Officer entering wrong apartment, killing occupant

[DaveTN]

7 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

It shouldn't always be "us against them", but that's sure the vibe I get from almost any officer I'm around.

Dang man, what are you doing when you are around them? 

[gregintenn]

1 minute ago, DaveTN said:

Dang man, what are you doing when you are around them? 

Not wearing a badge, apparently.

[E4 No More]

6 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

What we need is an attitude shift among police officers. The above statement alone shows the arrogance and self importance I see regularly among them.

Put yourself in the guy's shoes a minute. Someone just came in your home uninvited and began shouting commands at you.

I don't know about anyone else, but I doubt I'd "obey" or 'submit either.

It shouldn't always be "us against them", but that's sure the vibe I get from almost any officer I'm around.

There's a reason for that vibe. Police spend most of their time dealing with people in negative circumstances. After awhile you look at everyone negatively and form that "Us versus Them" mentality. Here's another thing: I worked in an area of metropolitan Kansas City, MO where most of the people that I encountered were white. It is for that reason that I arrested far more white people than black people. But every time I had to stop/arrest a black person I was accused of stopping/arresting them because they were black.

[gregintenn]

10 minutes ago, SWJewellTN said:

There's a reason for that vibe. Police spend most of their time dealing with people in negative circumstances. After awhile you look at everyone negatively and form that "Us versus Them" mentality. Here's another thing: I worked in an area of metropolitan Kansas City, MO where most of the people that I encountered were white. It is for that reason that I arrested far more white people than black people. But every time I had to stop/arrest a black person I was accused of stopping/arresting them because they were black.

Fair enough. I understand that. But being an azz to everyone who isn't a criminal certainly does little to improve their public image. An image that badly needs improving.

[KahrMan]

23 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

What we need is an attitude shift among police officers. The above statement alone shows the arrogance and self importance I see regularly among them.

Put yourself in the guy's shoes a minute. Someone just came in your home uninvited and began shouting commands at you.

I don't know about anyone else, but I doubt I'd "obey" or 'submit either.

It shouldn't always be "us against them", but that's sure the vibe I get from almost any officer I'm around.

I don't think the statement shows any arrogance and self importance.  If I was in his shoes I probably would not have obeyed any commands from an intruder just like what you said..  But put yourself in her shoes.  You walk into "your" dark apartment and see a figure.  I would probably drawn my gun and being barking out orders just like she did.  I don't know whether I would have shot or not but I can see how this situation went to sh*t real quick.

[E4 No More]

25 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Fair enough. I understand that. But being an azz to everyone who isn't a criminal certainly does little to improve their public image. An image that badly needs improving.

I'm not talking about being an azz; I'm talking about an attitude. And to point out something about the second part of your statement, what do you think if someone followed you around filming you but showed only bad things that you do. Would you appreciate being treated like an azz then?

[peejman]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Also on the departmental level - I think we'd be well served to have hard conversations about use of force. I recall a conversation not to long ago with a friend who had come back from multiple deployments with the military and got a job with a local PD. After their "warrior training" he was baffled.  His words to me were essentially, "in Iraq we had to go through a long, multiple step escalation of force - even when someone was actively trying to kill you.  Here, you can escalate immediately." I know that this line of questioning causes some people alarm - but I think we'd be better off as a country if we went ahead and had it.

Indeed.

Its a catch-22. Stuff happens really fast and they've got to react.  One poor decision can cause the wrong people to die. 

At the same time, it seems like a lot of these events involve people completely ignoring the police. A fraction more patience and politeness on both sides would go a long way. 

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, SWJewellTN said:

I'm not talking about being an azz; I'm talking about an attitude. And to point out something about the second part of your statement, what do you think if someone followed you around filming you but showed only bad things that you do. Would you appreciate being treated like an azz then?

No sir I would not. However, I've yet to follow anyone around with a camera.

[DaveTN]

The majority of the public either doesn’t have anything against cops or really doesn’t have an opinion either way. Some people don’t like anyone in authority…. cops, teachers, their boss, politicians; they aren’t going to charge their opinion. They also are the ones that will have problems in an encounter with cops.

Cops are also blamed for a lot of stuff they have no control over. Cops aren’t to blame because you can’t smoke weed or drive with a BAC above .08. They aren’t to blame that if they show up at your house because a family member called and said you assaulted or threatened them; you go to jail. They aren’t to blame when a citizen thinks you are weird/suspicious/dangerous and calls to have you checked out.

