Diversity and Inclusion in the 2A Community

[Links2k]

No, I look nothing like Mr.Sutherland, but I was a huge fan of his show 24.

My wife and I are solidly middle class with three adult college educated kids, and conservative upbringings. That has changed. We no longer consider ourselves a part of any party or group. 

I come from a hard working family where I saw my grandfather work side by side with game show host Wink Martindale, farmed his own land, and raised animals. Everyone in the family was expected to participate. 

My wife is college educated, and worked her way up from loading planes at FEDEX , to management, and finally a regulatory compliance SME at FEDEX World Headquarters. 

I’m a 90% disabled veteran, and a government employee scheduled to retire in a few years. The highlights of my military career were being on the Ft.Gordon, Ga. SRT team, and being a part of the service members who had the swiftest victory in combat history during Desert Storm.  I’m mostly conservative in my thinking, but I have a soft spot for those who struggle. It’s not always that they are lazy or don’t work, as David and Mc mentioned, lots of times the are profiled and discarded simply because of the pigment of their skin. 

What I’ve enjoyed about the last ten years on TGO is meeting members in person. We’ve had great transactions, and even better interactions. 

I don’t know if it’s upbringing that causes people to be prejudiced, but I do know that spending time with someone who doesn’t look like you, or share your views greatly benefits all parties involved. 

For those who have never met me, and only know my Sutherland Profile, here are a few photos. 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by LINKS2K

[n0rlf]

5 hours ago, TGO David said:

You know, I am glad that this is making you think about these things but at the same time I wonder why it's making you seemingly obsess over it.  Hopefully it is because it caused you to be introspective and ask of yourself the same questions that you're asking here.

To answer your question: 

YES I am saying that, from what I have seen across the spectrum of social media and in person, the majority of people that you see posting online or at gun shops or at the shooting range are white folks just like me and there isn't a whole lot of diversity.  What I also have personally witnessed is the difference in how specific minorities are treated when they walk into some gun stores and onto some shooting ranges.

If an Asian guy walks into a gun store, no one bats an eye.  But if a black guy, a Hispanic guy or a Middle Eastern guy walk into a gun shop, I've personally witnessed them being watched closely by the dudes behind the counter  So, am I the only person that notices this?  The fact that you're questioning what my motives are suggests that you haven't seen it.   But to answer my own question, I know I am not the only one who does. 

This podcast was a lens into another community's view of the firearms culture and my sincere hope was that people would look through it and see things differently.  I had hoped it would help us see things from that community's perspective.  But instead I've got folks on TGO, like you, insinuating that there's something wrong with me and that community for seeing and noticing things the way that we do.

 

I'm just going to say it:  There's innocent ignorance and then there's willful ignorance, and only the former is forgivable.

 

"Hopefully it is because it caused you to be introspective and ask of yourself the same questions that you're asking here."

Yes it is due to looking inward to see if there is something I am missing. Is there a viewpoint that I am not seeing or misreading? Not obsessing just curious to why we both feel like we are talking to a wall. neither side being able to see something else is not unheard of and often there are more than one way to see things. However in this case I think I am genuinely missing your point. 

"If an Asian guy walks into a gun store, no one bats an eye.  But if a black guy, a Hispanic guy or a Middle Eastern guy walk into a gun shop, I've personally witnessed them being watched closely by the dudes behind the counter  So, am I the only person that notices this?  The fact that you're questioning what my motives are suggests that you haven't seen it.   But to answer my own question, I know I am not the only one who does. "

 

I have seen it. I am guilty of it. However it is not just the color of skin I see. Actually color has less to do with it for me. How one carries oneself, clothing, language, demeanor, attitude, and yes color to some degree. I am usually pretty observent, I tend to watch others fairly close. Yes stereotyping comes into it some. But in my case race is not the predominate factor. As I mentioned color does not matter if you walk in with your pants hanging, speaking ghetto, and talking about getting a  new GAT. That gets my attention more than anyone's race.

Now as for insinuating anything not my intention. I understand the question as to "Have you ever noticed". Yeah I have noticed. Now, insinuating that because you have seen some gun shops do this and setting that onto the gun and shooting community as a whole is an issue with me. You see, that is what the "Other side" has been doing for decades. So while I am trying hard to see what you are asking I see it as it goes both ways. Stereotypes exist for a reason and right or wrong I am of the opinion that profiling does have a place at times. 

Keep in mind that some people get my attention due to the way they act, talk, smell, look, or dress. I do not intend to apologize to anyone for that as it does no harm. I raise no alarm rather I just tend to watch closer. I have seen racism close up and diverity and inclusion would do absolutely nothing to help it. Do you feel included or welcomed in every place you go? Of course not. So the bigger question is how do we handle it. If it is nothing more than watching someone you do not know until they have proven themselves then that is no big deal. I guarantee I have seen more "Minority" racism towrds me than the other way around! So how do we go about being inclusive if those wishing to be included cannot promise the same?

I see this as a bigger picture issue and not one that we should be seeing in terms of just one "Community". We are beyond that. We had made progress but I think the last administration ruined what progress was made and has made the environment ripe for divisiveness. Before we look t ourselves I think some others need to look at why those stereotypes exist and maybe work on getting that handled first. Yes we can do better but to do so it is not about us welcoming a few people into the gun shop or range. 

I have been lucky to travel the world and I have close friends from more diversity that most will ever know. I like to think I judge by actions and deeds rather than appearance but as noted above I do observe and reserve judgement until I am given a reason to act.

