Officer entering wrong apartment, killing occupant

[MacGyver]

I don't know that the fact that she was a police officer - or the fact that he was black and she was white ought to really matter here.  While they may or may not have been relevant in the shoot, there's really only one thing that matters.

She had a gun. There's a guy that's dead from a bullet fired from her gun. She's ultimately responsible for that bullet.

There should be an investigation. And the results should likely be made public for transparency's sake. Regardless of what happens in this case, she'll go to sleep every night for the rest of her life knowing that there was an innocent life there and she took it.

At least two families were permanently altered this weekend.

My prayers are with them all - for there is no peace right now for anyone.

[E4 No More]

37 minutes ago, monkeylizard said:

I don't think it was about her key opening his apartment. A report I read stated she was fumbling with the lock (because her key wouldn't open the lock) and he opened the door from the inside. That's when she shot him.

That's F'd up in-and-of itself. There had to be drugs or alcohol involved. I recognize my neighbors immediately, and they live 200 feet away from me.

[DaveTN]

48 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I don't know that the fact that she was a police officer - or the fact that he was black and she was white ought to really matter here.  While they may or may not have been relevant in the shoot, there's really only one thing that matters.

She had a gun. There's a guy that's dead from a bullet fired from her gun. She's ultimately responsible for that bullet.

There should be an investigation. And the results should likely be made public for transparency's sake. Regardless of what happens in this case, she'll go to sleep every night for the rest of her life knowing that there was an innocent life there and she took it.

At least two families were permanently altered this weekend.

My prayers are with them all - for there is no peace right now for anyone.

Other than the cop haters, the ones pushing the cop angle is the lawyers; no cop, no big payday. That’s terrible, but that’s already happening. I suspect that’s also why the Dallas PD Chief was quick to say this was not an Officer involved shooting.

While the Officer has been charged with Manslaughter the DA has said a Grand Jury will hear the case and decide the charge.

There was no body cam. Those are left at the PD at the end of the shift.

This is a case where I would guess the Police Officer will be held to a higher standard than a citizen. If a female with a carry permit had shot someone opening what she thought was her door; this would be a very different public opinion. And there should be a difference. This man opened his door and was face to face with a Police Officer in uniform (from what we have been told). She should have handled that the same way she would have coming face to face with any burglar anywhere. I think it will be awhile before we hear why she thought she needed to shoot him. But without a witness she is the only one to say what happened.

[peejman]

39 minutes ago, SWJewellTN said:

That's F'd up in-and-of itself. There had to be drugs or alcohol involved. I recognize my neighbors immediately, and they live 200 feet away from me.

Have you ever lived in a big apartment complex?  People come and go all the time. It's almost impossible to know everyone, especially people on other floors when you basically only sleep there. 

[Omega]

19 minutes ago, peejman said:

Have you ever lived in a big apartment complex?  People come and go all the time. It's almost impossible to know everyone, especially people on other floors when you basically only sleep there. 

I can see her not knowing him, and those entrances look identical:

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/dallas/article218068660.html

And in the way this is written, I can see how it could have happened that way.  She, IMHO, is still liable, but I can see how anyone could have made the same mistake. 

 https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/dallas/article218154635.html

[Erik88]

28 minutes ago, Omega said:

I can see her not knowing him, and those entrances look identical:

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/dallas/article218068660.html

And in the way this is written, I can see how it could have happened that way.  She, IMHO, is still liable, but I can see how anyone could have made the same mistake. 

 https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/dallas/article218154635.html

Especially after a 15 hour shift. 

[gregintenn]

28 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Especially after a 15 hour shift. 

Would I end up at the wrong door in an apartment complex? Not unlikely.

Would I shoot the person on the other side of the door? I sure hope not!

[Wingshooter]

42 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Especially after a 15 hour shift. 

Yeah, fatigue can really impair judgement and reasoning. We study fatigue a lot in aviation. It can have the same effects on the mind as being intoxicated. Even affect vision and perception. Still no excuse and even hard to comprehend, but sounds like she was worn out and caught off guard. Dazed and confused. 

I still wonder if there’s more to the story though... homeowner had a weapon? (Why wouldn’t he... she was entering his home), etc

What a terrible loss of life and situation

Edited September 10, 2018 by Wingshooter

[Wingshooter]

1 minute ago, Wingshooter said:

Yeah, fatigue can really impair judgement and reasoning. We study fatigue a lot in aviation. It can have the same effects on the mind as being intoxicated. Even affect vision and perception. Still no excuse and even hard to comprehend, but sounds like she was worn out and caught off guard. Dazed and confused. 

