Red flag laws claim their first victim

[gregintenn]

http://libertycrier.com/breaking-first-gun-confiscation-killing-reported-in-maryland/?fbclid=IwAR2hmZMYujYx_HtBhgRNN1-QVrlzwooudYxmhFNb7VX3dfQB6U3kWliHf_4

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=111169

I wouldn't dispute that there is likely more to this story, but I will dispute the constitutionality of the laws.

[E4 No More]

Nope, no bias in that reporting.

[gregintenn]

50 minutes ago, SWJewellTN said:

Nope, no bias in that reporting.

How do you feel about the law it's self?

[Garufa]

13 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

How do you feel about the law it's self?

I have mixed feelings on these types of laws.  There is no doubt some people should simply not be allowed to have guns in their possession.  There is also the potential for rampant abuse of one’s rights.

[bersaguy]

Ok so I will admit I am dumb when it comes to some of this but doesn't laws need to go through the process of House-Senate-President and signed by President before it is law? Especially when the law is unconstitutional to begin with!!!! 

[GlockSpock]

1 minute ago, bersaguy said:

Ok so I will admit I am dumb when it comes to some of this but doesn't laws need to go through the process of House-Senate-President and signed by President before it is law? Especially when the law is unconstitutional to begin with!!!! 

Not if it is a state law. Replace president with governor. 

[bersaguy]

3 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

Not if it is a state law. Replace president with governor. 

OkThanks!!

[peejman]

I'd say there's no chance this law passes any semblance of a "due process" examination, and it's clearly a 4th Amendment violation. 

But these days, you never know. 

[Omega]

55 minutes ago, peejman said:

I'd say there's no chance this law passes any semblance of a "due process" examination, and it's clearly a 4th Amendment violation. 

But these days, you never know. 

Well, I'm afraid it's been challenged at the state level and been upheld.  I don't know if it's been sent up to SCOTUS or not though.

[gregintenn]

10 hours ago, Omega said:

Well, I'm afraid it's been challenged at the state level and been upheld.  I don't know if it's been sent up to SCOTUS or not though.

I don't believe so. I don't think it'll pass the supreme court with today's membership.

[DaveTN]

He was being served with an Extreme Risk Protective Order issued by a Judge requiring they seize his guns. The stories I see don’t say whether or not he is notified of that request or allowed to be heard. Probably like a domestic violence order of protection where no hearing is required or even offered to put someone out of their house.

This is done a lot throughout the country on domestic violence calls. No real evidence required, simply the word of a family member.

Isn’t this done in Tennessee? Forcible hold in a mental facility and confiscation of weapons? Seems I remember this happening with one of the “prepper” people.

[E4 No More]

13 hours ago, gregintenn said:

How do you feel about the law it's self?

See Garufa's comment.

[peejman]

52 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

He was being served with an Extreme Risk Protective Order issued by a Judge requiring they seize his guns. The stories I see don’t say whether or not he is notified of that request or allowed to be heard. Probably like a domestic violence order of protection where no hearing is required or even offered to put someone out of their house.

This is done a lot throughout the country on domestic violence calls. No real evidence required, simply the word of a family member.

Isn’t this done in Tennessee? Forcible hold in a mental facility and confiscation of weapons? Seems I remember this happening with one of the “prepper” people.

So a judge is signing an order based purely on heresay? And this process is somewhat routine for other issues?

Further confirmation that we have a legal system and not a justice system. 

And for the record, I agree with Garufa's comments. But this is America and we are assured certain inalienable rights. 

[DaveTN]

16 minutes ago, peejman said:

So a judge is signing an order based purely on heresay? And this process is somewhat routine for other issues?

Absolutely. I don’t know all states laws, but I would guess it happens routinely in all states that have domestic violence laws. Simply claiming you threatened them, with no supporting evidence or witnesses is generally enough, and it happens all the time.

If your wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/family member, etc., claims you assaulted or threatened them, you can be cuffed and stuffed. They can get an order of protection keeping you from returning to your house and all weapons can be seized from your house.

Domestic violence laws were changed in the 80’s and they are no joke. Unless you get into felony assault, most Domestic Violence charges are misdemeanors, but a conviction can result in you not being able to own firearms.

[Omega]

2 hours ago, gregintenn said:

I don't believe so. I don't think it'll pass the supreme court with today's membership.

Yea, let's hope so, but it all depends on the argument on both sides.  In my book, if there is enough reason to  disarm someone, then there should be enough reason to charge and jail them or to at least send in for a mental eval, the outcome of which should lock the person up or release without prejudice.

[DaveTN]

2 hours ago, gregintenn said:

I don't believe so. I don't think it'll pass the supreme court with today's membership.

I think they will pass the Supreme Court. The Judge can issue an emergency, temporary order based on the testimony of others until a hearing can be convened with the person in question present with council.

At least this way the person can be free, able to get a lawyer and mount a defense, instead of being arrested on criminal charges. Unless of course the seizure is because of threats that lead to criminal charges.

Is there a better way?

