Glock 19 Holster Discussions

[GlockSpock]

So, first let me state that for about 5 years I've been carrying a Glock 19 with Surefire X300A attached in a Raven Concealment Phantom LC IWB holster. 9/10 times, I would tell you that the holster was comfortable. I carry about 3 O'Clock to 5 O'Clock. However, I recently decided to switch things up so I'm selling the holster on Ebay, already sold the Surefire. I purchased a Streamlight TLR-7 and a Squared Away Customers "Zulu" holster. I have not yet received it.

Since it was ready to ship, I recently purchased a DSG Holster: https://dsgarms.com/glock-19-23-32-with-tlr-7-8-iwb-holster-dsg11120022

I carried with it for the first real time yesterday. In my opinion, it left so much to be desired. Maybe it is just me, but it was more uncomfortable than the much larger Raven I used to carry with. I suspect it is because a bit of extra skin (yeah...I'll put it that way) causes the top of the gun to tilt outward and then then muzzle end of the gun/holster package gets pushed directly into my hip. I think the Raven was more comfortable because the larger, "flatter" size of the holster prevented the top of the holster from "tilting out", thus preventing a "pressure point" near the muzzle. Also, with the Raven, the "lines" of the gun were more broken, with the DSG the general shape of the gun (slide and frame) are pretty well preserved, and thus creating a shape of "a gun" instead of "a flat gun" against my body.

This isn't the first time I have ever noticed this. I tried a Raven Concealment Vanguard one time. All it does is safely cover the trigger and leaves the frame, slide exposed. I had the exact same issues with this.

Now, I am really hoping to like the Squared Away Customs holster I purchased. If nothing else, the fit and finish should be much better than the DSR holster. I purchased it with the "Soft Loops", as in my opinion a/the clips found on a lot of holsters seem to let things "shift around" too much. I have always carried with the soft loops and prefer them immensely.

I am severely disappointed that Raven discontinued their Phantom/Phantom LC line. In my opinion, they were some of the best holsters on the market, period. I spent a bit of time last night reading a thread on Arfcom about the holsters and the owner of Raven Concealment kept chiming in. Ultimately, it seems they moved away from customer kydex and into injection molded holsters to "increase lead times", especially for "large government contracts". That's all marketing speak for "reducing costs and maximizing profits" in case you couldn't tell. They heavily, heavily push their "Perun" holster now. I'm not saying it isn't a nice holster, but it is nowhere near a "better holster than the Phantom in every way" that the owner seems to want to promote. For starters, to my knowledge, the Perun cannot be converted to IWB. 

I'll admit, simply because it is Raven and they do have a history of doing things well, I may give the Perun a try. I have truly never tried to conceal with an OWB holster. I imagine it'd be very easy in winter. Summer? Maybe, maybe not. I imagine it is more comfortable most of the time than IWB. But I feel like, in most cases, printing would be exponentially higher.

I feel like I am now holster-less. I've looked at quite a few customer kydex manufacturers, some of them come close but it doesn't seem any of them create a holster than is nearly an exact match to the Phantom LC. If I'm not head over heals regarding the Squared Away Zulu, I may send photos of the Phantom LC to a few various kydex holster makers and ask them how close to that they could get.

I also have in mind to perhaps try leather again (I started carrying with a "High Noon Holsters" with my CZ P-01. That was...6 years ago! Ultimately, the leather was of course pretty comfortable. I do prefer a lot of what kydex has to offer, but maybe leather is where I should go now.

I am also open to one of the hybrid holsters such as Comp-Tac, etc. I have never been super crazy about the idea of them but I might be surprised.

[GlockSpock]

Checked with "High Noon Holsters". They declined to make anything for my combo.

[Jamie Jackson]

As it relates to the pivot point you mentioned, I've found carrying a G 19 in a G 17 holster to have worked very well for me. If the holster is correctly designed and executed (i.e. appropriate covering of the trigger guard and appropriate retention capabilities), the small amount of extra length mitigates the "tilting" issue you describe.

I've found this with leather holsters (The Leather Arsenal Elmer McEvoy and Kramer horsehide) and Kydex holsters such as my current Dale Fricke Seraphrim and a Dark Star Gear that has a bit of extra length for my S&W Shield.

I use an item called an Extra Girth Adapter for the Seraphrin and my Fricke Archangel. It's a foam wedge attached to the inside base of the holster that also helps pivot the top of the gun into the wearer's side and aides in concealing the grip. I've made my own devices such as this for some time now out of foam. But I do carry appendix fwiw.

I've never used a hybrid holster before, but have read several accounts from trusted people like Greg Ellifritz, mentioning the potential for the leather portion to weaken over time and wear and create the setting for an unintentional discharge when reholstering the handgun. Even though we should make certain our holsters are clear of obstructions when reholstering, bunched up weakened leather that could engage the trigger is not something most of us think of.