I still wonder if there’s more to the story though... homeowner had a weapon? (Why wouldn’t he... she was entering his home), etc

What a terrible loss of life and situation

 

[E4 No More]

14 hours ago, peejman said:

Have you ever lived in a big apartment complex?  People come and go all the time. It's almost impossible to know everyone, especially people on other floors when you basically only sleep there. 

Yes, I have. In this case, (according to the arrest affidavit), she was on the wrong floor. That I can understand, but every apartment complex that I've ever seen has the apartment number plastered on the door. If I saw the door was ajar the first thing I'd do is check the apartment number. On the other hand I might not after working a 16 hour shift.

[E4 No More]

13 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Would I end up at the wrong door in an apartment complex? Not unlikely.

Would I shoot the person on the other side of the door? I sure hope not!

It would really depend on how many 16 hour shifts you worked. When I was a "part-time" police officer I went through a 10 month period where I was working 48 to 56 hours per week at the PD on top of the 40 hours at my "regular" job. I have no doubt that had an effect on my decision making. 

[KahrMan]

A little more info from the arrest warrant:

Quote

Guyger just had ended a 15-hour shift Thursday when she returned in uniform to the South Side Flats apartment complex. She parked on the fourth floor, instead of the third, where she lived, according to the affidavit filed for the officer’s arrest warrant, possibly suggesting that she was confused or disoriented.

 

When she put her key in the apartment door that was unlocked and slightly ajar, it opened. Inside, the lights were off. Then she saw a figure in the darkness, the affidavit said.

The officer concluded that her apartment was being burglarized and gave verbal commands to the figure, who allegedly ignored them. She then drew her weapon and fired twice, the affidavit said.

When she turned on the lights, she realized she was in the wrong unit, according to the affidavit, which appeared to be based almost entirely upon the officer’s account.

 

[Erik88]

I must be on more folks ignore list than I realized. People keep posting the same things I've already shared. 

[KahrMan]

6 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I must be on more folks ignore list than I realized. People keep posting the same things I've already shared. 

I did say some additional info...yours did not mention that she supposedly gave verbal commands that were ignored just that she saw the figure and shot him.

[bersaguy]

I am beginning to see a pattern of the same story coming together. The officer came home after a long shift at work. Not paying attention she parked on the 4th floor garage when she normally parks on the 3rd floor. That was her first error. With apartments all looking the same nothing would have jumped right out to her thinking that she was not on the correct floor after a long hard shift. When she reached what she thought was her apartment and attempted to insert the prong key device into the door before going it it pushed the door open. This is where things begin to go bad. Instead of backing away from the apartment and calling for back up with would be or should be manditory she entered a dark apartment alone and removed her gun from it's holster when she saw a silhouette moving around in the dark. (Officers statement) She gave verbal commands that she was a police officer and got no reply. Saw movement and fire 2 rounds striking the man with 1 of them. Turning on the light she realized she was not in her apartment and called for 911 emergency and  said shots fired.

Now there are a couple things to consider from this so far. The man was in a dark apartment with an unlocked door? How many people enter their dark apartment don't turn on a light first thing and don't close and lock the door behind them this day in time? I don't know if that will ever be explained. Why when the officer Identified herself as a police officer did the man not immediately respond back with anything to the officer? She said that she gave several verbal commands and got no response. Why did he not answer back?? A reply back would have saved his life.  That is another question that will probably never be answered. The hall lights where on so there is little doubt he could not see her silhouette and identify that she was infact an officer in uniform. That is another question that will probably never get an answer.

There are many questions that will never be answered and because of a few bad decisions on both people involved a man lost his life. The officer for not being more alert to her surroundings was the first mistake and from then on the bad decisions from both just snowballed.I think the grand jury will come up with the right decision in the end................JMHO

[E4 No More]

45 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

I am beginning to see a pattern of the same story coming together. The officer came home after a long shift at work. Not paying attention she parked on the 4th floor garage when she normally parks on the 3rd floor. That was her first error. With apartments all looking the same nothing would have jumped right out to her thinking that she was not on the correct floor after a long hard shift. When she reached what she thought was her apartment and attempted to insert the prong key device into the door before going it it pushed the door open. This is where things begin to go bad. Instead of backing away from the apartment and calling for back up with would be or should be manditory she entered a dark apartment alone and removed her gun from it's holster when she saw a silhouette moving around in the dark. (Officers statement) She gave verbal commands that she was a police officer and got no reply. Saw movement and fire 2 rounds striking the man with 1 of them. Turning on the light she realized she was not in her apartment and called for 911 emergency and  said shots fired.