I was on a very prestigous PGA course in Florida with the Vice President of our company. We were there with some of the executives of a very large well know Juice Company based in Florida. While waiting for the valet parker my clubs were grabbed and taken in right away. John's were left sitting there. We waited and the same caddy returned and grabbed someone else's bag from behind us! John grabbed his bag and carried it in while telling me he is used to that treatment. John was a very well mannered black male. Dressed very nicely for an afternoon of golf. Was it right that it happened? Was that club being inclusive? Nope, Did John make a big deal of it? Nope again. What he did do was send a note to the club board explaining why they lost the business of our company and the tournament we had held there for many years. Of course they responded that they would speak to that valet, train their employees, and would we come back? Problem is that John saw something that day. He explained it later. Not only was it the valet, it was the waiter at lunch after, it was the beer cart gals, it was the marshalls. All of them served John last that day regardl;ess of where he was in line. After he had mentioned it on the drive home I got to thinking back and he was correct. I also mentioned that on our local course we always played that did not happen. He mentioned that for the first dozen times or so he had visited it had. Until he had proven himself it had not changed but once the locals got to know him it had. So yes, it can and does happen, It is wrong that John died before he could see an end to that treatment. I miss him everyday. He was a friend, a brother, and a mentor.

So while being inclusive is a great idea it is not always going to happen. Sometimes being pushed into something just makes it worse. There is no way diversity training is going to change the mindset of 90% of people in the world. We are all basing our actions on many things, how we were taught, how we have been treated, how we have seen others treated, and not the least of which is how we see society wanting us to. Whatever clique you follow or closely link with is going to have a great impact on your behavior.

So when you mention how do we be more inclusive and diverse I see a question designed to get people to ask themselves a few questions. The NRA bashing is just a red herring. It has nothing to do with the real issue at all in my opinion. So, grouping an entire community into one idea and basically saying they are not inclusive enough is a tough sell. Especially to the alpha types that are prevalent in the shooting world. 

I think perhaps you are correct also in that I have not seen the reactions that you spoke of all that much. I tend to gravitate to and associate with folks that are like minded. As we have several different races and colors in my family that obviously leaves out the openly racist types. 

I apologize if I came across as acrimonious. Not my intention. I do however call it plainly and as I see it. I stand behind my call out on the NRA piece being a little heavy. I stand behind my call out of some seeing things that they want to see rather than reality.

Having said all that I will assist anyone that wants to better themselves in any way i can. With Parkinson's I can no longer shoot as well as I used to but I can still teach the basics! I have taught hundreds of folks of all ages, races, genders, and abilities over the years. I will be more than willing to do so anytime with or without the NRA backing!

Now is that inclusive or diverse enough for me to meet anyone's standards? Not that it matters to me as I mentioned I call it as I see it but I am still human enough to want to be liked, and accepted. Often to be those we must also be seen to meet someone else's ideals and standards.  I can also be proud of the fact that I am willing to admit that publicly. I have found most cannot.  

[n0rlf]

2 minutes ago, LINKS2K said:

No, I look nothing like Mr.Sutherland, but I was a huge fan of his show 24.

My wife and I are solidly middle class with three adult college educated kids, and conservative upbringings. That has changed. We no longer consider ourselves a part of any party or group. 

I come from a hard working family where I saw my grandfather work side by side with game show host Wink Martindale, farmed his own land, and raised animals. Everyone in the family was expected to participate. 

My wife is college educated, and worked her way up from loading planes at FEDEX , to management, and finally a regulatory compliance SME at FEDEX World Headquarters. 

I’m a 90% disabled veteran, and a government employee scheduled to retire in a few years. The highlights of my military career were being on the Ft.Girdon, Ga. SRT team, and being a part of the service members who had the swiftest victory in combat history during Desert Storm.  I’m mostly conservative in my thinking, but I have a soft spot for those who struggle. It’s not always that they are lazy or don’t work, as David and Mc mentioned, lots of times the are profiled and discarded simply because of the pigment of their skin. 

What I’ve enjoyed about the last ten years on TGO is meeting members in person. We’ve had great transactions, and even better interactions. 

I don’t know if it’s upbringing that causes people to be prejudiced, but I do know that spending time with someone who doesn’t look like you, or share your views greatly benefits all parties involved. 

For those who have never met me, and only know my Sutherland Profile, here are a few photos. 

 

Your badges are crooked!

Sorry, that is the marine side of me!  All kidding aside thanks for your service from another serived connected disabled vet!

 

[btq96r]

I'm taking next week off of work, so I'll pick some time and listen to the podcast with a clear head, hoping to be exposed to a new viewpoint, or learn something I didn't know before pressing play.  Just from the debate it's provoked here, I think it will be time spent well.

Now, I get that whenever anyone mentions "diversity and inclusion" it's almost an instinctual response for many to think that you're being asked to feel sorry for being white, or having privilege (however it's defined in context), or anything else that you feel chips you down to raise up someone else.  It doesn't have to be unless you're committed to feeling such.  I'm white, well off, fat & happy, and I'm not apologizing for a damn thing.  But I'm also cognizant that my experiences (good and bad), are mine alone, and I know only what I can assume about others until I take the time to learn and explore, or simply listen to their stories.  Even then, I'll never have the full effect that being anything other than a white male brings, so I'll only ever be able to know so much.  One thing I'm sure of though, is any prejudices applied to me were few and far between, enabling my journey to where I'm at today to be smoother than it would be for someone else of the same skill level, drive, and education in a different skin or gender.  It doesn't cost me anything I've earned to acknowledge that, and try to make sure I'm not perpetuating it when I have the chance to influence anything.

 

6 hours ago, TGO David said:

If an Asian guy walks into a gun store, no one bats an eye.  But if a black guy, a Hispanic guy or a Middle Eastern guy walk into a gun shop, I've personally witnessed them being watched closely by the dudes behind the counter  So, am I the only person that notices this?  The fact that you're questioning what my motives are suggests that you haven't seen it.   But to answer my own question, I know I am not the only one who does. 

I see it, and not just at gun shops.  It's hard for me to expect anyone to be enthusiastic about 2A culture, when they're ostracized from the time they walk in the door, or would be view suspiciously from the get-go for simply having a firearm...even within the gun community, never mind society and government at large.

