Trust & Long Distance Gun Sale Transactions

[Sidewinder]

This is something that has stumped me for some time. Let's say you find a gun that you want to buy, on a forum, that an individual has in another state. You strike up an exchange of communication and the two of you agree on a price. He agrees to sell and you agree to buy. Now what! I fully understand that for personal protection, it's probably best if both parties use an FFL. For the sake of this conversation, let's say both parties agree to go through an FFL. Now what! Are you going to send him the agreed price in money order or cashier's check, and trust him to send you the gun? What if he doesn't send the gun? Maybe he never even had a gun! Looks like you've just been had! Now, on the flip side...and you're the one selling the gun, are you going to send the gun when he agrees to send the money order or cashiers check?

How we look at this situation, probably depends on whether we are the buyer or the seller. I'm sure there are probably some individuals on this site and this forum that has faced this dilemma. I would like to hear from those that have been involved in transactions that went as agreed, and those that things went sour on. Also, would like to hear suggestions and opinions on how things could be made safer for both buyer and seller. Please discount the buyer getting in his vehicle and driving to the seller or the seller bringing the gun to the buyer. I am currently faced with this situation and appreciate your sage advice. Thanks.

[Omega]

Caveat emptor on the money part, I would use a medium which could be traced directly to a person or bank account, such as Paypal, Zelle, etc, and make sure it contains a note to what the transaction is for.  It would fall to small claims court, unless wire or postal fraud would apply, so make sure you keep all emails, text messages etc.  As to the FFL, if the firearm is in another state, that is mandatory.  The only issue there would be is if he wants to send it directly to an FFL, some FFLs do not accept transfers from individuals.

[QuackerSmacker]

Technically, in an interstate transaction, you only need an FFL on the receiving end.  I've done this multiple times (in online auctions) and never had a problem.  Obviously in this case you don't have the auction site as a comfort level for your money.  The only thing I can suggest is to deeply scour the particular forum you're dealing with, and you may come up with some clues as to the seller's integrity.

But in general, sellers will never ship a firearm until they have the money.   Also, it should be noted that some FFLs will not agree to receive a gun from a non-FFL in another state. 

I've never had a deal go sour, and I would add that when I have bought sight-unseen,  any surprises that I've had as to the firearm's condition have been 100% positive.  That's across a very large number of transactions.   I kind of doubt that's the norm, and believe I've just been very lucky ----- So, good luck to you!

 

[Ray Z]

Last year I got burned real bad on a Sig MPX. I bid and won one from a company in Las Vegas. To avoid the 3.5% up charge for credit cards I sent them money orders for over $1500. Making a long story short my FFL never saw the gun. Had the post office send me copies of the cashed money orders and took all my paperwork to my local police. They took a report and sent it on the police in Las Vegas. Who intern sent it to the district attorney's office. So even though i had copies of the money orders with the persons SS# on it and all the paperwork they wouldn't prosecute the persons involved.

Even though it would cost me the up charge, if I had of used my credit card they would have taken the money out of their account and sent it back to me. Expensive lesson but I will never send money orders again.

[Sidewinder]

1 hour ago, Ray Z said:

Last year I got burned real bad on a Sig MPX. I bid and won one from a company in Las Vegas. To avoid the 3.5% up charge for credit cards I sent them money orders for over $1500. Making a long story short my FFL never saw the gun. Had the post office send me copies of the cashed money orders and took all my paperwork to my local police. They took a report and sent it on the police in Las Vegas. Who intern sent it to the district attorney's office. So even though i had copies of the money orders with the persons SS# on it and all the paperwork they wouldn't prosecute the persons involved.

Even though it would cost me the up charge, if I had of used my credit card they would have taken the money out of their account and sent it back to me. Expensive lesson but I will never send money orders again.

Ray Z, sorry for your loss. Did you use U.S. Postal Money Orders? Couldn't you prosecute the person under the "mail fraud" statute, if you did? I have done at least one out of state deal...and it was only a barrel, not a full gun, and all came out positive. But, I'm under the impression that "mail fraud" would be brought against the thief on the other end. Have you never got any restitution? Isn't "mail fraud" a felony?

[Sidewinder]

1 hour ago, Omega said:

Caveat emptor on the money part, I would use a medium which could be traced directly to a person or bank account, such as Paypal, Zelle, etc, and make sure it contains a note to what the transaction is for.  It would fall to small claims court, unless wire or postal fraud would apply, so make sure you keep all emails, text messages etc.  As to the FFL, if the firearm is in another state, that is mandatory.  The only issue there would be is if he wants to send it directly to an FFL, some FFLs do not accept transfers from individuals.

Omega, for personal reasons I will not use PayPal and am not familiar with Zelle. I'm wondering if things would get too complicated to try to get the banks involved in an "escrow" that would assure full compliance by both parties?

[bersaguy]

2 hours ago, Ray Z said:

Last year I got burned real bad on a Sig MPX. I bid and won one from a company in Las Vegas. To avoid the 3.5% up charge for credit cards I sent them money orders for over $1500. Making a long story short my FFL never saw the gun. Had the post office send me copies of the cashed money orders and took all my paperwork to my local police. They took a report and sent it on the police in Las Vegas. Who intern sent it to the district attorney's office. So even though i had copies of the money orders with the persons SS# on it and all the paperwork they wouldn't prosecute the persons involved.