Now there are a couple things to consider from this so far. The man was in a dark apartment with an unlocked door? How many people enter their dark apartment don't turn on a light first thing and don't close and lock the door behind them this day in time? I don't know if that will ever be explained. Why when the officer Identified herself as a police officer did the man not immediately respond back with anything to the officer? She said that she gave several verbal commands and got no response. Why did he not answer back?? A reply back would have saved his life.  That is another question that will probably never be answered. The hall lights where on so there is little doubt he could not see her silhouette and identify that she was infact an officer in uniform. That is another question that will probably never get an answer.

There are many questions that will never be answered and because of a few bad decisions on both people involved a man lost his life. The officer for not being more alert to her surroundings was the first mistake and from then on the bad decisions from both just snowballed.I think the grand jury will come up with the right decision in the end................JMHO

It would take either a poorly trained, or extremely dumb, police officer to stand silhouetted by the hallway light in the doorway. That makes you a target. It's also dumb to not have a back-up in a situation like this particularly when you know someone's there. Now being off duty she may not have a radio, but it's a good bet she had a cell phone. 

[bersaguy]

3 minutes ago, SWJewellTN said:

It would take either a poorly trained, or extremely dumb, police officer to stand silhouetted by the hallway light in the doorway. That makes you a target. It's also dumb to not have a back-up in a situation like this particularly when you know someone's there. Now being off duty she may not have a radio, but it's a good bet she had a cell phone. 

I agree with you on the dumb part for standing lit up in hall light silhouette. My move would have been to back out of the door way and call for back up. She did have a cell phone because she called 911 to get the victum help. They were up high enough that if the guy was a burglar he was not going anywhere so wait for back up..........JMHO

[gregintenn]

You can make excuses forever, but it seems like murder to me.

[bersaguy]

6 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

You can make excuses forever, but it seems like murder to me.

I'm not making any excuses for her actions. The Grand Jury will charge her accordingly for sure based on the evidence which is going to be hard to explain most of it but there is no doubt she will be charged with something and it won't be good regardless of what it is ...........JMHO

Edited September 11, 2018 by bersaguy

[gregintenn]

4 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

I'm not making any excuses for her actions. The Grand Jury will charge her accordingly for sure based on the evidence which is going to be hard to explain most of it but there is no doubt she will be charged with something and it won't be good regardless of what it is ...........JMHO

My post wasn't really aimed at you, Doug.

[MacGyver]

I will not be a bit surprised if a Grand Jury does a No Bill on this.  It sucks - but there's a lot about this that is simply tragic.  

When it comes down to it, the contributing factors here are bad policy and bad training - coupled with a stressful situation. Plenty of people would probably respond in a similar way. Hopefully it wouldn't beup to the point of pulling the trigger - but it could certainly happen.

A 15-hour shift is ridiculous.  People make bad decisions when they're exhausted.  The data shows that impairment from exhaustion can be just as bad as impairment from drugs or alcohol. Add in a stress event, and you're asking for bad stuff to happen.

I came out of my office the other day convinced for about 3 minutes that someone had stolen my truck.  It was 0930, and I was confused and angry. I didn't realize that our new parking deck with two entrances has one that's a half floor higher than the other entrance.  From the street level they look the same.  I get it that she parked in the wrong place and was confused.  But, how did her long shift (or string of long shifts) exacerbate that?

Also on the departmental level - I think we'd be well served to have hard conversations about use of force. I recall a conversation not to long ago with a friend who had come back from multiple deployments with the military and got a job with a local PD. After their "warrior training" he was baffled.  His words to me were essentially, "in Iraq we had to go through a long, multiple step escalation of force - even when someone was actively trying to kill you.  Here, you can escalate immediately." I know that this line of questioning causes some people alarm - but I think we'd be better off as a country if we went ahead and had it.

This poor lady didn't follow departmental policies or guidelines for something like this.  She certainly should have stayed outside and called for help.

There's a lot that we're likely to simply never know.  There were two people who saw what went down - and one of them is dead.

I don't know what "punishment" even looks like here.  She'll have to sleep with this every night for the rest of her life.  She is unlikely to be a cop any longer.  There will likely be civil damages - but those will be complicated without criminal charges.  The victims family is likely to get some sort of insurance settlement and a "sorry."

I don't know how you'd even define restorative justice here, but knowing this man's religious tradition - it's likely what he would desire.

This case just really sucks.

You'd likely not know this guys name if he wasn't black - and she wasn't a white police officer.  That by itself is unfortunate.

But, we need to know this guy's name.  And gun owners, and police officers, and maybe most importantly police departments need to know this story.

Overwork people who hold life and death in their hands, and what else should you expect?

 

[DaveTN]

Cops sometime work long shifts. Some work two jobs. I don’t buy the 15 hour long shift disoriented BS; but that’s just my opinion. Sometimes you just make dumb azz mistakes.