I don’t think any cops think it will ever be that most people they deal with give them a handshake and a “thank you”. But I’m sure it still happens occasionally.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If you think you can change thins; go either be a cop or an auxiliary Officer. See what it’s like.

[KahrMan]

14 minutes ago, peejman said:

Indeed.

Its a catch-22. Stuff happens really fast and they've got to react.  One poor decision can cause the wrong people to die. 

At the same time, it seems like a lot of these events involve people completely ignoring the police. A fraction more patience and politeness on both sides would go a long way. 

You are correct that it is a catch 22.  This video was just released of a cop being very polite and ends up getting shot.

Fast forward to about 2:40  

 

It really is not fair to arm chair quarterback decisions that have to be made in split seconds.

Edited September 11, 2018 by KahrMan

[peejman]

I'll add that if cops earned a decent wage, there wouldn't be much motivation to work 15 hr days. 

[gregintenn]

2 minutes ago, KahrMan said:

You are correct that it is a catch 22.  This video was just released of a cop being very polite and ends up getting shot.

Fast forward to about 2:40  

 

It really is not fair to arm chair quarterback decisions that have to be made in split seconds.

It also isn't fair for a group of folks to go around shooting innocent people.

[gregintenn]

1 minute ago, peejman said:

I'll add that if cops earned a decent wage, there wouldn't be much motivation to work 15 hr days. 

If it weren't for the union, a decent cop would be able to earn a decent wage.

[gregintenn]

7 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

The majority of the public either doesn’t have anything against cops or really doesn’t have an opinion either way. Some people don’t like anyone in authority…. cops, teachers, their boss, politicians; they aren’t going to charge their opinion. They also are the ones that will have problems in an encounter with cops.

Cops are also blamed for a lot of stuff they have no control over. Cops aren’t to blame because you can’t smoke weed or drive with a BAC above .08. They aren’t to blame that if they show up at your house because a family member called and said you assaulted or threatened them; you go to jail. They aren’t to blame when a citizen thinks you are weird/suspicious/dangerous and calls to have you checked out.

I don’t think any cops think it will ever be that most people they deal with give them a handshake and a “thank you”. But I’m sure it still happens occasionally.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If you think you can change thins; go either be a cop or an auxiliary Officer. See what it’s like.

It isn't the authority so much as it is the way many people can't seem to handle authority properly.

[peejman]

8 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

It isn't the authority so much as it is the way many people can't seem to handle authority properly.

It's oil and water. There's more than a few cops who've got a chip on their shoulder about being (dis)respected. They tend to be forced to interact with people predisposed to disrespect authority. It's a recipe for disaster. 

[DaveTN]

7 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

It also isn't fair for a group of folks to go around shooting innocent people.

I can’t think of a single shooting I have seen or read about where a cop shot an innocent person and didn’t go to prison. I doubt this one will be any different.

However…I’m sure my idea of “innocent person” and yours may not be the same. You can be stupid enough to get shot, either by a cop or a citizen, and not have committed a crime.

7 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

If it weren't for the union, a decent cop would be able to earn a decent wage.

Metro PD pays $51-66K a year (with full benefits) for a Patrol Officer. Many departments pay more than that. That’s not a decent wage?

One of the reasons I quit many years ago was because of pay. That’s not the case now in the Department I was in. Everyone wants a high paying job. If they have skills someone will pay a lot for; they need to go do that.

[peejman]

5 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I can’t think of a single shooting I have seen or read about where a cop shot an innocent person and didn’t go to prison. I doubt this one will be any different.

However…I’m sure my idea of “innocent person” and yours may not be the same. You can be stupid enough to get shot, either by a cop or a citizen, and not have committed a crime.

Metro PD pays $51-66K a year (with full benefits) for a Patrol Officer. Many departments pay more than that. That’s not a decent wage?

One of the reasons I quit many years ago was because of pay. That’s not the case now in the Department I was in. Everyone wants a high paying job. If they have skills someone will pay a lot for; they need to go do that.

That's more than I thought, but assuming you're referring to Nashville metro, the cost of living it pretty high too. 

[gregintenn]

9 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I can’t think of a single shooting I have seen or read about where a cop shot an innocent person and didn’t go to prison. I doubt this one will be any different.

However…I’m sure my idea of “innocent person” and yours may not be the same. You can be stupid enough to get shot, either by a cop or a citizen, and not have committed a crime.

Metro PD pays $51-66K a year (with full benefits) for a Patrol Officer. Many departments pay more than that. That’s not a decent wage?