Even though it would cost me the up charge, if I had of used my credit card they would have taken the money out of their account and sent it back to me. Expensive lesson but I will never send money orders again.

Sounds like the guy that got your money may have been the district attorneys brother in law..............JMHO

Sorry for your loss Ray.

[Omega]

21 minutes ago, Sidewinder said:

Omega, for personal reasons I will not use PayPal and am not familiar with Zelle. I'm wondering if things would get too complicated to try to get the banks involved in an "escrow" that would assure full compliance by both parties?

Zelle is new(ish) kind of like Paypal but not (yet) anti-gun.  I recall there was an escrow service out there that use to cater to purchases like gun sales, can't recall the name though.

 

Edit: it lists some here: https://support.gunbroker.com/hc/en-us/articles/221688408-Using-an-Online-Escrow-Service

[Ray Z]

Letter to LVPD.zip

I realize Las Vegas has as many problems as anywhere else, But I did all the work for them.

See attached

[Sidewinder]

8 hours ago, Omega said:

Zelle is new(ish) kind of like Paypal but not (yet) anti-gun.  I recall there was an escrow service out there that use to cater to purchases like gun sales, can't recall the name though.

 

Edit: it lists some here: https://support.gunbroker.com/hc/en-us/articles/221688408-Using-an-Online-Escrow-Service

Thanks for the information, Omega.

[DaveTN]

I’ve bought and sold guns across state lines on forums like Smith & Wesson. Just like this forum you can get an idea of who is credible and who is not. No way would I do a private sale with a stranger. If you use PayPal and there is an issue; you are screwed when a gun is involved, it’s a violation of their rules. If you pay with a Postal money order you may have a shot because the Postal Investigators are Federal Agents.

I’m looking for a gun now that I’m not having any luck finding locally. I’ll go through GunBroker or, I don’t have a problem dealing with an FFL as long as I can verify their information and make contact.

Our legal system has not kept up with technology. People think stealing with a computer is somehow okay. Things like jurisdictional issues make it nearly impossible to prosecute without a Federal agency involved. Some day that will change.

I also think that unless you are dealing with some hard to find collectable, with FFL’s being involved on both ends and shipping; it’s probably no longer a good deal.

[Hozzie]

I have bought and sold a lot of guns on forums.  Basically don't deal with people who have very few posts and no feedback.  If you don't see any feedback, ask them if they have any other forums with positive feedback.  I have used Paypal, USPS MO, Personal Check's, etc without a single issue.  Do a search on any email address from them to check for issues and also a name.  If they have screwed someone, there is info out there and a few simple searches can find it.

IF it seems too good to be true, it is.  Simple rule.

[Ray Z]

4 hours ago, Hozzie said:

F it seems too good to be true, it is.  Simple rule.

My dad said that to me all the time. I should have remembered.

[bersaguy]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:58 PM, Ray Z said:

Last year I got burned real bad on a Sig MPX. I bid and won one from a company in Las Vegas. To avoid the 3.5% up charge for credit cards I sent them money orders for over $1500. Making a long story short my FFL never saw the gun. Had the post office send me copies of the cashed money orders and took all my paperwork to my local police. They took a report and sent it on the police in Las Vegas. Who intern sent it to the district attorney's office. So even though i had copies of the money orders with the persons SS# on it and all the paperwork they wouldn't prosecute the persons involved.

Even though it would cost me the up charge, if I had of used my credit card they would have taken the money out of their account and sent it back to me. Expensive lesson but I will never send money orders again.

I just re read your post and I missed the part where you said you bidded on the gun and won from a company in Las vegas. Have you tried getting in touch with the company that was holding the auction?

[QuackerSmacker]

Bingo, with the last post. The online auction houses really like to protect their integrity.  It's their business, their lifeblood.   Get them involved.  As in NOW.

I've done many dozens of these things. Get your auction site people animated on this.  They are the ones that care about the outcome, arguably even more than you do, because they need to protect the integrity of their very being, and you're only pissed about one transaction. 

Get them wound up.  Best of luck!

[Ray Z]

It came from armslist. From a company that doesn't exist, with a phone number that isn't there. Had to dig for the name and number. Armslist refused to be a part of this. The officer I talked to in Las Vegas kept putting me off, and the ADA flat told me that they couldn't win so they weren't going to try. Funny, the person that cashed the postal money orders has their drivers license number on the front of the money orders from when they cashed them at the post office.

 

I'm not trying to steal Sidewinders thunder. I'm just trying to show how futal a long distance transaction can be.

[bersaguy]

5 minutes ago, Ray Z said:

It came from armslist. From a company that doesn't exist, with a phone number that isn't there. Had to dig for the name and number. Armslist refused to be a part of this. The officer I talked to in Las Vegas kept putting me off, and the ADA flat told me that they couldn't win so they weren't going to try. Funny, the person that cashed the postal money orders has their drivers license number on the front of the money orders from when they cashed them at the post office.

 

I'm not trying to steal Sidewinders thunder. I'm just trying to show how futal a long distance transaction can be.

I understand Ray. I bet if you bought a refrigator for $1,500.00 they would be hunting the person down like a dog and prosecuted them and you might have go your money back. But it was gun........JMHO