[btq96r]

20 minutes ago, n0rlf said:

Your badges are crooked!

Sorry, that is the marine side of me!  All kidding aside thanks for your service from another serived connected disabled vet!

 

Well, he was an MP. 

[n0rlf]

Just now, btq96r said:

Well, he was an MP. 

Oooh that is hitting below the belt man!

[n0rlf]

3 minutes ago, btq96r said:

I'm taking next week off of work, so I'll pick some time and listen to the podcast with a clear head, hoping to be exposed to a new viewpoint, or learn something I didn't know before pressing play.  Just from the debate it's provoked here, I think it will be time spent well.

Now, I get that whenever anyone mentions "diversity and inclusion" it's almost an instinctual response for many to think that you're being asked to feel sorry for being white, or having privilege (however it's defined in context), or anything else that you feel chips you down to raise up someone else.  It doesn't have to be unless you're committed to feeling such.  I'm white, well off, fat & happy, and I'm not apologizing for a damn thing.  But I'm also cognizant that my experiences (good and bad), are mine alone, and I know only what I can assume about others until I take the time to learn and explore, or simply listen to their stories.  Even then, I'll never have the full effect that being anything other than a white male brings, so I'll only ever be able to know so much.  One thing I'm sure of though, is any prejudices applied to me were few and far between, enabling my journey to where I'm at today to be smoother than it would be for someone else of the same skill level, drive, and education in a different skin or gender.  It doesn't cost me anything I've earned to acknowledge that, and try to make sure I'm not perpetuating it when I have the chance to influence anything.

 

I see it, and not just at gun shops.  It's hard for me to expect anyone to be enthusiastic about 2A culture, when they're ostracized from the time they walk in the door, or would be view suspiciously from the get-go for simply having a firearm...even within the gun community, never mind society and government at large.

I am heading to Florida tomorrow to see the grandkids! I will have a long drive that I can use the time to relisten to this one. I will also take the opportunity to listen closer and see if there are some other things that are more enlightening. If nothing else it did open a conversation about the topic!

That alone makes it worth more than any TV show I have seen in decades!

[mikegideon]

My ideas on this subject run pretty deep. I have lived in the black community as the "white boy". Had to listen to white boy jokes when I was the only one late for a manager's meeting (I laughed louder than the joker). And, spent lots of time discussing the issues between the black and white communities. At the time, I was in a new town (Nashville), and didn't know any white folks. Not complaining, mind you. It was a great experience.

With that all said, everybody is welcome in my eyes. And, I will do my best to drag ANYBODY into shooting... black, white, gay, female, all of the above. 

The tone of this thread is that we may all be fundamentally a little racist. In reality, most of my black friends aren't shooters. Hell, most of my white friends aren't either. I live around city slickers. That's not because I haven't been inclusive. It's because it's the way it is. 

In my humble opinion, taking any action because of someone's skin color can be wrong. I try to treat everybody equally. Recruiting brown people kinda goes against that in my eyes.

[94user]

On 6/18/2018 at 8:30 AM, MacGyver said:

A shift in mindset - running towards inclusion and diversity instead of away from it - may be the single most important thing we can do in the coming generation to concrete the rights that the last generation has fought to obtain.  

Diversity and inclusion. I've lived this all my 50+ years without giving it a second thought. I respected everyone that deserved it based on the way they lived , worked and  and treated others, never on the color of their skin. The fact that this has become a political talking point for years upsets me to no end. It's a manufactured crisis caused by the previous presidential administration and promoted by the news media. Call me a nut if you want to but that's how I see it.  I'm supposed to have white guilt?  Why? Who is running away from diversity and inclusion?

 

 

[Sunfish]

It's very hard to be responsible in a world full of bad examples. Mostly people are looking for others to change when all they have to do is look in the mirror and change themselves. We live in the finest country in the world and nothing has ever been fair. It never will be. Walk the walk and dam the talk. Sunfish   

[gregintenn]

15 hours ago, mikegideon said:

My ideas on this subject run pretty deep. I have lived in the black community as the "white boy". Had to listen to white boy jokes when I was the only one late for a manager's meeting (I laughed louder than the joker). And, spent lots of time discussing the issues between the black and white communities. At the time, I was in a new town (Nashville), and didn't know any white folks. Not complaining, mind you. It was a great experience.

With that all said, everybody is welcome in my eyes. And, I will do my best to drag ANYBODY into shooting... black, white, gay, female, all of the above. 

The tone of this thread is that we may all be fundamentally a little racist. In reality, most of my black friends aren't shooters. Hell, most of my white friends aren't either. I live around city slickers. That's not because I haven't been inclusive. It's because it's the way it is. 

In my humble opinion, taking any action because of someone's skin color can be wrong. I try to treat everybody equally. Recruiting brown people kinda goes against that in my eyes.

Your post explains my feelings on this better than I could have put it in my own words.

There are people in this country who have gotten wealthy pretending to fight against racism. Any chance of actually getting rid of it means their income is over. Thus, I doubt it will ever cease to be an issue, real or perceived. Further, many seem to use the word racism like a club to swat any perceived shortcomings in themselves, rather than taking a look in the mirror and addressing the real problem.

I attempt to treat everyone like a human being as long as I'm allowed to.  Tiptoeing around black people, women, etc. seem disingenuous to me.

As far as being treated differently in a gun store, I think one gets treated according to his attire and demeanor rather than skin color most times. When I was a young man, I had long hair, wore jeans and a t shirt. I was treated like a thug at many businesses. Today, thanks to male pattern baldness and perhaps a touch of wisdom that comes with age, the long hair is gone, and the t shirt is replaced with a decent looking button down. I find I am now treated respectfully just about everywhere. My skin color hasn't changed.

In short, dividing people into groups is a democrat tactic that I personally despise. My group is American. You are either with me or against me. United we stand, divided we fall.

