Rant: Snubbies and new shooters

[Guest truthsayer]

If I see one more person recommend a DA snubnose revolver to a new shooter, I'm going to facepalm for the foreseeable future. Here's how I see it. You may disagree, and that's fine. Feel free, because I'm feeling liberal this morning and will, no doubt, find some obscure and skewed statistical data to prove you wrong knowing full well that nothing you say can change my mind.

The pros:

Light weight

Concealable

Simple maunal of arms

Decent ballistics

Reliable

The cons:

Difficult trigger pull

Short sight radius

Limited capacity

More training required to reload proficiently

Recoil

Compare the stats and the anecdotal evidence on the S&W 442 and the G26 and you just might find that the Glock is a better system for a new shooter. I've spent a ton of time training with my snubbie, an almost equal amount of time with DAO semis, and there's no way I would recommend a short-barreled wheelgun to a new shooter. The sights aren't nearly as easy to pick up from the draw, the trigger pull is harder, and the sight radius is a little shorter. My only consolation is that there might only be 5 rounds sprayed all around the BG.

[bvarnell]

+1

A 2" j-frame is not the easiest handgun to master.

[Guest canynracer]

and if the new shooter can barley operate the slide, and that glock 26 jams up?

I am not disagreeing with you, I just dont think all new shooters need semi autos...I have seen some that cant operate the slide at all, let alone if there is a misfeed and they need to quickly clear it.

each shooter new and old needs what best fits THEM as individuals.

my 2 cents

[Guest bkelm18]

[The Average Joe]

I'm going with canyonracer on this one....

I'd much rather my wife (untrained) have a .38 S&W DA revolver, than a Glock... or a 1911, or any semi-auto for that matter.

Semi-autos, to the untrained, are complicated.

Revolvers have less complicated and are easily checked to be loaded/unloaded.

FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BUY A GUN FOR SELF DEFENSE AND HAS NEVER SHOT/OWNED A GUN....I ALWAYS RECOMMEND A .38 LADY SMITH OR REASONABLE FACSIMILY. Barrel length be left up to the gun owner.

Gotta walk before you can run.

[creeky]

I am not disagreeing with you, I just don't think all new shooters need semi autos...I have seen some that can't operate the slide at all, let alone if there is a misfeed and they need to quickly clear it.

I have seen the same thing myself. A friend wanted a gun for his wife to keep in the house and asked me and a friend for a suggestion. Independently we both suggested a .38 revolver with a 3" barrel, or the same in .357 loaded with .38s.

He bought her a semi-auto 9mm. She is older and has a problem with her wrist. (That we all new about!) Guess what... yup. Can't rack the slide.

Each shooter new and old needs what best fits THEM as individuals. my 2 cents

That is a key point, and to me the most important. It's hard to come up with an end all gun for everyone. Too many variables with people. Size, skill level, willingness to practice, how they plan to use it, etc. Also... just my two cents as well.

[Guest canynracer]

whatever, youre just mad cause its YOU that cant rack the slide!

[Mark@Sea]

The first handgun I offered my new shooter wife was a Colt 1903M (it was what I had handy at the time). She didn't like the way it felt. Tried an officers' model 45 - she couldn't work the slide. Then a S&W Target Masterpiece (K38?). It was too heavy. She tried a 38 snubby I retrieved from storage, and never looked back. Qualified for her HCP with it. She did, eventually, allow me to put lasergrips on it.

Snubbies have been a top choice for a long, long time.

[Guest bkelm18]

whatever, youre just mad cause its YOU that cant rack the slide!

Must you mock me?

[G27]

whatever, youre just mad cause its YOU that cant rack the slide!

Ooooh, BURN!

[Guest truthsayer]

and if the new shooter can barley operate the slide, and that glock 26 jams up?

I am not disagreeing with you, I just dont think all new shooters need semi autos...I have seen some that cant operate the slide at all, let alone if there is a misfeed and they need to quickly clear it.

each shooter new and old needs what best fits THEM as individuals.

my 2 cents

I agree. We all know that each shooter needs to use what's best for him/her. Having said that, I don't think the default answer should be a snubbie. I'm not saying it should be a semi, either. More to to point, there should be no answer resembling "You need a/an ______." We should suggest training and experimentation instead of making it seem like we're suggesting the easiest option. Is it easier to get a booooolit to fly out of the business end of a snubbie? For some, yes. Is it the best option? Go try it and see, preferably as a part of a decent commitment to going armed responsibly.

I'm going with canyonracer on this one....

I'd much rather my wife (untrained) have a .38 S&W DA revolver, than a Glock... or a 1911, or any semi-auto for that matter.

Semi-autos, to the untrained, are complicated.

Revolvers have less complicated and are easily checked to be loaded/unloaded.

FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BUY A GUN FOR SELF DEFENSE AND HAS NEVER SHOT/OWNED A GUN....I ALWAYS RECOMMEND A .38 LADY SMITH OR REASONABLE FACSIMILY. Barrel length be left up to the gun owner.

Gotta walk before you can run.

And you're exactly the kind of person I'm talking about. Yes, the manual of arms may include a few more steps, but we're adults that can operate computers and motor vehicles. Operating a Glock isn't rocket surgery. It's also not as difficult as some make it seem. Remember when OJ tried to put his glove on and it wouldn't fit? It might be because he didn't want it to fit. Technique and motivation go a long way.

Oh, and your wife should be trained if she's going to carry or be around guns. I'm all for gun ownership. However, we need fewer "owners" and more "shooters." I accept that this is my judgment and not necessarily a fact.

I have seen the same thing myself. A friend wanted a gun for his wife to keep in the house and asked me and a friend for a suggestion. Independently we both suggested a .38 revolver with a 3" barrel, or the same in .357 loaded with .38s.

He bought her a semi-auto 9mm. She is older and has a problem with her wrist. (That we all new about!) Guess what... yup. Can't rack the slide.

That is a key point, and to me the most important. It's hard to come up with an end all gun for everyone. Too many variables with people. Size, skill level, willingness to practice, how they plan to use it, etc. Also... just my two cents as well.

I wouldn't want an older person that is incapable of operating a slide trying to keep the front sight of a wheelgun on target through a stock DA trigger pull in my home or general vicinity. If we start talking about altered triggers, I'm just going to bring out the lighter recoil spring card, so be warned.

You also speak to the point that there is no acceptable default answer, which is what I believe.

[Guest truthsayer]

The first handgun I offered my new shooter wife was a Colt 1903M (it was what I had handy at the time). She didn't like the way it felt. Tried an officers' model 45 - she couldn't work the slide. Then a S&W Target Masterpiece (K38?). It was too heavy. She tried a 38 snubby I retrieved from storage, and never looked back. Qualified for her HCP with it. She did, eventually, allow me to put lasergrips on it.

Snubbies have been a top choice for a long, long time.

And she tried many different systems before making her decision. More importantly, you didn't just throw the snub in her lap and say "Here's the solution. Good Luck."

[The Average Joe]

Ahem....get off the juice, man.

[Punisher84]

I agree with Canyn. One of the most common questions I ask new shooters looking for a carry gun or even home defense gun is how often they intend to practice.

Alot of people just want the security and peace of mind of owning a firearm. They do not want to shoot IDPA, take advanced classes, or become "gun people." For these people a revolver is just fine. It's simple to clean and operate.

Plus, teaching someone to shoot a DA revolver is alot easier than teaching someone how to clear a jam or operate a semi-auto reliably if they aren't going to devote much time to train. A DA trigger pull is easy to overcome by doing hand exercises and strengthening the grip and trigger finger.

Just my 2 pennies as well.

EDIT: I do also agree that just handing someone a 2" snubby as the end all be all is not the answer either.

[Guest truthsayer]

I agree with Canyn. One of the most common questions I ask new shooters looking for a carry gun or even home defense gun is how often they intend to practice.

Alot of people just want the security and peace of mind of owning a firearm. They do not want to shoot IDPA, take advanced classes, or become "gun people." For these people a revolver is just fine. It's simple to clean and operate.

Plus, teaching someone to shoot a DA revolver is alot easier than teaching someone how to clear a jam or operate a semi-auto reliably if they aren't going to devote much time to train. A DA trigger pull is easy to overcome by doing hand exercises and strengthening the grip and trigger finger.

Just my 2 pennies as well.

EDIT: I do also agree that just handing someone a 2" snubby as the end all be all is not the answer either.

If we're exercising so that we can operate a gun, why not exercise so that you can operate a better system? Better yet... since we're talking about malfunctions, why not bring up how catastrophic some revolver malfunctions are compared to those in a semi?

If I wasn't in the mood to spout off, I wouldn't have started this thread. Know that I count most of the posters in this thread as solid e-friends.

[I_Like_Pie]

If it truly is a new shooter...either one would be stupid. Start every shooter with a .22 rifle.

For a noobie/self defense perspective...I disagree with every one of these

------------------------------------------------------

The cons:

Difficult trigger pull

Short sight radius

Limited capacity

More training required to reload proficiently

Recoil

------------------------------------------------------

...Here is why

Difficult trigger pull - As in long travel or to heavy for people with weak hands? If you can't muster enough strength to pull the trigger...there is no way you can rack the slide on a semi. DA on most semi auto pistols is no different than a revolver. For a new shooter...a .5inch 4 pound glock trigger can be more of a liability.

