed and there are bad cops. I know that, acknowledge it and have taught my children how to survive it. The opinions I give here are more to give a person insight on how to keep from getting arrested and going to trial, as opposed to some with no legal experience who think because they read the law they can advise someone how to beat charges at trial; that’s generally a loss. But those types of opinions are usually more popular than mine.

You and I agree on most things including politics and guns; but we are 180 degrees opposed on law enforcement.  I never had to violate someone rights to arrest them or get a conviction and don’t believe it would be required today. However, I doubt you and I would agree on what those rights are.

Good cops make mistakes…period. Will they be fired? Of course not if those mistakes were innocent. If they were intentional or criminal; absolutely they should be held accountable. Are they always? Nope.

I have plenty of ideas that would help cops work better with the community and have a better reputation. They aren’t anything earth shattering that hasn’t been presented before. You have to remember that Police Departments can be day and night different; even in the same state or county. You have to also realize that some people hate cops no matter what they do and some people just hate anyone in authority. No one will ever change those people minds.

I watched that whole series; it was like 10 or 12 hours. How accurate was it? I have no idea. I know they showed that a couple of cops planted evidence. Did that happen? I don’t know; it could have. There are plenty of cases of cops lying or planting evidence. It happened to me. Am I bitter about it? I’m bitter that one criminal SOB that was pissed at me lied. But I couldn’t prove it and it took several years before he was caught, arrested, and fired for doing it to someone else. All the cops on that department weren’t bad.

You haven't watched the WHOLE series....season two is now on Netflix.

[bersaguy]

Well for what it's worth here is the reason the man died and who made the complaint and why?

 

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/red-flag-law-anne-arundel-police-serving-order-to-remove-guns-shoot-kill-armed-man

[DaveTN]

Quote

It’s during the argument, the relative says, Gary Willis made a comment that prompted another member of their family to seek an emergency risk protective order.

Wouldn’t what he said be more important than who reported it? I guess that little piece of information wasn’t important to the reporter.

Wouldn’t a Judge signing a protective order decide if it warranted taking his guns?

Did he do something that placed those in the home in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm?

That’s a reporter tweeting. I don’t see where she added anything we didn’t already know.

 

[Omega]

3 hours ago, bersaguy said:

Well for what it's worth here is the reason the man died and who made the complaint and why?

 

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/red-flag-law-anne-arundel-police-serving-order-to-remove-guns-shoot-kill-armed-man

This should have been seen as its own "Red Flag"

Quote

Within its first month. one-hundred-fourteen ERPOs had been petitioned in Maryland.

 

[gregintenn]

Jilted ex wives and pissed off neighbors are gonna have a field day with this.

[bersaguy]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

Jilted ex wives and pissed off neighbors are gonna have a field day with this.

Yep, for sure any guy that even thinks his ex-wife might do this might just decide to either leave that state or just do a murder suicide and be done with it. If they are already having major issues they cannot settle things it could get really ugly really quick. I'm sure glad Tennessee is not a red flag state>>>>>>>>>>>YET!!!!!!!!!!    Don't really know that much about Bill Lee but if he wants to arm teachers I don't think he is a Red Flag kind of guy............JMHO

[OLDNEWBIE]

5 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Jilted ex wives and pissed off neighbors are gonna have a field day with this.

Asinine law carried out in an asinine way! 

If a guy was/is a credible threat.....Then he needs to be locked up.

So lets say the guy threatens to kill you because your dog keeps crapping in his yard. You call the Cops.

Lets say cops somehow without a fight, manage to get all the guns they know of that he has. Would you feel safer then? 

What if your relative that lives far away calls you up drunk talking suicide because his wife left.

Lets say cops somehow without a fight, manage to get all the guns they know of that he has. Would you stop worrying that he might kill himself?

 

Despite registration laws some States have.... maybe the Stasi doesn't know of all the guns a guy has hidden away.

After all....Orwell's "Big Brother" system hasn't been fully deployed here in the U.S. just yet! 

And if they manage to get all his guns? We all know there are more ways to kill oneself and others without firearms.

 

 

 

 

[Sunfish]

I want to swear out a complaint on Joe Blow or His drama queen wife decides she wants a divorce and her girl friends tell her exactly how to neuter him putting him out of his home and taking his guns away and the old condition of release thing from the judge says he cannot return home. Sadly this kind of thing goes on all the time and a large % of the time it's based on here say or a pre conceived notion. I certainly can see where a person would go off especially if they are having family problems. Also if the News Media tells you the sun is shinning be sure to look up.    

[DaveTN]

16 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Jilted ex wives and pissed off neighbors are gonna have a field day with this.

They already do, and have for over 30 years I know of. They can either make up a story to have you arrested for DV, or just go get an order of protection and leave you out in the cold with no home. You will not be able to defend yourself until days or weeks later. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen an order of protection used to keep someone away while the other half cleaned the house out.

You think taking your guns gets someone upset, how upset do you think they are when they are banned from their home? Then the azzhats that allow this wonder why people (sometimes innocent people) are getting killed.

It’s easy for them to justify it by saying “Well, he beat his wife.” Or “He threatened his wife” Until they find out that didn’t happen. Sometimes it’s too late.

Our discretion on DV was taken away in the early 80’s. And it’s wrong. But the cops get blamed for what the legislature did.

We now live in a time where if someone says you are threatening suicide or violence and a gun is involved; the guns will be removed. And everything they (DA’s and Judges) can do to make sure you don’t get them back will be done.

[bersaguy]

Well I guess I am lucky in that sense. Darby can't talk and if she could the only abuse she could complain about is to much spoiling. My neighbors are all gun owners and we watch out for each other. All of my family are gun owners. I do my best to fly under everyones radar. Hope our new Governor is a Pro-gun 2nd Amendment person. I think he is since he wants to train and arm the teachers in the schools.................JMHO