 

Best of luck in your search.

[MacGyver]

Man, there were a ton of companies that straight up copied the Phantom back in the day.  

I guess karma combined with bad business planning caught up to them all?

[GlockSpock]

4 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Man, there were a ton of companies that straight up copied the Phantom back in the day.  

I guess karma combined with bad business planning caught up to them all?

Yep. And although there are some that come close, it seems nobody is quite "there". At least I haven't found it yet.

So, Raven went from being my favorite holster manufacturer to just like any of the other "regular" holsters. Too bad.

[peejman]

Talk to some of the leather guys here. You can get exactly what you want. 

For me, OWB is way more comfortable that IWB. I only IWB carry when I'm particularly concerned with concealment.  That said, my Crossbreed supertuck is the most comfortable medium sized gun IWB holster I've tried. It spreads out the load of a bigger gun really well. 

[TGO David]

You know, Mark and Cory (Squared Away Customs) will build just about anything so long as it's a combination they can reproduce in their shop or the firearm's owner is willing to ship items to them.

 

[GlockSpock]

10 hours ago, TGO David said:

You know, Mark and Cory (Squared Away Customs) will build just about anything so long as it's a combination they can reproduce in their shop or the firearm's owner is willing to ship items to them.

 

I used their contact form to inquire about doing exactly that. I hope they say they've done it before and can easily do it upon request.

[GlockSpock]

Doesn't look good:

I replied, encouraging him that I think he's closer than he gives himself credit for. I think I'll wait until I get the Zulu. Perhaps I love it. But it's hard to break away from something you've been doing for 4+ years. 

[cch2a]

On 9/10/2018 at 7:00 PM, GlockSpock said:

Yep. And although there are some that come close, it seems nobody is quite "there". At least I haven't found it yet.

So, Raven went from being my favorite holster manufacturer to just like any of the other "regular" holsters. Too bad.

I kinda feel the same way. Loved my Phantom LC holsters and now can't find one that does both IWB and OWB well. I run thier Morrigan holster for my 19 with XC1 attached and it's ok but you can't convert it to OWB and it doesn't quite hug your body like the Phantom does. Add in I'm left handed and holster shopping is horrible. Bravo Concealment made a pretty good Phantom copy but last I checked they stopped custom orders and discontinued left hand models to cut costs.

[TGO David]

On 9/11/2018 at 9:17 AM, GlockSpock said:

Doesn't look good:

I replied, encouraging him that I think he's closer than he gives himself credit for. I think I'll wait until I get the Zulu. Perhaps I love it. But it's hard to break away from something you've been doing for 4+ years. 

I spoke with Mark about this the other night and what he told you is accurate and is going to be final on it.  Their vacuum molding process doesn't let them do a 50/50 mold like Raven.  Mark also prefers NOT to make exact copies of competitor products, feeling it is unethical to do so.

I hope you like the Zulu but I can tell you pretty confidently that you're not going to get them to make a Raven copy.

 

[GlockSpock]

1 hour ago, TGO David said:

I spoke with Mark about this the other night and what he told you is accurate and is going to be final on it.  Their vacuum molding process doesn't let them do a 50/50 mold like Raven.  Mark also prefers NOT to make exact copies of competitor products, feeling it is unethical to do so.

I hope you like the Zulu but I can tell you pretty confidently that you're not going to get them to make a Raven copy.

 

Yeah, that's the vibe I got. Oh well. Just between you and me and everyone else, in my opinion it doesn't have anything to do with 50/50 or 80/20 like foam vs vacuum presents, but rather the general shape of the holster and where you put grommet holes. I'll admit it isn't "my industry", but I've been watching some YouTube videos on holster design/manufacture. I feel like what I want could easily be done with a vacuum press, but I think it would require the model sides to be placed several inches further apart so when it is folded it will leave more "flat" kydex on each side. Then you'd simply have to dremel both sides of the holster so there is no "fold" . Install grommets on both sides spaced for IWB and OWB hardware. Done. The "20%" side would be towards the body, the "80%" of course away.

[GlockSpock]

But I respect his desire to not want to copy other manufactures, I'm just disappointed that there thus isn't anyone that really makes that holster anymore. Oh well, things change. I'm getting more used to the DSG one I have, which seems like a lower quality version of what I'm getting from Squared Away.

[MacGyver]

Just now, GlockSpock said:

Yeah, that's the vibe I got. Oh well. Just between you and me and everyone else, in my opinion it doesn't have anything to do with 50/50 or 80/20 like foam vs vacuum presents, but rather the general shape of the holster and where you put grommet holes. I'll admit it isn't "my industry", but I've been watching some YouTube videos on holster design/manufacture. I feel like what I want could easily be done with a vacuum press, but I think it would require the model sides to be placed several inches further apart so when it is folded it will leave more "flat" kydex on each side. Then you'd simply have to dremel both sides of the holster so there is no "fold" . Install grommets on both sides spaced for IWB and OWB hardware. Done. The "20%" side would be towards the body, the "80%" of course away.

