Non-Permissive Environments and Improvised Weapons

[TGO David]

 

This week I will be recording a new episode of the Shooters Nation Podcast and once again will be sitting down with Ian Strimbeck of Runenation LLC.  You may remember Ian from a previous episode with him where we talked about being the Multi-Disciplinary Tactician as an armed citizen.

Well, this time we are going to talk about Non-Permissive Environments and Improvised Weapons and I'm curious...

 

What questions would you like for me to ask Ian?

 

When I think about a non-permissive environment, several places come to mind:

• Workplaces
• Schools
• Courtrooms
• Government Buildings

 

[RED333]

36 minutes ago, TGO David said:

Improvised Weapons 

This, pens and other stabing stuff are for close in fighting. Clubs are still to close when the other guy has a gun. 

[Ronald_55]

Are 'tactical' pens really worth anything in a fight?

Thoughts on the "bulletproof" backpack panels, folios and clipboards?

[Whisper]

I'm confident a tactical pen would be better than nothing in a fight, but carrying them is problematic.  I say this as someone who flew routinely to unpleasant countries until just a few years ago.  Any place you'd want to have them, the people running metal detectors and wands know what they are and will confiscate them.  It doesn't help that almost all the manufacturers foolishly try to make them look as threatening as possible.   A Zero F-701, which is a real pen and made of stainless steel, should be as good a weapon as any tactical pen, and if it gets confiscated by airport guards in Dirkadirkastan you're out only $9.

I have no experience with the bulletproof backpack panels and folios, but I know of no one other than manufacturers who suggests that they have any value.  I'd be interested to read some third-party assessments, if any exist.

Cheers,

Whisper

[tntnixon]

42 minutes ago, Ronald_55 said:

Are 'tactical' pens really worth anything in a fight?

Thoughts on the "bulletproof" backpack panels, folios and clipboards?

A Viking shield wall might be effective with them . Other than that , prolly of little use.

[MacGyver]

The F-701 may not be as “bulletproof” as all the cool kid pens. But, it’s $4.99 at the Walmarts, won’t ever get confiscated, will perform as well as any of them should you need it, and it writes pretty well to boot.

It’s was my go to for years until I turned down a couple of nice titanium core, cocobolo skinned ones that will take my favorite Pilot Hi-Tec-C refills.

I know plenty of folks who have expensive Chris Reeves or similar pens in their desks. All of them go for the Zebra when we’re in the field.

I’d love to hear another pro’s thoughts on the personal survival gear you carry on your person.   

[tntnixon]

Somebody needs to work with these kids on their technique. Maybe R. Lee Ermey could get them into battle shape.

[tntnixon]

In all seriousness, it seems like the best tactics involve getting yourself out of that environment as soon as possible, assuming there’s an armed perpetrator and you are unarmed. So I’d like to hear more about escape tactics vs entering into the fight. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

7 hours ago, Whisper said:

I'm confident a tactical pen would be better than nothing in a fight, but carrying them is problematic.  I say this as someone who flew routinely to unpleasant countries until just a few years ago.  Any place you'd want to have them, the people running metal detectors and wands know what they are and will confiscate them.  It doesn't help that almost all the manufacturers foolishly try to make them look as threatening as possible.   A Zero F-701, which is a real pen and made of stainless steel, should be as good a weapon as any tactical pen, and if it gets confiscated by airport guards in Dirkadirkastan you're out only $9.

I have no experience with the bulletproof backpack panels and folios, but I know of no one other than manufacturers who suggests that they have any value.  I'd be interested to read some third-party assessments, if any exist.

Cheers,

Whisper

I usually fly with a Tuff Writer Click Pen and several Zebra 701s. NO one looks twice at a pen that looks like a pen... especially if it goes through the magnetometer clipped into in the spiral binding of your notebook....EVERYONE knows what your "tactical pen" with needles , razor blades, and para cord clipped in your pocket is .....

 

The big thing is to just look and act normal. If you roll to the mall looking like a displaced Blackwater contractor then guess what? You got what you probably secretly wanted. ALL the tough guys (and security) see you and are taking a mental inventory of you.....on the other hand the REAL smart tough guys don't draw any attention to themselves because they dress normal and act normal and don't do things to draw attention....same thing at the TSA checkpoint. If you look like you are pining for the good old days in the green zone then you're gonna get a lot more scrutiny than the "normal" clean cut looking dude in the clean polo shirt and normal "non tactical" pants without a mountain of tattoos showing . That's just reality. 

 

As to using them, the Zebra and Tuff Writer pens are unlikely to break and used as "hammerfist helper" they can be very effective and so can the metal bodied "magnum" markers as can a light like a Surefire G2 or P6. But for pete's sake don't show up with some crenelated bezel monstrosity that looks like something out of Game of Thrones. One , it is gonna get confiscated, and Two, it just isn't needed. I guarantee I can open up a cut on ANYONE with a smash to the face with a standard bezel surefire 6p, G2 , Streamlight Scorpion, or any other "standard light". And besides, blunt trauma does all the heavy lifting. If they seriously NEED to be hit then I'd much rather give them a depressed skull fracture than a superficial cut.......or "collect their DNA" or other such silliness.... 

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

I usually fly with a Tuff Writer Click Pen and several Zebra 701s. NO one looks twice at a pen that looks like a pen... especially if it goes through the magnetometer clipped into in the spiral binding of your notebook....EVERYONE knows what your "tactical pen" with needles , razor blades, and para cord clipped in your pocket is .....