I was a trained Police Officer that took more people into custody in a home or business burglary than I can remember. I would not have called for back-up if I found my own door open. Even if that’s department policy (which I doubt) I’m sure it’s not law.

However… as soon as I knew someone was inside I would have backed out and used the outside wall for cover. If the person didn’t respond or comply with my commands I wouldn’t have shot him unless I was being attacked or thought I saw a weapon. Short of being shot at I can’t think of a situation where I would fire without having a clear view of my target and believing him to be an immediate threat. If I had no response whatsoever I might yell for someone to call 911 or I might try myself.

Of course arm chair quarterbacking and hindsight is always 20/20. This is just discussion; we still don’t know what happened. The city of Dallas needs to step up….sooner than later.

Of course it’s murder; is it justified? Nope, not unless she was attacked. It appears that it was voluntary.

Do I think she will be convicted based on what I am seeing now? Yes. Do I think she will do time? Yes, more than a citizen that isn’t a cop; but not much.

I’m not familiar with the DA in Dallas at all. If this Officer was on Chicago PD that States Attorney would be asking for life for a cop.

Unfortunately for the victim this Officer made bad choices; choices that she won’t be able to walk away from.

[E4 No More]

4 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Cops sometime work long shifts. Some work two jobs. I don’t buy the 15 hour long shift disoriented BS; but that’s just my opinion. Sometimes you just make dumb azz mistakes.

I was a trained Police Officer that took more people into custody in a home or business burglary than I can remember. I would not have called for back-up if I found my own door open. Even if that’s department policy (which I doubt) I’m sure it’s not law.

However… as soon as I knew someone was inside I would have backed out and used the outside wall for cover. If the person didn’t respond or comply with my commands I wouldn’t have shot him unless I was being attacked or thought I saw a weapon. Short of being shot at I can’t think of a situation where I would fire without having a clear view of my target and believing him to be an immediate threat. If I had no response whatsoever I might yell for someone to call 911 or I might try myself.

Of course arm chair quarterbacking and hindsight is always 20/20. This is just discussion; we still don’t know what happened. The city of Dallas needs to step up….sooner than later.

Of course it’s murder; is it justified? Nope, not unless she was attacked. It appears that it was voluntary.

Do I think she will be convicted based on what I am seeing now? Yes. Do I think she will do time? Yes, more than a citizen that isn’t a cop; but not much.

I’m not familiar with the DA in Dallas at all. If this Officer was on Chicago PD that States Attorney would be asking for life for a cop.

Unfortunately for the victim this Officer made bad choices; choices that she won’t be able to walk away from.

I couldn't agree more. Only thing I could add would be if the door was forced or just open. The answer to that might dictate a change. In my department you didn't perform a residence search alone. Businesses, on the other hand, we did alone if no sign of forced entry because it's amazing how often businesses fail to lock up at night.

[bersaguy]

26 minutes ago, SWJewellTN said:

I couldn't agree more. Only thing I could add would be if the door was forced or just open. The answer to that might dictate a change. In my department you didn't perform a residence search alone. Businesses, on the other hand, we did alone if no sign of forced entry because it's amazing how often businesses fail to lock up at night.

I use to work for a small business and couldn't count the times I got called to the business at night because the night person set the Alarm for the business when leaving but failed to lock the front door and someone tripped the alarm and because I was the closest employee I got called by the boss and asked if I would please go lock the door and reset the alarm as the police would not leave until the business was secured. They had entered and did a search and cleared it before I got there. They left when I left.

[gregintenn]

5 hours ago, KahrMan said:

Quote

Guyger just had ended a 15-hour shift Thursday when she returned in uniform to the South Side Flats apartment complex. She parked on the fourth floor, instead of the third, where she lived, according to the affidavit filed for the officer’s arrest warrant, possibly suggesting that she was confused or disoriented.

 

When she put her key in the apartment door that was unlocked and slightly ajar, it opened. Inside, the lights were off. Then she saw a figure in the darkness, the affidavit said.

The officer concluded that her apartment was being burglarized and gave verbal commands to the figure, who allegedly ignored them. She then drew her weapon and fired twice, the affidavit said.

When she turned on the lights, she realized she was in the wrong unit, according to the affidavit, which appeared to be based almost entirely upon the officer’s account.

 

 

What we need is an attitude shift among police officers. The above statement alone shows the arrogance and self importance I see regularly among them.

Put yourself in the guy's shoes a minute. Someone just came in your home uninvited and began shouting commands at you.

I don't know about anyone else, but I doubt I'd "obey" or 'submit either.

It shouldn't always be "us against them", but that's sure the vibe I get from almost any officer I'm around.