You know, with a couple of pieces of plywood, a closed cell foam sleeping pad, and a little bit of weight, you can make just about anything you want.

The learning curve isn't steep.  Materials are pretty cheap - so you can screw up a lot and iterate through several holsters before you've accrued the cost of one commercial holster.

It's not for everyone - but I'm certain there are people on this board who would tell you that if they can do it, so can you.

[GlockSpock]

16 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

You know, with a couple of pieces of plywood, a closed cell foam sleeping pad, and a little bit of weight, you can make just about anything you want.

The learning curve isn't steep.  Materials are pretty cheap - so you can screw up a lot and iterate through several holsters before you've accrued the cost of one commercial holster.

It's not for everyone - but I'm certain there are people on this board who would tell you that if they can do it, so can you.

Actually, a coworker has everything he needs as he tried getting into the holster business but never really did. I may very well try to do exactly that. We were talking about it this morning at work actually, I think he just wants everything "gone" and I've got the space for it. He said it "gone" would make his wife very happy.

[TGO David]

2 hours ago, GlockSpock said:

Yeah, that's the vibe I got. Oh well. Just between you and me and everyone else, in my opinion it doesn't have anything to do with 50/50 or 80/20 like foam vs vacuum presents, but rather the general shape of the holster and where you put grommet holes. I'll admit it isn't "my industry", but I've been watching some YouTube videos on holster design/manufacture. I feel like what I want could easily be done with a vacuum press, but I think it would require the model sides to be placed several inches further apart so when it is folded it will leave more "flat" kydex on each side. Then you'd simply have to dremel both sides of the holster so there is no "fold" . Install grommets on both sides spaced for IWB and OWB hardware. Done. The "20%" side would be towards the body, the "80%" of course away.

Their molds are CNC machined aluminum plate.  There's no adjusting those further apart for what you're after, dude.

 

[GlockSpock]

4 hours ago, TGO David said:

Their molds are CNC machined aluminum plate.  There's no adjusting those further apart for what you're after, dude.

 

Oh, I know that. I'm just saying **if** they were further apart, it would be possible. I'm merely talking about holsters, no necessarily Squared Away. Like I said, in all of this I've watched quite a few YouTube videos of both foam pressing and vacuum. I guess ultimately my point was simply that I personally do not see anything inherently unique to the vacuum process that would exclusively prevent a holster similar to that as a Raven Phantom.

I'm also just sad to see that what I perceive to be the "custom holster market" going away or morphing into the "mast produced holster market". For example, what does vacuum pressing offer me as the consumer? I can literally think of none. So they say the Phantom LC that I loved dearly was foam pressed? It held the gun snugly, and offer a nice "click" both auditory as well as physical. It held the gun 100% and there was never a single time that it nearly "came out" due to not enough retention. Personally, I care not whether the kydex hugs ever nook and cranny in a gun. Conversely, I believe the flatter/smoother it is (at least the side touching your body), the more comfortable. So the magic is finding the right level of smoothness coupled with the appropriate level or grip/retention to the firearm.

Vacuum pressing, on the other hand, in my opinion, appears to drastically decrease production time. That is my perceived takeaway, maybe I'm wrong. The feeling I'm getting though is that a lot of manufacturers are going away from "custom" and straight to mass production. I respect that. To be able to cut costs in the form of reducing labor hours while at the same time increasing production, that seems like a profitable decision in my observation.

Raven Concealment is a perfect example of this. They used to, hands down, be my favorite manufacturer. I recommended them to everyone I know that carries. However, those people preferred their "Alien Gear Holsters" because they were $30 and a custom Raven Phantom or Phantom LC was $100+ after you bought appropriate hardware, etc. Now, Raven has basically abandoned the "custom" market in every shape and form. They make an injection molded OWB holster, certain IWB holsters, and 99% of what they make is for Glocks. It may be 100%, I'm not sure. In other words, Raven Concealment produces zero products that I am even remotely interested in. I as much told them that directly and told them I was sad to lose them as my favorite holster manufacturer. But, in their own words, they want to be able to "fulfill large government contracts", and I respect that.

In the end these companies are only in business to make money. Well I understand that 100%. I don't fault any of them for making or not making anything specific. Hey, I really do hope I like the Zulu. The DSG listed in an above post is ok. It isn't perfect. In fact, in my opinion, it isn't even safe (re-holstering seems less than optimal, even potentially dangerous). But it carries ok. Hopefully, I will like the Zulu much, much more. I sincerely mean that. I'm open to change. That doesn't mean I always like it, but I'll try. If it doesn't suite me as well as I hope, then I'll try making something myself.

