Rant: Snubbies and new shooters

[wjh2657]

Many will recognize from previous posts that I am a confirmed J-Frame guy. EDC one 7 days a week. But I also practice a lot. 50 Rounds 3-4X a week with a 317 in Garage range and once a week with EDCs in .38 at indoor range.

My wife has a Model 60 but with 3" barrel ( Kit Gun Configuration) and good sights. I tried to find a K-Frame in 3" but they seem to have gone extinct. I still believe in the KISS principle of revolver shooting but I have to agree that a 2" snubby is terrible choice for beginner. I believe that the old Model 10 or a derivative is the best starter for a beginner. Preferably in 3" and round butt, but a round butt 4" will do in a pinch.

There is also a whole different mindset with a snubbie. Realistic combat is 5 shots and range is <10yards. this entails :

Stay the Gray Man ( be invisible!)

Avoid situations that would entail multiple targets (walk away a lot)

Give up trying to be John Wayne ( Don't goad others into gunfights)

Stay out of Dark alleys with hopes of getting some sort of medal.

In short, snubbie folks need to practice more discretion because they are not going to be demonstrating how much they learned at the latest new shooting school.

Rules of snubbie etiquette:

Avoid arguments and fights.

Avoid mean, big, stupid people.(Especially around alcohol)

Avoid big groups of young men who look hungry.

Improve your speed at walking backwards.

Get good at looking for places to hide.

I know this runs against the grain for a lot of pistoleros but snubbie guys just want to stay alive and do not need to prove anything to lots of LEOs, Judges and juries.

By the way. If all of the above doesn't work (try them first!) then empty 5 fast in COM before the BG can get his hands on you. But this is the last resort!

[Guest HexHead]

There is also a whole different mindset with a snubbie. Realistic combat is 5 shots and range is <10yards. this entails :

Stay the Gray Man ( be invisible!)

Avoid situations that would entail multiple targets (walk away a lot)

Give up trying to be John Wayne ( Don't goad others into gunfights)

Stay out of Dark alleys with hopes of getting some sort of medal.

In short, snubbie folks need to practice more discretion because they are not going to be demonstrating how much they learned at the latest new shooting school.

Rules of snubbie etiquette:

Avoid arguments and fights.

Avoid mean, big, stupid people.(Especially around alcohol)

Avoid big groups of young men who look hungry.

Improve your speed at walking backwards.

Get good at looking for places to hide.

I know this runs against the grain for a lot of pistoleros but snubbie guys just want to stay alive and do not need to prove anything to lots of LEOs, Judges and juries.

That's all good advice regardless of what you carry.

[Guest Grout]

That's all good advice regardless of what you carry.

+ infinity.

[Guest mustangdave]

I read through this whole thread...pretty much I did things right...except for having the wife trained by Buford(lots of negatives on here about him...LOL). Took her out shopping...pretty much let her talk to the guys behind the counter...while I lookie-lewd. She purchased an SP101, over the course of a couple years and a bit more experience shooting she has since down sized to a Bersa 380...still has the Ruger as a back up

[Guest GunnerD]

I have a S&W 642 J-frame that I carry most of the time because it is:

1. Lightweight
   
2. Easily carried. I have a tactical holster I use most days but also a Galco pocket holster that allows me to carry the gun in my back jeans pocket.
   
3. Doesn't have jamming problems
   

That said, it is a hard gun to fire and fire accurately. The sights are very difficult for someone who does not spend a lot of time on the range mastering their weapon. Also, the blowback on the gun is unnaturally strong.

My other carry gun is a Taurus 24/7 Spec. Ed. 40. It is a little heavier but shoots smooth as butter (feels like I am shooting a CO2 pistol!). Obviously, not at easy to carry but the sights are awesome and I feel confident that I can acquire the target in a short amount of time.

At the end of the day, beginning shooters should spend some time at a good range, rent a couple guns that feel good in their hands and see what they end up with.

[RoDan]

With my 642, I can punch the same hole with all 5 shots at about 7 yards or so. That's SLOW firing, with some Bright Sights paint on the front sight. If I try to rapid fire it, even in the slightest, I can not keep it on target to save my life, literally. This is why I do not carry it, it is in the house as a strategically placed BUG and a gun that anyone in my family can grab in a hurry and use (maybe not effectively, but better than nothing!) if the need should arise. With practice, I could probably get proficient with it, but even then I don't know how well that practice would hold up in a high stress situation. That is why I have my g26, if my practice should all fly out the window in a SHTF moment, at least I'll have an extremely simple gun to operate that has enough rounds to "spray and pray".

