California bar shooting leaves 12 dead

[bersaguy]

I have said in the past a couple times that a person with training with a heavy caliber hand gun in a crowded venue such as a club like last night would be able to kill as many or more than someone with an AR and an example of that took place last night.

Blaming the gun is not the answer but you wil never convince the politicians of that. They had this guy in their hands last April and knew he was suffering with some mental issues. It has not been made clear yet when and where he got the gun he used. Did he already have it when they were investigating him or did he get it after they turned him loose. I don't think that questiion has been asked yet. If so I missed it.

It won't change anything now but would be interesting to know the answer to that question.

  

Edited November 8, 2018 by bersaguy

[bersaguy]

Ok, more news has been released about the shooter. Back in April he was diagnosed with PTSD by doctors after the police had to go back to his mothers home where he lived on what police said was numerous times for his violent out bursts.  He would kick holes in the house walls. They recomended he seek help for his issues and he refused several times. People that knew him could see him changing and his personality had went from bad to worst in the last couple month. There was RED FLAGS waving all over this guy. See paragraph below from Sheriff Dean below: I wonder how this so called Mental Health Crisis Team is looking back to April now????

  In April, Dean said his department was called to Long's home because of a domestic dispute, where he was "somewhat irate and acting irrationally." A mental health crisis team concluded that Long didn't need to be taken into custody at the time.

 

[DaveTN]

31 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

Ok, more news has been released about the shooter. Back in April he was diagnosed with PTSD by doctors after the police had to go back to his mothers home where he lived on what police said was numerous times for his violent out bursts.  He would kick holes in the house walls. They recomended he seek help for his issues and he refused several times. People that knew him could see him changing and his personality had went from bad to worst in the last couple month. There was RED FLAGS waving all over this guy. See paragraph below from Sheriff Dean below: I wonder how this so called Mental Health Crisis Team is looking back to April now????

  In April, Dean said his department was called to Long's home because of a domestic dispute, where he was "somewhat irate and acting irrationally." A mental health crisis team concluded that Long didn't need to be taken into custody at the time.

 

Liberty and Mental Health are problems. I dealt with it first hand as a Police Officer. Our state had no way to hold a person that had not committed a crime. We could try to talk them into voluntary commitment and in some cases where they had committed a minor offense we could give them the choice of voluntary commitment or being arrested. But if we arrested them the County jail wanted them out as soon as possible because they didn’t want the responsibility or the cost of a mental case.

I don’t think you can stop people from taking out a gun and killing people anywhere. The best you can hope for is someone has the ability and the desire to stop the attack.

Mental health people can’t see into the future. The shooter is the sole person responsible; no one else.

[bersaguy]

4 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Liberty and Mental Health are problems. I dealt with it first hand as a Police Officer. Our state had no way to hold a person that had not committed a crime. We could try to talk them into voluntary commitment and in some cases where they had committed a minor offense we could give them the choice of voluntary commitment or being arrested. But if we arrested them the County jail wanted them out as soon as possible because they didn’t want the responsibility or the cost of a mental case.

I don’t think you can stop people from taking out a gun and killing people anywhere. The best you can hope for is someone has the ability and the desire to stop the attack.

Mental health people can’t see into the future. The shooter is the sole person responsible; no one else.

Well I guess I can agree with you on this but when they went to the house for domestic disturbance they had grounds to arrest him and they had a Mental Help Crisis Team examine him and they could have had him placed in a facility for observation. People that knew him saw issues in him developing. They say if you see something say something and when people say something nothing gets done.

I will say this which chances of it happening is slim to none because I don't go to places where these things happen but say I did. You can bet if I am there and packing I'm shooting at the bad guy until one of us stops the other or we both run out of ammo. I would be hoping there were another good guy or 2 show pretty quick.

 

[Grayfox54]

I'm all for getting the mentally ill off the streets and giving them help. But these Red Flag laws scare the hell out of me. The potential for abuse is mind staggering.

In this case, and I'm sure many others. the cops were probably more concerned with possible lawsuits than getting this guy help. So they cut him loose. 

[bersaguy]

The news said earlier that he had a few run ins with the law prior to joining the Marine Corps and said that he seemed to have mental issues off and on and they don't think he was suffering from PTSD when he made the decision to shoot up the Club. They think he went there because he thought his ex-girlfriend might be there. At least they are coming up with some information on the invesgation and being transparent with them.

[pop pop]

Like it or not we had better get ready for some drastic new gun laws, and bans, in our future. There are too many of these instances happening and it is getting too much media for it not to take place. I can only hope the senate and president can and will stop them. I don't trust Trump on signing "Reasonable Gun laws"  because I think he can be persuaded to do it. Our only other hope is the Senate and I am not sure about them. 

These laws will do nothing to stop this nor will they stop if the confiscate every gun they can. Only good guys with guns have a chance of stopping them as they are happening. All the bans will do is take away options for good people to protect themselves.

On another board I go too, there is a post saying we had better get revolvers and lever guns in our collections because they are saying all semi autos are on the chopping block. Then when that don't stop this, then they will outlaw all guns will eventually be taken away.

The sad lady, on T V interview yesterday,  who lost her son said, "I don't want no more thoughts and prayers, she wanted gun control." Now what doe she mean when she says gun control. IMO, she wants all guns taken away from all.   

I can remember when TN closed most of the mental health institutions, they just released the patients to their families, and those with no families they turned out on the streets. It took TN 20 years and millions of dollars, to settle all the lawsuits people filed against the mental health system her in TN.