One of the reasons I quit many years ago was because of pay. That’s not the case now in the Department I was in. Everyone wants a high paying job. If they have skills someone will pay a lot for; they need to go do that.

As I understand it, our local small town and county LEOs don't get paid very well. Some manage to steal a pretty good living, however.

[DaveTN]

28 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

It isn't the authority so much as it is the way many people can't seem to handle authority properly.

Exactly; same way on any job. On the Department I was on they had a system to handle that; some do, some don’t. But only one person is responsiable for that.

6 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

As I understand it, our local small town and county LEOs don't get paid very well. Some manage to steal a pretty good living, however.

If you have Police committing crimes; pick up the phone and call the Sheriff. If it’s the Sheriff call the TBI. Like any crime it will continue if the citizens keep theirs mouths shut.

Isn’t the Ex-Rutherford County Sheriff still in jail?

Edited September 11, 2018 by DaveTN

[E4 No More]

36 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

If it weren't for the union, a decent cop would be able to earn a decent wage.

No union in Missouri where I was a cop. It isn't allowed by law. On a small department in 1993 I made $24,000 per year. No, I didn't F'n steal to supplement my income, nor did I violate anyone's rights in the performance of my duties. The F'n mayor was the corrupt one in the city.

[bersaguy]

I have had the opportunity on a couple occassions in past couple month to talk with police officers from both Gallatin PD 2 weeks ago when I got pulled over for expired tags on my Jeep. The officer was very friendly and polite. Ask me for all my paperwork, license and Insurance and registration and then told me why he pulled me over. He went back to his car and wrote out the ticket. He told me what I needed to do to get the ticket dismissed. I signed the ticket. Handed it back to him. He thanked me and I thanked him. He knew I had a carry permit but it was never mentioned. I was getting ready to go fishing a month ago and was at a launch ramp when a Sheriffs car came in to parking lot and made a round and the officer stopped and ask me what Iwas going fishing for and I said Bass. I had my gun in open carry in clear site but we talked fishing and what baits I was going to use and about that time my partner arrived and the officer wished us luck on catching some fish and drove off.

I don't understand how people say they can't get along with police officers. What I experienced with those two officers is pretty much what I have experienced my whole life while having a police encounter.

[E4 No More]

3 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

I have had the opportunity on a couple occassions in past couple month to talk with police officers from both Gallatin PD 2 weeks ago when I got pulled over for expired tags on my Jeep. The officer was very friendly and polite. Ask me for all my paperwork, license and Insurance and registration and then told me why he pulled me over. He went back to his car and wrote out the ticket. He told me what I needed to do to get the ticket dismissed. I signed the ticket. Handed it back to him. He thanked me and I thanked him. He knew I had a carry permit but it was never mentioned. I was getting ready to go fishing a month ago and was at a launch ramp when a Sheriffs car came in to parking lot and made a round and the officer stopped and ask me what Iwas going fishing for and I said Bass. I had my gun in open carry in clear site but we talked fishing and what baits I was going to use and about that time my partner arrived and the officer wished us luck on catching some fish and drove off.

I don't understand how people say they can't get along with police officers. What I experienced with those two officers is pretty much what I have experienced my whole life while having a police encounter.

The ones I let go with a warning were the ones who said something like, "Yes, officer...I screwed up." The ones that I wrote were the ones who said something like, "Your RADAR is wrong!" or "I'm late for work!" or "You're just picking on me!"

[Capbyrd]

13 hours ago, bersaguy said:

 I had my gun in open carry in clear site but we talked fishing and what baits I was going to use and about that time my partner arrived and the officer wished us luck on catching some fish and drove off.

I don't understand how people say they can't get along with police officers. What I experienced with those two officers is pretty much what I have experienced my whole life while having a police encounter.

 

Good thing you were white or it wouldn't have gone that way at all. 

[bersaguy]

11 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

 

Good thing you were white or it wouldn't have gone that way at all. 

I don't have any reason to believe your statement. I have several black friends that live here in Gallatin and they all get along fine with the police. We also have several black officers and I never hear of them being anything but professional when dealing with the public. I do realize that you live in or near Memphis and the atmosphere and enviroment is probably different, I don't know. I can only speak of my experiences with the officers here and in surroundng towns.

[btq96r]

14 hours ago, peejman said:

I'll add that if cops earned a decent wage, there wouldn't be much motivation to work 15 hr days. 

Maybe, maybe not.  I'd imagine at any income level, the chance to earn more is a strong enough motivator to make people put in a lot of overtime hours.  I see it often enough with the physicians I work with at my job, and they're making a hell of a lot more than cops.