[wjh2657]

Again verifying the main point: If you carry a snubby, lots of practice. If you can keep the shots in a small group slow, then it is somewhere in your trigger control that is throwing you off in rapid fire. I use a 317 in .22lr and a bullet trap to practice almost daily. My accuracy in rapid fire is now pretty deadly, but it does take the will and expense to practice often. I have no problem with recoil recovery, so trigger squeeze is the main issue, .22 is as good as .38 for practicing that. Maybe even a little better since 317 is all aluminum and lighter than my EDCs.

[deerslayer]

Many will recognize from previous posts that I am a confirmed J-Frame guy. EDC one 7 days a week. But I also practice a lot. 50 Rounds 3-4X a week with a 317 in Garage range and once a week with EDCs in .38 at indoor range.

My wife has a Model 60 but with 3" barrel ( Kit Gun Configuration) and good sights. I tried to find a K-Frame in 3" but they seem to have gone extinct. I still believe in the KISS principle of revolver shooting but I have to agree that a 2" snubby is terrible choice for beginner. I believe that the old Model 10 or a derivative is the best starter for a beginner. Preferably in 3" and round butt, but a round butt 4" will do in a pinch.

There is also a whole different mindset with a snubbie. Realistic combat is 5 shots and range is <10yards. this entails :

Stay the Gray Man ( be invisible!)

Avoid situations that would entail multiple targets (walk away a lot)

Give up trying to be John Wayne ( Don't goad others into gunfights)

Stay out of Dark alleys with hopes of getting some sort of medal.

In short, snubbie folks need to practice more discretion because they are not going to be demonstrating how much they learned at the latest new shooting school.

Rules of snubbie etiquette:

Avoid arguments and fights.

Avoid mean, big, stupid people.(Especially around alcohol)

Avoid big groups of young men who look hungry.

Improve your speed at walking backwards.

Get good at looking for places to hide.

I know this runs against the grain for a lot of pistoleros but snubbie guys just want to stay alive and do not need to prove anything to lots of LEOs, Judges and juries.

By the way. If all of the above doesn't work (try them first!) then empty 5 fast in COM before the BG can get his hands on you. But this is the last resort!

Good advice except for the assumption that "realistic combat" never involves more than five rounds...

[wjh2657]

I should have used phrase "realistic situation ." Remember I am talking "in the parking lot or at the ATM" type scenarios. Again combat is a different situation than Self Defense. Combat is at least two adversaries, like armed, and taking on an adverserial posture (Albeit not always out of choice!). Self defense is being jumped and at relative close range. If you are jumped from under 10 yards (Predominant range for start of attack) you are not going to be reloading. As this post is about snubbies, and Colt is no longer in that business, it safe to say that most snubbies are going to be of the five shot variety.

Combat (Long Range shootouts) BTW is often classified as a "Gunfight" in Tennessee courts and both parties are likely be viewed as willing participants. One dies and one goes to prison. (ref: read statutes pertaining to bringing a gun to a gunfight.) It is not necessarily true that this will always be the case, but it is very possible.

Although there is no requirement in the law that you retreat, if withdrawal was possible (In the eyes of the Presecutor and Jury) and you elected to stick around, then you obviously wanted to engage in the "gunfight", and this is the argument that may be used.

As far as fancy shooting is concerned (triple taps, combat reloads, changing positions, etc) I do have some experience to relate. In Nam (three combat tours) I watch battle hardened and well trained Marines go to pure panic fire with no fire discipline when the enemy over ran positions or jumped patrols at close range. It is a natural instinct and I for one do not believe that any fancy school of shooting is actually going to overcome it. I had two tours in the "bush" and was a Gunsite graduate by my 3rd tour of RVN. During that tour on occasion of close encounter with enemy we all, including me went to fast firing and pointing. Numerous reports of Police and BG shootouts bear this response out.

If you are going to point and fire fast, practice for it. This is "snubbie country" close and fast. Would I carry a snubby for primary if I were in Law Enforcement or Security work? Absolutely not, "Combat" is the true game in this that scenario. I'd want a large caliber Semi-Auto and lots of loaded magazines. But the post is about snubbies!

Edited January 31, 2009 by wjh2657

[deerslayer]

combat, self-defense.

tomato, tomota.

Three thugs with bad intentions may require more than five hits, which may well require more than five rounds. Handguns are merely loud BB guns. I may not always be able to simply run away or avoid the area. I've never been in the Marines or to Vietnam or to Gunsite, but I have learned to never say something can never happen. Thus, I don't carry according to what the so called "average" gunfight is thought to be.

[frankmako]

i have helped many into their first gun. i have found that a wheel gun was the best way to go. a wheel gun is easy to operate and maintain for the first time gun owner.