[bersaguy]

Growing up in the North as a child I had just about every race, creed and religion including Islam around me everyday in school. We all studied together and at recess we all went out and played together. Marbles. dodgeball, tag, baseball, just what every a kid wanted to play there was a game out there on the playground. If I knew back then what I know today I would have looked around and I would have seen all kids from all races playing the same games and no one being left out because of race, creed, religion or any other reason.

Now with that said, segregation was not practiced in schools up there when I was growing up so I was dumb to it when I moved south at age 17 in 1966. It was not really taught down here either I don't think. I believe it was just practiced but never taught, at least to me. As I grew older I began to realize that it was an option as to how you practiced it or if you did at all. My grandfather never practiced it cause one of his best friends that live down the road on a small farm was an African American and there was many times we broke bread at the same dinner table with the man and his family.

 I never did because I always thought in the back of my mind it was a stupid thing for people to do. I did loose some friends I had made in high school but I just thought to myself they were never really friends anyway. I was never the sharpest knife in the drawer but I knew I was not going to be told who I could or should associate with and who not to  back then and I am still living my life that way 53 years later.

Back on election night when President Obama got elected the first time I had a few friends over to the house watching the polls. And I heard his speech and then I heard Michelle's famous line, "This is the first time in my life I am proud of my Country" and I turned to my friends and I said this country just moved backwards 50 years and they agreed.

I didn't say that because we had elected an African American. I said it because that particular one was elected. He had a chip on his shoulder the size of the dome of the White House and thought he had something to prove and was going to show everyone who he was.

I knew he was not a President for the People but a President for a select few people.

I listened to the Pod cast last evening and I didn't hear what I could call bashing of the NRA. I heard things about it I was not aware of and I heard things that could improve it in the future but I heard a disussion more than a bashing of it.....JMHO on that.

I said it on page 1 of this thread and I will say it one more time. I don't care what your race is, creed is, religion is, gay or straight, male or female. If you want to become a member of TGO just sign up and join a great bunch of people with a passion for something we all love.

[gregintenn]

19 hours ago, LINKS2K said:

No, I look nothing like Mr.Sutherland, but I was a huge fan of his show 24.

My wife and I are solidly middle class with three adult college educated kids, and conservative upbringings. That has changed. We no longer consider ourselves a part of any party or group. 

I come from a hard working family where I saw my grandfather work side by side with game show host Wink Martindale, farmed his own land, and raised animals. Everyone in the family was expected to participate. 

My wife is college educated, and worked her way up from loading planes at FEDEX , to management, and finally a regulatory compliance SME at FEDEX World Headquarters. 

I’m a 90% disabled veteran, and a government employee scheduled to retire in a few years. The highlights of my military career were being on the Ft.Gordon, Ga. SRT team, and being a part of the service members who had the swiftest victory in combat history during Desert Storm.  I’m mostly conservative in my thinking, but I have a soft spot for those who struggle. It’s not always that they are lazy or don’t work, as David and Mc mentioned, lots of times the are profiled and discarded simply because of the pigment of their skin. 

What I’ve enjoyed about the last ten years on TGO is meeting members in person. We’ve had great transactions, and even better interactions. 

I don’t know if it’s upbringing that causes people to be prejudiced, but I do know that spending time with someone who doesn’t look like you, or share your views greatly benefits all parties involved. 

For those who have never met me, and only know my Sutherland Profile, here are a few photos. 

 

I had no idea of Link's race until I saw this post. If I did, I had forgotten it. Should I treat him differenly now? I think not. I've always valued his opinions and will continue to do so. I have not agreed with all his views, but respect them just the same. I see no reason to change my opinion of him, or how I interact with him because I now know he is black. He simply looks like a proud American to me.

 

LINKS2K,

I am curious if you feel unwelcome here because of racial issues?

Edited June 30, 2018 by gregintenn

[gregintenn]

If anyone here wants to know what unwelcome feels like, sign up over at  the democraticunderground forum.

[mikegideon]

47 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I had no idea of Link's race until I saw this post. If I did, I had forgotten it. Should I treat him differenly now? I think not. I've always valued his opinions and will continue to do so. I have not agreed with all his views, but respect them just the same. I see no reason to change my opinion of him, or how I interact with him because I now know he is black. He simply looks like a proud American to me.

 

LINKS2K,

I am curious if you feel unwelcome here because of racial issues?

Seems like I have seen those pictures before. Doesn't matter. I have been around Garufa for hours at a time, but almost always picture him as his avatar. I have spent a lot more time with it than his real face.  Linky has had the same avatar for years. He's probably always gonna be Bruce Willis to me, even if we meet in person a few times.  

It's easy to blame something on racism, especially as heavily promoted as it is these days. It's almost never about skin color.

[Links2k]

3 hours ago, gregintenn said:

LINKS2K,

I am curious if you feel unwelcome here because of racial issues?

There have not been any times that I have not felt welcome on TGO in ten years. 

The biggest problem I have with many of our members is that many behave as if all minority groups are monolithic. It can be bothersome when you’ve always tried to do the right thing while abiding the law. 

Being from Memphis, even my kids would be bothered by people telling them how well spoken, polite and behaved they were, as if they were abnormal. 

I really enjoy TGO. Some have wondered why I’ve hung around this long.  It’s because David has the best forum on the Internet. Mac gives well thought out and reasoned opinions, and the members that I have had personal interactions with were all great, and we always spent lots of time just being human, and enjoying one another’s company. 

Finally, I believe that there have been members who joined because they believed they could be bigots, stereotype people and generally cause trouble, but the moderators have done an excellent job of eventually culling them from the heard. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by LINKS2K

[TGO David]

34 minutes ago, LINKS2K said:

I really enjoy TGO. Some have wondered why I’ve hung around this long.  It’s because David has the best forum on the Internet. Mac gives well thought out and reasoned opinions, and the members that I have had personal interactions with were all great, and we always spent lots of time just being human, and enjoying one another’s company. 