I had a friend that put his mother in law in an institution because they could not longer take care of her at home. She had Alzheimer's. They went to visit her and she lost her false teeth, someone else had her glasses and she had a black eye where another patient had hit her. His wife went into the administrator's office and blessed him out. He listened and politely told her, "We are sorry, but we can not sit with your mother 24 hrs per day and we do the best as we can.  Sometimes there are things that happen, in here, because these patients are not well.   I can't tell you this won't again, but you do have the option of just taking her home. My friend said, After they thought about that,  they came away with a different attitude." 

That is kinda like all those people who filed the lawsuits against the TN Mental Health System.  Those people were sick, and did unreasonable things. Very few caregivers go to work with the idea I am going to allow someone to hurt someone else today.  Things happen in those places. Their option was to take their loved one home, but they couldn't manage to control them either, so their in lies the dilemma.  IMO, the states are not going to get back into the Mental Health situation any longer. They only have a  minimal system now.

Sometimes we, as a people, are really unreasonable when it comes to our loved ones care. Don't get me wrong bad things did happen in that system, but just like my friends M I L, they couldn't no longer care for her at home, so they had no other viable options.

The mentally ill are among us. That is a huge problem for society today. They do bad things, sometimes!  

 

 

[bersaguy]

And how long ago was when the State of Tennessee got out of the mental health business. I bet it was before we have the technology of today. As far as a person with  Alzheimer's should not be placed in a mental facility to begin with. They are not mentally ill. They are forgetful and need to be in a nursing homes or depending on how much attention they need maybe an Assisted Living Facility but not a Mentally Ill facility.

If the Authorities were as concerned about mental health as some claim to be let them use all this technology we have that sends men to the moon and give folks Satelite TV and all these other fancy gadgets.

 Let them get their focus on building some State of the Art Mental Health facilities that will actually do what they are suppose to do. Show folks that they do have people capable of doing something positive with our tax beside give themselves raises and sit on the a$$.

[bersaguy]

20 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

I'm all for getting the mentally ill off the streets and giving them help. But these Red Flag laws scare the hell out of me. The potential for abuse is mind staggering.

In this case, and I'm sure many others. the cops were probably more concerned with possible lawsuits than getting this guy help. So they cut him loose. 

Well I can see your point but what about the lawsuits that might follow if people realizes they had this guy in custody in April and he was examined by a Mental Crisis Group that stated he did have issues but they didn't feel it would be enough to hold him longer than the observation period and now we see how wrong they were about him. Maybe had they held him a little longer and studied him a little more. You know, do the homework they might have saw the side of him that came out in the Bar the other night an prevented it.

What is more important? Worring about lawsuits that might or might not happen or worrying about a man that has dangerous tendencies being turned back out into society? They already knew he was violent is why the police had him in the first place. He was in a rampage and kicking holes if the walls of the house! 

Did they check his facebook posts while they had him. Even back in High School when they had him sign in the section of future plans he printed the word DEATH in all caps.

I know you said you fear RED FLAGS but maybe ever so often they are right..............JMHO  

[DaveTN]

20 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

Well I can see your point but what about the lawsuits that might follow if people realizes they had this guy in custody in April and he was examined by a Mental Crisis Group that stated he did have issues but they didn't feel it would be enough to hold him longer than the observation period and now we see how wrong they were about him. Maybe had they held him a little longer and studied him a little more. You know, do the homework they might have saw the side of him that came out in the Bar the other night an prevented it.

Was the guy in custody? Did they take him somewhere? Was he held for an observation period? Did he commit a crime? Did the state he was in allow them to hold him somewhere without committing a crime?

[bersaguy]

3 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Was the guy in custody? Did they take him somewhere? Was he held for an observation period? Did he commit a crime? Did the state he was in allow them to hold him somewhere without committing a crime?

According to the reports that were released. Yes, he was in custody for domestic Violence and taken to jail. Yes he was held for observation by a Mental Crisis Team for 24 hours. The team decided he was not unstable enough to hold him and the state was California and I am not sure how their laws read on what is to unstable and requires holding a person.

[pop pop]

bersaguy, my friend's mother in law was in an Alzheimer's unit, and not a mental facility. Sorry for the misunderstanding.  I know there is a difference between Mental Illness and Alzheimer's but was just using the friend's mother as an example of how patient families often react to what goes on in any facility where their family member is being cared for. 

My mother had this disease and they go through a stage of  violence, and they just knocking the fool out of whoever is close.  My mother slapped a nurse and broke her glasses, as they were putting her in the bed. Mother had to be moved to a unit for Alzheimer's care. 

TN got out of the Mental Health housing  business in the late 60 to early 70, for the most part. It is my  understanding that  TN still have testing and outpatient treatment facilities, but in a very limited way.  Not a lot of State owned long term Mental Hospital facilities any more, nor do I think they would touch it with a 10' pole. 

Edited November 10, 2018 by pop pop

[bersaguy]

4 minutes ago, pop pop said:

bersaguy, my friend's mother in law was in an Alzheimer's unit, and not a mental facility. 

Well I am sorry for your friends MIL but evidently someone is not doing their job. My Daughter is an RN  at a facility that works primarily with Alzheimers and the elderly and according to talks we have had people suffering from Alzheimers are for the most part non violent easy to work with patients that mostly require just the basic care such as dressing and eating and most normal everyday essentials. Maybe they might want to search out another facility. 

[Erik88]

The fatal round that struck the officer was friendly fire. That just shows how intense and chaotic those situations must be. 

"Sgt. Ron Helus was struck five times by gunfire from the suspect, Ian David Long, according to Ventura County Sheriff Bill Ayub, but was hit by a sixth bullet from a CHP officer's rifle.
Helus could have potentially survived the five wounds from Long's weapon, but the sixth bullet, fired by the CHP officer who entered the bar with Helus, proved fatal. It struck Helus in the chest and his heart, according to Dr. Christopher Young, the Ventura County medical examiner."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/07/us/ron-helus-california-highway-patrol-thousand-oaks-shooting/index.html