 

The big thing is to just look and act normal. If you roll to the mall looking like a displaced Blackwater contractor then guess what? You got what you probably secretly wanted. ALL the tough guys (and security) see you and are taking a mental inventory of you.....on the other hand the REAL smart tough guys don't draw any attention to themselves because they dress normal and act normal and don't do things to draw attention....same thing at the TSA checkpoint. If you look like you are pining for the good old days in the green zone then you're gonna get a lot more scrutiny than the "normal" clean cut looking dude in the clean polo shirt and normal "non tactical" pants without a mountain of tattoos showing . That's just reality. 

 

As to using them, the Zebra and Tuff Writer pens are unlikely to break and used as "hammerfist helper" they can be very effective and so can the metal bodied "magnum" markers as can a light like a Surefire G2 or P6. But for pete's sake don't show up with some crenelated bezel monstrosity that looks like something out of Game of Thrones. One , it is gonna get confiscated, and Two, it just isn't needed. I guarantee I can open up a cut on ANYONE with a smash to the face with a standard bezel surefire 6p, G2 , Streamlight Scorpion, or any other "standard light". And besides, blunt trauma does all the heavy lifting. If they seriously NEED to be hit then I'd much rather give them a depressed skull fracture than a superficial cut.......or "collect their DNA" or other such silliness.... 

I had no idea that some of these pens were advertising “DNA collection” as a feature until a well meaning friend asked me how he should best employ it.  

I was at a loss.  

I just told him that if the need arose to go all stabby, the DNA would collect itself.  

[A.J. Holst]

I carry a Boker Tactical, macarta body with aluminum end caps.

Takes most refills, I like the Fisher space age technology. Writes well on most any surface.

This particular pen has flown with me and entered metal detecting NPEs via visual inspection in the little basket.

While I won't do it again, it was in a shirt pocket going through TYS, friendly agent had me remove it and I clicked it, demonstrating it's a pen.

Tactically, stabbing someone with a pen strikes me as even more brutal than a knife fight.

Better than nothing and a great pen has multiple uses.

[mikegideon]

I have a Hinderer Investigator. It's pretty small, but will punch thru a skull. Also Fisher space innards. I have been thinking about getting the larger Hinderer.

[TGO David]

So...

Questions you want me to ask Ian? 

 

[KahrMan]

How and when do you decide if it is best to improvise a weapon and fight or hide and barricade yourself somewhere safe?

[Ahitchc4]

Maybe briefly mention not being able to consume alcohol at restaurants while carrying. I’m sure a lot of people frequently leave their weapon at home or in the car because they’d like to have a beer at dinner.

[mikegideon]

1 hour ago, KahrMan said:

How and when do you decide if it is best to improvise a weapon and fight or hide and barricade yourself somewhere safe?

I'm most likely not gonna poke anybody in the skull with a Hinderer pen unless they are on me. 

[Ronald_55]

11 hours ago, TGO David said:

So...

Questions you want me to ask Ian? 

 

Oh, forgot one. Tyr or Thor? 

[Defender]

I have a few of the "tactical" pens, and currently carry one from 5.11.  This one looks a little less tactical and also seems better suited for actual use as well.  I worry about it being confiscated by TSA though.  I couldnt take it into the social security office, and that was ok as i just took it back to the car, but it was expensive enough to not want to give it up.  Ive heard that if I mixed it in with other poens in a briefcase or bag, then they wouldnt catch it, but I hate to take a chance...any ideas?  Also, what is their policy on flashlights?  I could carry a tactical flashlight instead.

[A.J. Holst]

13 hours ago, TGO David said:

So...

Questions you want me to ask Ian? 

 

Aside from your keys and a pen, what other innocuous items can be carried on your person.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Gotthegoods

[tntnixon]

Will cans of whoop ass pass through a metal detector and if so, will it be conviscated ?

[TGO David]

13 hours ago, Ahitchc4 said:

Maybe briefly mention not being able to consume alcohol at restaurants while carrying. I’m sure a lot of people frequently leave their weapon at home or in the car because they’d like to have a beer at dinner.

I wonder if this is a restriction per-State or if all States do it the same.  I don't want to assume.

 

1 hour ago, Gotthegoods said:

Aside from your keys and a pen, what other innocuous items can be carried on your person.

Good idea!

 

1 hour ago, tntnixon said:

Will cans of whoop ass pass through a metal detector and if so, will it be conviscated ?

Hahahaha I'll see if we can work that in.

 

[MacGyver]

It's probably worth talking about kubatons and monkey fists briefly.  

I'm seeing an increasing number of "keychains" that are really fancy brass knuckles - like these: http://www.kochtools.us/product/the-solo-2-0-stainless-titanium  

I've got my own opinions - but I'd love to hear others.

[Chucktshoes]

27 minutes ago, TGO David said:

I wonder if this is a restriction per-State or if all States do it the same.  I don't want to assume.

This actually does vary by state. That might have its own interesting implications. 

[Erik88]

1 hour ago, Chucktshoes said:

This actually does vary by state. That might have its own interesting implications. 

Yep. When I lived in Florida is wasn't illegal to "drink" while carrying. You just couldn't be "drunk". You also couldn't do it in the bar area. Very odd honestly. 

 

[Chucktshoes]

4 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Yep. When I lived in Florida is wasn't illegal to "drink" while carrying. You just couldn't be "drunk". You also couldn't do it in the bar area. Very odd honestly. 

 

My guess is the thinking goes something like this. 

When carrying a firearm:

Having a drink with a meal- ok

Being drunk- not ok

Drinking for the purpose of drinking - not ok

If you are in a bar/lounge/primary drinking establishments- you are there to drink - so not ok. 

 

TN doesn’t differentiate a bar from a restaurant, so we can’t make that type of distinction.