 

I'm just the plumber, Links.  I keep the pipes running and the drain flowing.  The members are what make the place great.

Edited to add...

PS:  Thank you.  I am very humbled by that.

 

[gregintenn]

42 minutes ago, LINKS2K said:

There have not been any times that I have not felt welcome on TGO in ten years. 

The biggest problem I have with many of our members is that many behave as if all minority groups are monolithic. It can be bothersome when you’ve always tried to do the right thing while abiding the law. 

Being from Memphis, even my kids would be bothered by people telling them how well spoken, polite and behaved they were, as if they were abnormal. 

I really enjoy TGO. Some have wondered why I’ve hung around this long.  It’s because David has the best forum on the Internet. Mac gives well thought out and reasoned opinions, and the members that I have had personal interactions with were all great, and we always spent lots of time just being human, and enjoying one another’s company. 

Finally, I believe that there have been members who joined because they believed they could be bigots, stereotype people and generally cause trouble, but the moderators have done an excellent job of eventually culling them from the heard. 

Thanks for taking the time to respond. As always, I respect your opinion, and this time, agree with everything you said.

[GlockSpock]

On 6/18/2018 at 3:23 PM, MacGyver said:

I’m long on Millennials. 

But, it’s worth thinking about - what if they just want something close to the same deal the Baby Boomers got?

How many Boomers do you know who graduated from high school - maybe went to college - but got a job, provided for their family, bought a house, took an occasional vacation, and was able to retire after working for one company their whole career?

I’m a Gen X’er and most of my peers would take that deal if it were available. 

The global economy is 25x what it was at the end of WWII - but all of that profit is going to management and shareholders today - and not taking care of the people building the company.  

I know what it takes to build a company - and I could do it a lot faster if I did it on the backs of my people instead of making them partners in the effort.  I may be leaving some money on the table - but at least I can sleep at night.  

But, I’m really tired of this argument Boomers make that Millennials should just suck it up and get to work - for most that ship has sailed.  And, Boomers running the companies they work for are mostly responsible for it.  

As for this thread, like Erik, I’d encourage you to listen to the podcast before commenting - and instead of turning this thread to the easy person to bash - “the liberal” - think about what it means for people who don’t look like most of us to own a gun?

Maybe ask yourself a question - is TGO a welcoming community to the black gun owner? What about the Hispanic gun owner? Maybe even the Muslim gun owner?

Think and discuss.

This is a large part of an "an issue". Not "the" issue or "this issue" even, but "an issue". I'm 27, I don't know which generation that does or does not make me. I don't really care. I'm not defined by whatever that generation is, but I've been told by numerous people that I'm an "exception" to whatever "my generation" is. Ok, cool I guess, I just wanted to be successful so I've tried to do so over the years. However, know what? It isn't all my doing, in fact it wouldn't be fair in my opinion to say any of it is my doing. I was blessed being born in this country. In the "lottery of life", I could have been born to any third world country without electricity and running water; I doubt I'd be where I were today if that was the case.

I'm not attempting to bring gender or race into this reply, but I will admit that being a white male has likely given me a lot of opportunities as well. Having two parents that are still married helped me out a lot as well. Having parents that were able to purchase a vehicle when I was 16 helped me out a lot. Heck, even learning how to drive helped me out a lot because apparently I've met a several people over the past couple of years that are my age but cannot drive and do not/have not had a driver's license. Their fault? To some extent. But if you were to consider their upbringing and situations, then I think you'd be able to dismiss at least some of it as not being their fault. Try to get a quality job (even with a college degree, as one of their cases) without a drivers license around here.

On 6/18/2018 at 8:37 PM, TGO David said:

YEP.  The younger generations are increasingly blind to differences.  This is a good thing.

Sometimes. I still consider myself "younger" at 27 (and am trying to hold on to that feeling for at least another 10 years). A lot of people I've met are indeed blind to many of these differences, but one thing I've noticed is that a seemingly large proportion of these people that are "open-minded" are only "open-minded" to people that agree with them perfectly. As an example, an extremely "open-minded" or "blind to differences" person may be 100% ugly towards a gun owner. Or, I will tread very carefully with the following but how often is it seen "extremely open minded people" that are in support of topics such as homosexual marriage but they lash out towards anyone that doesn't fully support their ideas and call these people bigots, etc?

In my opinion, being open minded isn't a bad thing per se, but it goes beyond being accepting of the "hot topics" such as and not limited to: lgbt, race, religion, gender, etc. Being "open minded" means also accepting the people that may not agree with you on those issues as well. If someone's actions are filled with hate, then I understand not accepting them/their viewpoint. But if the sole issue is that someone isn't "as accepting" as you, don't hate that person just because they don't agree with you.

On 6/22/2018 at 8:27 PM, McGarrett said:

Low energy or not I think you got my point.

I'll have to listen to the podcast sometime, I haven't yet so I don't really have the right to say much. I agree with including everybody in 2A and TGO 100% but this thread just seems a little over the top. After all this is an internet forum, we really don't know much about the member's race, color, gender, orientation, etc. just from their screen name and avatar.

Please carry on.

Edit: no link, just a snarky joke, I doubt there really is a PCGO, if there was I wouldn't be visiting their site anyway

I won't get into specifics, but over the years we've seen many, many posts and threads that are rather quite anti-gay, pro white, anti-muslim, etc and etc. We don't "need to know" any of those details about a specific member; if any of the members of any of those groups were to join TGO today and find many posts that were "against" them, I don't think it matters whether or not we know those details or not. That person is not going to feel included in our community.

That is also why it is extremely important that the staff here at TGO shut threads like that down ASAP and try to prevent them going in that direction in the first place.

On 6/29/2018 at 1:24 PM, MacGyver said:

I'm going to offer a few thoughts for perspective.

Have you ever been somewhere where you just felt like you didn't belong? Maybe there was nothing obvious.  Likely nothing was said. But, you just felt like you didn't fit in.