[Guest Loaded247]

All I know is, you all made me want to go out and buy myself another snub nose...

I sold mine last year, but now I want another...

[Guest jackdog]

It really doesn't matter if a first gun is a semi auto or a wheel gun. What does matter is the training and knowing the manual of arms for said weapon. And that requires proper instruction a willingness to learn and a crap load of practice. If you don't do the above you are asking to put your self in a major world of hurt. The thing with most people is they stand flat footed getting a correct sight picture and the squeeze the trigger. They rarely practice clearing leather, moving while firing and firing while seeking cover. All of this is a requirement if you plan to carry, just my two cents

[moondawg]

There is also a whole different mindset with a snubbie. Realistic combat is 5 shots and range is <10yards. this entails :

Stay the Gray Man ( be invisible!)

Avoid situations that would entail multiple targets (walk away a lot)

Give up trying to be John Wayne ( Don't goad others into gunfights)

Stay out of Dark alleys with hopes of getting some sort of medal.

In short, snubbie folks need to practice more discretion because they are not going to be demonstrating how much they learned at the latest new shooting school.

Rules of snubbie etiquette:

Avoid arguments and fights.

Avoid mean, big, stupid people.(Especially around alcohol)

Avoid big groups of young men who look hungry.

Improve your speed at walking backwards.

Get good at looking for places to hide.

I know this runs against the grain for a lot of pistoleros but snubbie guys just want to stay alive and do not need to prove anything to lots of LEOs, Judges and juries.

By the way. If all of the above doesn't work (try them first!) then empty 5 fast in COM before the BG can get his hands on you. But this is the last resort!

VERY good and sound advice.

My first experience with a revolver was with a S&W Model 10. I liked it, did well with it, and should have bought one!

[Guest gunslinger707]

Many will recognize from previous posts that I am a confirmed J-Frame guy. EDC one 7 days a week. But I also practice a lot. 50 Rounds 3-4X a week with a 317 in Garage range and once a week with EDCs in .38 at indoor range.

My wife has a Model 60 but with 3" barrel ( Kit Gun Configuration) and good sights. I tried to find a K-Frame in 3" but they seem to have gone extinct. I still believe in the KISS principle of revolver shooting but I have to agree that a 2" snubby is terrible choice for beginner. I believe that the old Model 10 or a derivative is the best starter for a beginner. Preferably in 3" and round butt, but a round butt 4" will do in a pinch.

There is also a whole different mindset with a snubbie. Realistic combat is 5 shots and range is <10yards. this entails :

Stay the Gray Man ( be invisible!)

Avoid situations that would entail multiple targets (walk away a lot)

Give up trying to be John Wayne ( Don't goad others into gunfights)

Stay out of Dark alleys with hopes of getting some sort of medal.

In short, snubbie folks need to practice more discretion because they are not going to be demonstrating how much they learned at the latest new shooting school.

Rules of snubbie etiquette:

Avoid arguments and fights.

Avoid mean, big, stupid people.(Especially around alcohol)

Avoid big groups of young men who look hungry.

Improve your speed at walking backwards.

Get good at looking for places to hide.

I know this runs against the grain for a lot of pistoleros but snubbie guys just want to stay alive and do not need to prove anything to lots of LEOs, Judges and juries.

By the way. If all of the above doesn't work (try them first!) then empty 5 fast in COM before the BG can get his hands on you. But this is the last resort!

Good advice regardless of what you carry !!!! jmho:)

[jughead]

my wife carrys a snubby because she cant rack the slide. dang it she out shoots me most of the time.

[Guest oldhack62]

Well, I'm NOT a new shooter. I have a dozen semi-auto pistols, which I shoot pretty well (one-hand, off-handed, etc.), and I AM permitted to carry.

I recently laid away a .38 Special snubbie (I would have preferred a .357 magnum, but none was available at a price I wished to pay). And, I expect it to be about what I expect in a semi-auto (the model is DA on the first pull, SA following).

I will carry it mostly as a backup -- because I don't like the limited capacity -- or when I have no other means of concealing a full-sized pistol (yes, I realize carry in Tennessee need not be concealed, but I don't wish to advertise my status and make myself a BG target).

I simply look at it as another option.

Edited February 2, 2009 by oldhack62

[Oh Shoot]

... And, I expect it to be about what I expect in a semi-auto (the model is DA on the first pull, SA following)....

Sounds like you just said you found a revolver that cocks itself after the first round?

Lay that on us again?

- OS

[Mike.357]

one big drawback to a revolver is being able to properly do a double tap with it.

But then again the double tap IMHO overrated. The average person is not going to be able to pull off an accurate double tap anyway.