Short sight radius - A 10" barrel is no more accurate than a 2" one. Your ability to see it is better, but at the ranges you shoot most pistols...practical accuracy is not affected. You could train a monkey to hit the Carry permit targets with a snubnose...it is that easy.

Limited capacity - If you need more than 5 or 6...you don't need a pistol.

More training required to reload proficiently - ??? Cylindrical bullet fits in hole. Pretty simple to me.

Recoil - Nobody said it had to be made of titanium. An SP101 is a snubnose and it weighs 10oz more than a Glock 17.

------------------------------------------------------

For an advanced shooter your comparison is valid simply because one will have mastery of anything they put in their hands.

For a beginning handgunner there is nothing simpler to fire, clean, load, store, and use in a practical manner. KISS principle applies 100%

Given just 60 seconds...there is not a single, english speaking person on the planet that I could not illustrate how to load, point, and fire a revolver to where at least one bullet hit a 5" circle at 10 feet.

Mastery is a different story, but we are not talking a bullseye shoot here.

Which would you rather a 75 year old grandmother use?

How about a person who only wants one gun in a house for self defense...will sit on a shelf for 20 years?

How about someone who really doesn't like guns, but needs one for a purse or pocket?

[Guest truthsayer]

Ahem....get off the juice, man.

All natural, bro.

[Guest truthsayer]

If it truly is a new shooter...either one would be stupid. Start every shooter with a .22 rifle.

I'm not sure about that. Blanket answers are bad, mmmmkay? I've started people off and known of countless more that were introduced to shooting with a .22 semi or SA/DA revolver.

For a noobie/self defense perspective...I disagree with every one of these

Sweet!

Difficult trigger pull - As in long travel or to heavy for people with weak hands? If you can't muster enough strength to pull the trigger...there is no way you can rack the slide on a semi. DA on most semi auto pistols is no different than a revolver. For a new shooter...a .5inch 4 pound glock trigger can be more of a liability.

Shenanigans, I say. Most people don't manipulate the slide properly. Keep it close to the body and do it quickly. If you can punch me in the arm, you can work a semi.

Short sight radius - A 10" barrel is no more accurate than a 2" one. Your ability to see it is better, but at the ranges you shoot most pistols...practical accuracy is not affected. You could train a monkey to hit the Carry permit targets with a snubnose...it is that easy.

Shenanigans. The longer the sight radius, the more accurate a shooter will be with it. Practical accuracy, perhaps. I will agree that a well trained monkey can pass the TN HCP test with a snubbie. I'm pretty sure I saw it happen.

Limited capacity - If you need more than 5 or 6...you don't need a pistol.

What if a pistol is all you have? Is there a good reason to limit your tactical options in such a way?

More training required to reload proficiently - ??? Cylindrical bullet fits in hole. Pretty simple to me.

Shenanigans. Reductionist and illogical. If proficiency is defined by that, we're all Marksmen and Operators.

Recoil - Nobody said it had to be made of titanium. An SP101 is a snubnose and it weighs 10oz more than a Glock 17.

This is my judgment and perception, but .38s out of most snubbies are as bad as a .40 out of a G27.

For an advanced shooter your comparison is valid simply because one will have mastery of anything they put in their hands.

For a beginning handgunner there is nothing simpler to fire, clean, load, store, and use in a practical manner. KISS principle applies 100%

Given just 60 seconds...there is not a single, english speaking person on the planet that I could not illustrate how to load, point, and fire a revolver to where at least one bullet hit a 5" circle at 10 feet.

Mastery is a different story, but we are not talking a bullseye shoot here.

Which would you rather a 75 year old grandmother use?

How about a person who only wants one gun in a house for self defense...will sit on a shelf for 20 years?

How about someone who really doesn't like guns, but needs one for a purse or pocket?

I'm trying to talk about new shooters in general being given blanket recommendations, not everyone's grandmother or simple-minded, weak friends. Besides, keeping it simple may not save their life.

[I_Like_Pie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by I_Like_Pie

If it truly is a new shooter...either one would be stupid. Start every shooter with a .22 rifle.

I'm not sure about that. Blanket answers are bad, mmmmkay? I've started people off and known of countless more that were introduced to shooting with a .22 semi or SA/DA revolver.

Generalist/Blanket answers work...specific/answers offer different route to same destination. If you can't learn a .22 Rifle then you have no business with a gun. The people you taught did fine, but you could have done it another way using a .22 rifle. There are very few situations that have only right and wrong as a result.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I_Like_Pie

For a noobie/self defense perspective...I disagree with every one of these

Sweet!

Something to toil over nothing about...Huh?

Quote:

Difficult trigger pull - As in long travel or to heavy for people with weak hands? If you can't muster enough strength to pull the trigger...there is no way you can rack the slide on a semi. DA on most semi auto pistols is no different than a revolver. For a new shooter...a .5inch 4 pound glock trigger can be more of a liability.