 

[TGO David]

I just want to make a few public statements about this so that anyone else who has any misconceptions about things will know what the truth of it is:

 

1.  I pay for my holsters from SAC the same as anyone else does.  I don't get them for free, and Mark will back me up on that.  He has told me before to stop spending my money on holsters, but I've told him that I would rather it be this way.  So, my recommendation of SAC gear is not bought or paid for.  It is based on my positive experiences with them as a customer.

I also wait the normal wait time when I order.  Case in point, my last order was placed the last week of June and I received it yesterday.  There is no preferential treatment there despite he and I being friends.

 

2.  There is not a business relationship for me to protect with Mark.  He doesn't pay Shooters Nation for any advertising.  We plug his shop for him because I want to help him out and because I can't pay him to be my co-host on the podcast.  Shooters Nation, for the past six months and 30 episodes, has brought in zero dollars from anyone.  The money involved in that podcast flows one way and one way only, at present.  Out of my bank account.

That's not a complaint and I am glad to do it.  I enjoy what Mark and I are building with the podcast and get Thank You emails daily from listeners who found it useful and relevant.  But I don't want anyone to think, "Oh, David protects SAC because there's money involved."

If you think that, you're wrong.  Period.

 

3.  Mark's a big boy and can defend himself, but I'll say this:  From getting to know him over the past 6-months, he is obsessed with quality and with customer service.  If he says he can't do something for someone, he's legitimately considered it from every angle that he can and he has a good reason for saying "No."

To replicate the RCS Phantom holster, they would have to use a completely different process for Kydex molding (i.e. foam pressing) than what they currently use (i.e. vacuum forming).  They are set up the way they are to produce holsters as quickly as they can and keep customers happy.  The sheer number of product SKUs that they have now when you consider right hand, left hand, multiple colors, multiple attachment options, with weapon light, without weapon light, with RMR, without RMR, inside the waistband, outside the waistband, and on and on and on and on... well you get the idea... is already hard for them to keep up with.

And, if the guy just feels it's not ethical to 100% copy a competitor product because he hates it when people 100% copy a product of his own design, can you really blame him?

 

My advice:  Capitalism is wonderful.  If you see a niche that isn't being served and YOU want to dive into it, buy the gear, hang a shingle and go into business... DO IT.

 

 

[mikegideon]

If you like the Phantom, like me, these are really close. I own Phantoms for my G19 and G43, and own a Vedder Lightdraw for my G30S. The main difference is the adjustable retention on the vedder...

https://www.vedderholsters.com/lightdraw/

[MacGyver]

I like how the OWB "wings" spread out a little bit on the Vedder.

[GlockSpock]

25 minutes ago, mikegideon said:

If you like the Phantom, like me, these are really close. I own Phantoms for my G19 and G43, and own a Vedder Lightdraw for my G30S. The main difference is the adjustable retention on the vedder...

https://www.vedderholsters.com/lightdraw/

Nice! That's a good looking holster, but unless they'll do custom configurations it seems they don't offer it with a TLR-7 option. It seems OWB only, but perhaps could be adapted to IWB. Thanks for this, I always enjoy discovering new holster manufacturers I haven't heard of.

13 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I like how the OWB "wings" spread out a little bit on the Vedder.

I think that's something I loved about the Raven so much. OWB or IWB, the clips or loops were spread far enough apart to not only spread out the weight but also prevent the holster from tilting. The DSG that I am currently using, since it only has one of those single wider clips, can slightly rotate on the same plane that your belt is on. It isn't extreme, but it is there. The Raven/similar, on draw, is very stable. I'm hoping that the Zulu with two loops will somewhat address that.

[mikegideon]

27 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I like how the OWB "wings" spread out a little bit on the Vedder.

I have the Phantom style clips. Mine Phantom and Vedder are virtually identical. The finish on the Raven is slightly better. I believe Raven offered those kind of wings as an option too

[mikegideon]

I’ll bet they wil do a TLR 7

 

[GlockSpock]

Just now, mikegideon said:

I’ll bet they wil do a TLR 7

 

That is...indeed...a copy.

As @MacGyver hinted above, there used to be a bunch of people that copied Raven to an extent with this style holster. It seems the majority of them have gone away. Originally, I would have only bought Raven, since I like giving credit where credit is due (I believe Raven was probably the original manufacturer of a holster this style, or at least the one that brought it mainstream). However, since Raven no longer makes this style, I can in better conscience buy it from a "copycat".

Since the hole spacing looks exactly the same, I'd suppose the offset wings and IWB loops would still work. Although, unless it is necessary, I'd as well let/request that they leave the retention adjustment screw off.

[GlockSpock]

Just emailed Vedder to see what they'd say about converting one of those to IWB with the appropriate hardware along with whether or not they'd do a Glock w/ TLR-7 attached.