[Guest nosnos]

Ms. Dr. Pepper

I think I love you. I am married and all, but hey you are the perfect internet girlfriend.

Just kidding, but I really did like what you had to say.

That's MRS. Dr. Pepper to you, bub.

Ha ha.. But she IS a dream come true.

[Guest Dr. Pepper]

I agree with what 323SSPLT, the lovely (and awesome, by the way) Ms. Dr. Pepper, and Punisher have all said, very much so.

She also LOVES shooting 1911's.

The first words out of her mouth the last time we went to Range USA, as soon as I had put the range bag down . . . She looks at me, palm out-stretched, and says in that "Do what I say" voice . . .

"Gimme your forty-five." Yes, I love her.

Someone buy this man a beer! You, sir, have said everything I was going to say, far more eloquently than I would be capable of doing.

I think I have the answer, and I said this in my first post...... .45s all around!

Honestly, I don't know what it is, maybe it's that the gun absorbs more of the recoil -- I think someone else mentioned that his wife described it as more of a push -- but the 1911s are very nice to shoot (that Browning was an engineering genius). Far better than a snubbie. In fact, maybe it's the TN Gun Owner voice getting into my head, but I'm now considering changing my carry gun to a .45.

Racking the slide comes with practice, IMHO (for some people; when it's not easy at first). I guess that's some of the argument, that a lot of people just want the peace of mind that comes with having a gun, and they're not going to invest time in it (boo!) and so a snubbie IS their savior. But even if I had one in our collection I wouldn't use it as my carry gun.

Ms. Dr. Pepper

I think I love you. I am married and all, but hey you are the perfect internet girlfriend.

Just kidding, but I really did like what you had to say.

Thanks! I'm sure it's just that anime chick swaying your perception. Anime chicks with guns always do that.

I'm taken too! By Nos Nos. He nurtures my gun lust. [insert evil laugh here.]

[K191145]

I agree with Canyn. One of the most common questions I ask new shooters looking for a carry gun or even home defense gun is how often they intend to practice.

Alot of people just want the security and peace of mind of owning a firearm. They do not want to shoot IDPA, take advanced classes, or become "gun people." For these people a revolver is just fine. It's simple to clean and operate.

Plus, teaching someone to shoot a DA revolver is alot easier than teaching someone how to clear a jam or operate a semi-auto reliably if they aren't going to devote much time to train. A DA trigger pull is easy to overcome by doing hand exercises and strengthening the grip and trigger finger.

Just my 2 pennies as well.

EDIT: I do also agree that just handing someone a 2" snubby as the end all be all is not the answer either.

I'm in the revolver crowd also for new shooters, what you said about practice is key. Too many gun owners buy a handgun, take it to the range and shoot a couple of boxes of ammo then put it in their nightstand drawer and never clean and lube it. For those people I believe they're better served with a revolver.

[Guest oldhack62]

Sounds like you just said you found a revolver that cocks itself after the first round?

Lay that on us again?

- OS

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=301&category=Revolver

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=309&category=Revolver#

Now, admittedly, in the second instance -- which is most like the one I'm purchasing -- I don't really know how that can be, but that's what "DA/SA" action means, right?

Edited February 3, 2009 by oldhack62

[Oh Shoot]

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=301&category=Revolver

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=309&category=Revolver#

Now, admittedly, in the second instance -- which is most like the one I'm purchasing -- I don't really know how that can be, but that's what "DA/SA" action means, right?

DA/SA means the gun can be fired in either Double Action (simply pulling trigger, which cocks and fires gun) or Single Action (cocking trigger manually, then firing with trigger).

Each time you fire, you "select" SA or DA.

The revo in first link has a cockable hammer, it's just shrouded, unlike the revo in the second link, which has full thumb hammer.

There are semi-auto pistols which really CAN fire DA on first round, and then become SA on subsequent rounds, and I thought you were actually claiming there was a revolver that could do the same.

- OS

[Mark@Sea]

Purse gun - has to function after long periods of being tumbled in purse lint. Has to be easily, intuitively operated by a non-gunny within split seconds of being grabbed for the first time in 3 months or more, and safely carried with/ easily extracted from with the typically 147 various objects found in the average purse.

As much as I admire the 1911, and the M1903, I respectfully submit that they don't fill the bill nearly as well as a S&W Chiefs' Special.

There are semi-auto pistols which really CAN fire DA on first round, and then become SA on subsequent rounds, and I thought you were actually claiming there was a revolver that could do the same.

That would be the Webley-Fosbery Self-Cocking Automatic Revolver.

Do I get a cookie?

Edited February 3, 2009 by Mark@Sea