Many of us have never had that experience - or would need to really stretch our thinking to do it.  Looking for a church is a perhaps a good analogy.  If you've ever left home and felt compelled to find a church in a new town - it can be daunting.  I recently had a family member move to Murfreesboro.  For a couple of years they tried probably a dozen churches.  They were at one of the bigger ones for about 6 months because their kids went to school with a lot of the kids at that church.  They really put in the work, but still ended up leaving.  When I was talking to my family member about it, she said, "there are some really great people there - but after 6 months I've got people still introducing themselves like I'm a visitor multiple times - and I don't really know that we're wealthy enough to afford to be able to go to church here."  

There's a lot in that statement that breaks my heart - but there's a lot of truth, too.  There's nothing obviously wrong with that church - they're serving a lot of people - but maybe there's more that they could be doing.

--

When it comes to the 2A community - maybe more than one thing can be true at the same time.

I'm going to explore that a little bit in this post.

1. The NRA as it exists today is doing just fine -  Its membership is as large as it's ever been. It raises more money than it ever has. It has a string of legislative and judicial wins at the local, state, and federal level. As an organization, it is feared by it's opponents, and may be the most effective lobbying group that's ever been. 

When many of us go to the conventions - we see a floor packed with guns and gear. We hear people speak that are talking about things that we care about.  It's probably the furthest thing from most of our minds that most everyone there looks like us. And, that's fine on the surface.

The NRA is doing great.  Why change something that is doing fine? If people don't feel welcome, that's their problem, not mine. I'm welcoming and affirming and tired of people telling me that I'm the problem.

All of the above can be true, and this likely is pretty accurate for most of us.  But, something else can be true, too.

2. The NRA as it exists today isn't going to be enough to see us through the fight that is coming - The conditions on the ground are changing. I'm convinced that we're going to see gun regulation be a more dominant force in our political arena in the next few years than it's ever been. Opponents are mobilized, growing, and increasingly well funded.

The NRA (as a proxy for all of us) is not ready for this coming fight.

We need as many allies as we can get - and what's worked so far - being a culture that's predominantly included white, middle class, generally "conservative" males - isn't going to get us where we need to go.  We're going to need a bigger team.

--

I think a lot of us read stuff about diversity and inclusion - and we're made to feel like we're somehow the problem.  We're tired of being made out to be the problem.

I'd love to redirect our focus a bit.  We all view things through a lens of our experience.  We can't change that.  But, occasionally something comes along to put a scratch on that lens and make us think. 

Let's go back to that church hunting analogy a bit. Many of you who've gone through this process would likely echo feeling something like this.  My family member did wind up at a church where they're happy and engaged.  When talking to her about it, she mentioned that the first Sunday that they were there people went out of their way to make them feel included.  People didn't just introduce themselves, the pastoral staff met them and learned about them. Other kids introduced themselves and showed their kids where to go.  People invited them to lunch after church. They made sure they knew about small groups.

All of this could seem overwhelming - unless you're looking for a community to get engaged in. Then, you see it through a perspective of people going out of their way to make you feel welcome.  That church was fine before this family got there - but when they showed up they went out of their way to make them feel welcome. And now, they're all better for it.

If I were to extend that out to the NRA (again as a proxy for all of us) what does that look like?

Let's say I'm a young Hispanic man here in Nashville, or a single black mother in Memphis who has bought a gun to defend her family, or maybe I'm a dad in government housing who can here gunshots weekly from my stoop as my kids play in the yard. 

Let's say I've joined the NRA to learn more about guns because that wasn't a part of my upbringing. I get a copy of American Rifleman or American Hunter in the mail every month. How do those publications speak to me?

What would those publications look like if they included stuff that was important to the non-white, non-suburban, non middle class male reader?

Off the top of my head:

1. Let's talk Philando Castile - here was a young (black) man who did everything you're supposed to do as a permit holder when engaging with law enforcement.  He notified them of his permit, was respectful, and didn't go anywhere near his gun - and still wound up shot. That's terrifying - and the NRA was silent on it.
2. Let's talk firearm security when a $1000 safe may not be an option
3. Let's talk firearm safety and handling in an environment where people aren't going to look at you crossways just because you're there
4. Let's talk cultural issues where your family and your community may look at you crossways because the only people they know with guns are thugs
5. Let's really open up some channels with law enforcement, and be an advocate, and have some hard conversations about interactions with our members who are terrified that they're going to get shot for something stupid.

A lot of things can be true at the same time in life. As I look at our community of gun owners at large right now - we're as strong as we've ever been. But, that likely isn't strong enough to get us where we need to go next.

America is getting browner.  That is something that many of us welcome and celebrate.  The 2A community of the future can't look like the one of today if we're going to remain as strong in future generations as we have in this past generation.

Maybe the point of this thread isn't necessarily to call us out on doing something wrong - rather it's to start a conversation about how we can be more welcoming - even if at times we go out of our way to do it.

How much stronger would the 2A community be if it were in fact a leader when it comes to inclusion? 

That's the thing. Leaders don't just show up one day with a group that is like, "yeah, I guess we'll follow you." No. Leaders create a space that people want to be involved in - and know that in doing so everyone is better.

 

 

Myself, living in eastern TN (Bradley County) with the neighboring Polk County, I will try very much to be extremely tactful in what I'm about to say. Wikipedia shows that Bradley County is 92.98% white. I'll let you do the math for the other people in Bradley County. As such, going to school I was generally limited in my exposure to other ethnicities, period. Once you consider the percentages of white people in our county, I suspect it is decently easy to extrapolate from that data the percentages of difference races at my employer. I myself attempt very much not to have prejudices against any kind against groups of people, but it is not as easy as simply trying. Due to the general environment and my upbringing, I'll admit that I have certain "biases". It is difficult to rid oneself of such biases.  I think that the majority of people have certain biases, whether it be regarding race, religion, etc.