[gregintenn]

It was my understanding that no charges were filed, and the police were not there to arrest him; just confiscate his firearms. I saw no evidence that he was even accused of breaking any laws. I consider this armed robbery.

[DaveTN]

29 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

It was my understanding that no charges were filed, and the police were not there to arrest him; just confiscate his firearms. I saw no evidence that he was even accused of breaking any laws. I consider this armed robbery.

What do you suggest? I’m not arguing it’s a question.

A family member requested the protective order in Maryland.

You see members here blaming the cops in California for what happened at the recent bar shooting. He did not commit a crime, he was not arrested, he was not transported to a mental health facility, and he was not held for observation. (As some claim) Mental health people were sent to his house to talk to him; they did and determined there was no evidence to commit him or arrest him.

Flags were there in the Parkland shooting and the pulse night club shooting. They weren’t acted on.

[bersaguy]

34 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

It was my understanding that no charges were filed, and the police were not there to arrest him; just confiscate his firearms. I saw no evidence that he was even accused of breaking any laws. I consider this armed robbery.

Yep, an armed robbery that turned into much much more than it should have. They should have had a warrant of some kind to give the man instead of just telling him they were there to disarm him. I hope his family sues everyone connected to this crime cause that is what it is. That will probably be the only way to get it in front of the Supreme Court..............JMHO 

[DaveTN]

3 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

Yep, an armed robbery that turned into much much more than it should have. They should have had a warrant of some kind to give the man instead of just telling him they were there to disarm him. I hope his family sues everyone connected to this crime cause that is what it is. That will probably be the only way to get it in front of the Supreme Court..............JMHO 

They did have a court order. How can you call this an armed robbery and blame the cops in CA for not committing the bar shooter who had committed no crime either?

[bersaguy]

9 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

They did have a court order. How can you call this an armed robbery and blame the cops in CA for not committing the bar shooter who had committed no crime either?

This is probably not gonna make much sense but going to say it anyway. The man that was killed over his guns had never been arrested or even a traffic ticket and a complaint from some extended family member was the one the made the request that they just take his guns and it got him killed. I think who ever this person was should be required to file a complaint and provide a reason for the Confiscation for the records should it go to court.  Of course this one won't be except maybe Civil Court. 

The CA shooter had been in trouble with the law when he was young and again when he returned home from Marine Corps. The reason the Mental Crisis Unit was called to his home was because he was having as issue of domestic violence and kicking holes in the Walls of the home they lived in.

Now maybe some people don't see a difference between the 2 cases but I do..............JMHO 

[Photoguy67]

For what it's worth, I believe it's another foot in the door for total gun confiscation. I remember a push years back to demonize gun owners by saying all gun owners were mentally incompetent. Once they determine they can do this, what is to say that they won't go after all gun owners "because someone feels threatened"? Maybe I am too distrustful, but there it is.

[bersaguy]

29 minutes ago, Photoguy67 said:

For what it's worth, I believe it's another foot in the door for total gun confiscation. I remember a push years back to demonize gun owners by saying all gun owners were mentally incompetent. Once they determine they can do this, what is to say that they won't go after all gun owners "because someone feels threatened"? Maybe I am too distrustful, but there it is.

There is little doubt that it is another foot in the door and I think if it gets in front of the Supreme Court it will get the door slammed on their foot and all of the Red Flag bills will get declared Unconstitutional. It's just a matter of getting it into the Courts hands.

You can bet with the death of the man in Maryland the bills are being looked at very carefully by many people and some that have the power to put in in front of the court...........JMHO

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

What do you suggest? I’m not arguing it’s a question.

Due process? Pretend what happened to this guy happened to you because a pizzas off neighbor called in on you.

We need some system to deal with the mentally ill. There aren't any easy answers.

[DaveTN]

28 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Due process? Pretend what happened to this guy happened to you because a pizzas off neighbor called in on you.

We need some system to deal with the mentally ill. There aren't any easy answers.

I don’t see where due process didn’t happen here. A family member instigated this, not the cops. We have no idea what they claimed. But a Judge heard it and issued the order, same as a warrant. The man could have then went to court and argued his case. That is due process.

Subpoenaing someone to court because you are going to have a hearing about confiscating their guns won’t work.

It’s not just the mentally ill, domestic violence calls are very dangerous for everyone involved. They are very emotional; and they can turn deadly quick; for both cops and citizens. I know I’ve seen it too many times firsthand.

I’ve always said orders of protection are a problem. I’ve explained to people that they don’t protect them; they just allow the cops to arrest the person if they violate them. Too often when they are violated the offender and family members are dead.

We can’t stop that any more than we can stop mass shootings. So do we do nothing? I don’t have the answers; only suggestions.

But I have zero sympathy for anyone that directs violence towards another person. Whether that be family members, friends, or the cops dispatched to their house because they can’t handle their own family issues.

As I’ve told my friends and family; the cops are not your friend. They are not social workers and they are not going to fix your problems. If you have a family member or friend that needs professional help; get it for them. Rarely will an arrest make that happen.