Shenanigans, I say. Most people don't manipulate the slide properly. Keep it close to the body and do it quickly. If you can punch me in the arm, you can work a semi.

Your hands are not as buttery smooth and soft as mine. The first half of my life was spent as the resident fluffer at a cow farm...I had lotion on my hands 8 hours a day.

Quote:

Short sight radius - A 10" barrel is no more accurate than a 2" one. Your ability to see it is better, but at the ranges you shoot most pistols...practical accuracy is not affected. You could train a monkey to hit the Carry permit targets with a snubnose...it is that easy.

Shenanigans. The longer the sight radius, the more accurate a shooter will be with it. Practical accuracy, perhaps. I will agree that a well trained monkey can pass the TN HCP test with a snubbie. I'm pretty sure I saw it happen.

Depends on your eyes and your nerves. From 0-10 yards it is irrelevant. You could completely shave off the sights and it would still be capable of use as a self defense gun. Willing to bet even then I could shoot it better than some of the clowns at my local range.

Quote:

Limited capacity - If you need more than 5 or 6...you don't need a pistol.

What if a pistol is all you have? Is there a good reason to limit your tactical options in such a way?

Are we talking about a person learning to shoot with a snubby or seeing how much ammo we can carry? Sure...it is perfectly valid to expect 5 or 6 rounds to be sufficient enough to stop an intruder or protect oneself. If 6 isn't enough then how could one expect 12 to work?

Quote:

More training required to reload proficiently - ??? Cylindrical bullet fits in hole. Pretty simple to me.

Shenanigans. Reductionist and illogical. If proficiency is defined by that, we're all Marksmen and Operators.

Loading a gun has nothing to do with marksmanship. If you can put 5 cartridges in 5 holes...then yes...you are proficient in loading a gun. It really is that simple. Unless you happen to know of some other way to reload a revolver. Note: I do not suggest starting a new shooter on a Black Powder Revolver.

Quote:

Recoil - Nobody said it had to be made of titanium. An SP101 is a snubnose and it weighs 10oz more than a Glock 17.

This is my judgment and perception, but .38s out of most snubbies are as bad as a .40 out of a G27.

Isn't that the type of comparison we are talking about...if they are no worse then what is the problem? Actually you are wrong. A .40 out of a G27 (lighter gun + heavier load) does, in fact, have considerable more recoil energy than all but one or two really expensive .38 specials. As you mentioned this is a totally subjective thing.

Quote:

For an advanced shooter your comparison is valid simply because one will have mastery of anything they put in their hands.

For a beginning handgunner there is nothing simpler to fire, clean, load, store, and use in a practical manner. KISS principle applies 100%

Given just 60 seconds...there is not a single, english speaking person on the planet that I could not illustrate how to load, point, and fire a revolver to where at least one bullet hit a 5" circle at 10 feet.

Mastery is a different story, but we are not talking a bullseye shoot here.

Which would you rather a 75 year old grandmother use?

How about a person who only wants one gun in a house for self defense...will sit on a shelf for 20 years?

How about someone who really doesn't like guns, but needs one for a purse or pocket?

I'm trying to talk about new shooters in general being given blanket recommendations, not everyone's grandmother or simple-minded, weak friends. Besides, keeping it simple may not save their life.

Besides, keeping it simple may not save their life?

If that is the case...then semantics about firearm choice is the least of their worries.

[I_Like_Pie]

All natural, bro.

You look better in the suit & tie.

/Sorry man...couldn't resist

All fun and games. I 100% understand your point

[The Average Joe]

[Guest truthsayer]

At this point, we're only arguing semantics and word choice anyway. There's no refutation, only an opportunity to point out fallacy in whatever form it can be found or fabricated. I'm guilty of it. Most things end up that way, so I'm not upset.

Yes, I was looking for something to toil over today and that was on my mind. Idle hands and whatnot.....

As an addendum, you're not the only one to tell me I look better clothed.

[Guest truthsayer]

Glad to see we're all being adults. Just for that,

[Mark@Sea]

Six for sure.

[Guest Dr. Pepper]

I agree with Truthsayer. It IS annoying that people have a blanket answer for new shooters, ESPECIALLY for new female shooters. As though all women are going to limp-wrist or be unable to rack the slide. When I was thinking about buying a gun, several people told me (including the doofuses at the gun shop -- I never go to that gun shop anymore) that a .38 special was the way to go. When I finally got around to shooting a .38 snubbie (years later), it ranked at the bottom of my list of favorite guns for a million reasons.

As for racking the slide, this is more about determination and familiarity with the gun. If a person is afraid of the gun, how successful will their attempts to rack the slide be if they're not strong like all you buff men?

In any case, all women should carry a .45 semi-auto.