I say all of this to say (in response to your question). Yes, I've been somewhere I felt that I didn't belong. My Wife and I were flying out of Atlanta, we know almost nothing about Atlanta. As such, we stopped at some Chipotle. As tactful as possible, I will simply say that out of a room of roughly 50 people, my Wife and I were the only white people there. Period. I can honestly say I think this was the first time in my life I had ever experienced something such as that. I firmly believe that some people would have turned around and left. I tried to use it as a learning experience. I wondered if the way I felt at that moment was what it was like to be any of the "other" races in my home county (oftentimes being the only non-white person in any group setting). We ordered and ate, and ultimately had a good time. Most people were friendly and not a single "bad experience", but the feeling was one as if we didn't belong.

We don't want new members to either TGO or the firearm community as a whole to feel that way. Some people here at TGO get that, many do not I fear. To those completely clueless as to what this entire thread is "about", consider the following, all of which are just made up in my head by me.

• A homosexual person showing up into a gun-store for their first time, and then being bombarded with a poster on the wall stating "Marriage = 1 Man + 1 Woman" and overhearing the employees talk about "them faggots". Perhaps that person is there to purchase a firearm to protect their loved ones, knows nothing about firearms, and ultimately leaves because they didn't feel they were welcome.
• Any female that agrees to go to the range with one of their gun-guy guy friends and is in any way belittled over "being a woman" and any of the stereotypes that are typical when it comes to women and firearms.
• A Muslim whom shows up to take his (or her) class to get an HCP but is shown extreme prejudice during the class from the other students.

How likely is it that any of these people dissociate from the firearm community as a whole? There are many people in the firearm community, many of you know someone like this and I fear that some of or members here may themselves be very close to this mindset, that simply do not care if other "groups" of people make their way into the firearm community and are accepted. Well, that is simply hurting the firearm industry as a whole.

 

As a completely different topic, one thing I've been doing over the previous few months is reading articles on "The Root", which describes itself as "Black news, opinions, politics and culture". It has a very liberal bias. I do not agree with many of the articles. However, what is allows me to do is read directly from the source what the "other side" is thinking and feeling. I cannot discredit their thoughts and feelings. It allows me to consider things from their perspective. I have really enjoyed doing so, simply for the reasons stated above.

https://www.theroot.com/

[Links2k]

3 hours ago, CZ9MM said:

This is a large part of an "an issue". Not "the" issue or "this issue" even, but "an issue". I'm 27, I don't know which generation that does or does not make me. I don't really care. I'm not defined by whatever that generation is, but I've been told by numerous people that I'm an "exception" to whatever "my generation" is. Ok, cool I guess, I just wanted to be successful so I've tried to do so over the years. However, know what? It isn't all my doing, in fact it wouldn't be fair in my opinion to say any of it is my doing. I was blessed being born in this country. In the "lottery of life", I could have been born to any third world country without electricity and running water; I doubt I'd be where I were today if that was the case.

I'm not attempting to bring gender or race into this reply, but I will admit that being a white male has likely given me a lot of opportunities as well. Having two parents that are still married helped me out a lot as well. Having parents that were able to purchase a vehicle when I was 16 helped me out a lot. Heck, even learning how to drive helped me out a lot because apparently I've met a several people over the past couple of years that are my age but cannot drive and do not/have not had a driver's license. Their fault? To some extent. But if you were to consider their upbringing and situations, then I think you'd be able to dismiss at least some of it as not being their fault. Try to get a quality job (even with a college degree, as one of their cases) without a drivers license around here.

Sometimes. I still consider myself "younger" at 27 (and am trying to hold on to that feeling for at least another 10 years). A lot of people I've met are indeed blind to many of these differences, but one thing I've noticed is that a seemingly large proportion of these people that are "open-minded" are only "open-minded" to people that agree with them perfectly. As an example, an extremely "open-minded" or "blind to differences" person may be 100% ugly towards a gun owner. Or, I will tread very carefully with the following but how often is it seen "extremely open minded people" that are in support of topics such as homosexual marriage but they lash out towards anyone that doesn't fully support their ideas and call these people bigots, etc?

In my opinion, being open minded isn't a bad thing per se, but it goes beyond being accepting of the "hot topics" such as and not limited to: lgbt, race, religion, gender, etc. Being "open minded" means also accepting the people that may not agree with you on those issues as well. If someone's actions are filled with hate, then I understand not accepting them/their viewpoint. But if the sole issue is that someone isn't "as accepting" as you, don't hate that person just because they don't agree with you.

I won't get into specifics, but over the years we've seen many, many posts and threads that are rather quite anti-gay, pro white, anti-muslim, etc and etc. We don't "need to know" any of those details about a specific member; if any of the members of any of those groups were to join TGO today and find many posts that were "against" them, I don't think it matters whether or not we know those details or not. That person is not going to feel included in our community.

That is also why it is extremely important that the staff here at TGO shut threads like that down ASAP and try to prevent them going in that direction in the first place.

Myself, living in eastern TN (Bradley County) with the neighboring Polk County, I will try very much to be extremely tactful in what I'm about to say. Wikipedia shows that Bradley County is 92.98% white. I'll let you do the math for the other people in Bradley County. As such, going to school I was generally limited in my exposure to other ethnicities, period. Once you consider the percentages of white people in our county, I suspect it is decently easy to extrapolate from that data the percentages of difference races at my employer. I myself attempt very much not to have prejudices against any kind against groups of people, but it is not as easy as simply trying. Due to the general environment and my upbringing, I'll admit that I have certain "biases". It is difficult to rid oneself of such biases.  I think that the majority of people have certain biases, whether it be regarding race, religion, etc.

