Karl Rehn (KR Training) Red Dot Study

[Jamie Jackson]

I must live under a rock!

I recently learned of this study from a Mike Seeklander podcast interviewing Karl Rehn. I've done some "short block" training with Mr.Rehn at a couple of Tac Con's years ago. Very sharp guy. Mr. Rehn is an engineer by trade and a very analytical gentleman. He runs KR Training in Texas and holds GM rating in multiple categories.  He's an excellent teacher and instructor.

I have been considering a RDS system for my handguns as old age in no longer creeping, but running rapidly straight at me!

I've been reading what I could from knowledgeable and trusted sources. Generally the advice is to put in the work and the RDS system will preform.

Most seem to agree that MRDS systems improve distance shooting, and from my very limited experience this is so in my case. But we all know it's the first accurate hit on the attacker that counts. "Attacker" implies that we must recognize the threat, react accordingly, draw our handgun, and lawfully and accurately engage. 

Finding the Red dot in the window, at close range, rapidly... that appears to be a challenge for many. Again, dedication and practice...lots and lots of dry fire practice is recommended. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

What surprised me from Mr.Rehn's study, several things actually, but that a green laser worked out to be faster and more repeatable within his parameters. Interesting indeed.

I've only considered a Trijicon MRDS at this point but I would appreciate any input, knowledge, and experience of the members here. I am exploring my options.

I've included links to a few writings and sites I've mentioned above or have listened to interviews with. 

 

 

Red Dot Study: http://blog.krtraining.com/red-dot-study-key-points/

Modern Sumurai Project / Scott Jedlinski aka Jedi: http://www.modernsamuraiproject.com/

Aaron Cowan (Sage Dynamics): MRDS Systems for Duty Handgun Use (aka Cowan's White paper): http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7dc128_50a7c57f2d284e53bca8584a7f7925b1.pdf

[Jamie Jackson]

@Cruel Hand Luke

You are a knowledgeable gentleman on this topic. I know you're busy, but your thoughts would be appreciated, when time allows.

[deerslayer]

I have been shooting a red dot sight in USPSA matches for about 10 months.  That's not the same as a defensive gun, but it's not much different.  Dry fire repetition is definitely critical to develop a natural index/point of aim.  This is true for every gun, but especially so for dot sights.  Inside 12 yards or so, I am still faster with iron sights.  The red dot is easier to shoot at speed past that though.  I've shot a Trijicon, but I have a Leupold Delta Point Pro with the 7.5 triangle.  

Last year at a match, I learned why I will never carry one.  The temperature was about 75 and it was very muggy and the sight fogged up as soon as I took it out of my range bag.  It was useless for a couple minutes.  Getting out of a car into a high humidity environment could make for a bad day if you needed the gun quickly.  

[Cruel Hand Luke]

On 3/26/2018 at 12:43 PM, prag said:

@Cruel Hand Luke

You are a knowledgeable gentleman on this topic. I know you're busy, but your thoughts would be appreciated, when time allows.

I really just fake it...I don't know that much....

As mentioned before it takes some work to get used to getting the gun up in your eye line like you are making a a precise shot at distance. That is the key to getting on the dot quicker.  That way you essentially find the sights and switch focus to the dot because if the dot is sitting on top of the front sight it is pretty easy to find.

Is it slower to use the dot at 3 to  5 yards? Yes... but so is using the sights in a picture perfect sight picture too. I use Alternative Indexing Methods at that distance with either irons or dots (or rifles pistols shotguns or subguns). I don't need to see a dot to shoot a palm sized target at 3 to 5 yards. I can use the frame of the RMR or the corner of the slide (or several other super secret ninja techniques) to get the gun aligned without having to find the dot in the window. 

Can the environment cause issues like rain on the window ? Yes. I have not yet had one fog up from temp variance so that is an interesting thing to ponder. I guess if my Oakleys can fog up walking out of the air conditioned house on a scorching hot day then a RMR theoretically could ....so hopefully I won't get in a gunfight first thing in the morning in my driveway......  

If the likely engagement distance is going to be 5 yards and closer then the red dot does little to nothing for you....unless you use them like I do to snipe flies.... If you plan to be useful on the back side of 15 yards with precision bullet placement then the red dot makes that way easier. Everything is a compromise. Irons are faster up close red dot is faster at distance. You just have to get used to finding the dot....or used to working around it.   

[Jamie Jackson]

Thank you gentlemen for the excellent input and food for thought!

Randy, I thoroughly agree that Alternative Indexing Methods, especially as you teach, at the appropriate distance, is an solid consideration. Actually a necessity.

In one of the interviews with Mr. Rehn he mentions being in contact with one of the manufacturers and suggesting the produce a reticle similar to that used in the EOTech sights as the larger circle would allow a more rapid acquisition of the smaller center dot when engaging close range targets rapidly.

@deerslayer makes some good points regarding the potential for the RDS to fog. I've read various suggestions to mitigate this, but it may simply be the technology just isn't quite "there" yet...

Distance and sight visualization is my greatest challenge with the current state of my aging eyes. Yet I can't foresee many scenarios  where a distance greater than 25 yards would be applicable to me...certainly some, but that are very specific and few. The 3-5 yards that Tom Givens and Claude Werner often cite is obviously the primary consideration in a self defense context.

 

[miller_man]

1 hour ago, prag said:

 but it may simply be the technology just isn't quite "there" yet...

 

 

This is where I think we are at with slide mounted red dots. I look forward to when we are there though.

[ehull20000]

I’m no expert, but the Active Self Protection account on YouTube shows alot of shootings and very few are a drag race to the draw.  Many are shooting around innocent bystanders.

With my RMR I can keep up with anyone in the draw and usually I can shoot better beyond 7 yards.  I have to practice regularly to do this though.  

 

[Jamie Jackson]

John Correia and his ASP (Active Self Protection) YT channel is an excellent resource and quite the reality check as well. 

 

 

 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

And John's a solid dude too. I met him at the Rangemaster Instructor Reunion in Athens GA a couple of weeks back and on a personal level I like him a lot.  And appropriately enough for this thread  he carried a HK VP9 with Red Dot. At the Reunion he did a presentation on the 21 things he has learned from watching all those gunfights on video and while it is "common sense" it was good to see someone who has done the research validate that.