I say all of this to say (in response to your question). Yes, I've been somewhere I felt that I didn't belong. My Wife and I were flying out of Atlanta, we know almost nothing about Atlanta. As such, we stopped at some Chipotle. As tactful as possible, I will simply say that out of a room of roughly 50 people, my Wife and I were the only white people there. Period. I can honestly say I think this was the first time in my life I had ever experienced something such as that. I firmly believe that some people would have turned around and left. I tried to use it as a learning experience. I wondered if the way I felt at that moment was what it was like to be any of the "other" races in my home county (oftentimes being the only non-white person in any group setting). We ordered and ate, and ultimately had a good time. Most people were friendly and not a single "bad experience", but the feeling was one as if we didn't belong.

We don't want new members to either TGO or the firearm community as a whole to feel that way. Some people here at TGO get that, many do not I fear. To those completely clueless as to what this entire thread is "about", consider the following, all of which are just made up in my head by me.

• A homosexual person showing up into a gun-store for their first time, and then being bombarded with a poster on the wall stating "Marriage = 1 Man + 1 Woman" and overhearing the employees talk about "them faggots". Perhaps that person is there to purchase a firearm to protect their loved ones, knows nothing about firearms, and ultimately leaves because they didn't feel they were welcome.
• Any female that agrees to go to the range with one of their gun-guy guy friends and is in any way belittled over "being a woman" and any of the stereotypes that are typical when it comes to women and firearms.
• A Muslim whom shows up to take his (or her) class to get an HCP but is shown extreme prejudice during the class from the other students.

How likely is it that any of these people dissociate from the firearm community as a whole? There are many people in the firearm community, many of you know someone like this and I fear that some of or members here may themselves be very close to this mindset, that simply do not care if other "groups" of people make their way into the firearm community and are accepted. Well, that is simply hurting the firearm industry as a whole.

 

As a completely different topic, one thing I've been doing over the previous few months is reading articles on "The Root", which describes itself as "Black news, opinions, politics and culture". It has a very liberal bias. I do not agree with many of the articles. However, what is allows me to do is read directly from the source what the "other side" is thinking and feeling. I cannot discredit their thoughts and feelings. It allows me to consider things from their perspective. I have really enjoyed doing so, simply for the reasons stated above.

https://www.theroot.com/

This is easily the best post that I’ve read on TGO.  

Being in my fifties, not a lot matters to me besides keeping my wife happy and attempting to maintain a stress free and peaceful mind.

As for diversity, I realize that it’s difficult to change the mindset of older people unless they have deathbed conversions. It is what it is.

What I’ve seen and love from the youth over my 31 years of being a parent is that they are trying to break the mold.  They are trying to be inclusive. They are trying to be the melting pot that we claim America to be. 

The efforts of the youth aren’t perfect, but their efforts are better than the examples that my generation, and those older than me have set for them. I’ll give an example. My wife and I were fortunate enough, although at great sacrifice  to be able to send our kids to the best private schools in Memphis.  They were in safe Christian environments, and got superior educations. My kids were always a part of a very small handful of minorities. I watched as my son and two daughters had a diverse group of friends in lower and middle school. In high school, my daughters group of friends increased while my son’s group decreased. This is not to point fingers at anyone or make accusations, but the kids that my son had been around his entire life started to make racial slurs and distance themselves from my son.  It seems to them, my son was no different than the riff raff that they heard about everyday at home or on the evening news.  Though all the adversity, my son became an all star football player and a academic super star. 

The following opinion is based upon a small sample size, but based upon my life experiences, and those of other black men that I know. Our lives are a daily stress filled existence that leads to health problems and early death.

Several members have given excellent examples of what it fills like to not feel welcomed in in gun stores and other situations. My favorite story was about the family outing to Chipotle. The feeling that the member had that day is the feeling that I have  everyday.  I don’t walk through life feeling like a victim, but I go out of my way to not be perceived as a threat or stereotyped.  Everyday I’m conscious of my dress, my speech and my body language, and many times that still doesn’t exempt me from being treated poorly. I don’t whine about it. I just put on thicker skin and drive on, because I have young men watching me and I want them to navigate this life with the same strength, confidence and dignity. 

Finally, I’ve been a long time member of the NRA.  I briefly gave up my membership when they labeled the ATF jackbooted thugs. As a government employee I didn’t think it was a good look. I carry my NRA membership card in my wallet daily, and I read The American Rifleman magazine that comes with my membership. That being said, I never feel like I’m the demographic that the NRA caters to.  I view the NRA in the same way that I view labor unions. They are both necessary evils. The fundraising scare tactics are ridiculous, and get worse every election cycle.  The one positive thing I can say about the NRA is that based upon the paranoia that I witness from many gun owners, they are getting their message across to those people they are trying to reach. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by LINKS2K

[TGO David]

On 7/3/2018 at 11:47 AM, LINKS2K said:

This is easily the best post that I’ve read on TGO.  

Being in my fifties, not a lot matters to me besides keeping my wife happy and attempting to maintain a stress free and peaceful mind.

[...]

Well, sir... make it two great posts that I've read on TGO now.

You have my utmost respect.

 

[Erik88]

Stumbled across a relevant article worth sharing.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/07/piper-smith/why-demographic-specific-outreach-is-important-for-expanding-gun-rights/

[TGO David]

39 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Stumbled across a relevant article worth sharing.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/07/piper-smith/why-demographic-specific-outreach-is-important-for-expanding-gun-rights/

That's a really good article.  The bit about political inclinations is still a hard pill for me to swallow, but overall it is a good reminder to take a breath, listen, make your case, and then be patient.

This quote resonated with me on the heels of this thread:

Be mindful of how ostracizing hyper-partisan rhetoric can be, and do your best to control, temper, and orient yourself on social media and in person

[Chucktshoes]

3 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Stumbled across a relevant article worth sharing.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/07/piper-smith/why-demographic-specific-outreach-is-important-for-expanding-gun-rights/

Excellent find!

[n0rlf]

Thought it over. Changed my thoughts. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by n0rlf
Posted to quickly