School board members

[JT59]

We will see more attempts by gun control groups and others to use school walkouts. Some school systems have stated that they allowed, but did not endorse this activity. I think we all know this is BS.

Contact the members of your local school board and ask each of them why they allowed this political stunt to occur at school.  Keep track of where they stand on this when it is time for school board elections.

[tacops]

Allowance is endorsement.

[MacGyver]

Like it or not, the right to gather and protest is in fact protected by our Constitution.  

You can’t support one without supporting the rest.  

[n0rlf]

28 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Like it or not, the right to gather and protest is in fact protected by our Constitution.  

You can’t support one without supporting the rest.  

When it comes to children I disagree. If they want to be heard they should follow rules for it just like adults or be prepared for the consequences. 

[MacGyver]

43 minutes ago, n0rlf said:

When it comes to children I disagree. If they want to be heard they should follow rules for it just like adults or be prepared for the consequences. 

We’re all entitled to our opinions, but in this case the Constitution disagrees with you.

The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment extends civil rights to minors.  

The Supreme Court upheld this view in a landmark 1967 case  In re Gault.

A few years later(1969), the court ruled in Tinker v. Des Moines Independent School District supporting the same.  This case may be of particular interest regarding current events.

Link here if you’re so inclined:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_District

 

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

Like it or not, the right to gather and protest is in fact protected by our Constitution.  

You can’t support one without supporting the rest.  

Absolutely it is, but it isn't guaranteed to be without repercussions. I can't walk out of my job to go protest without being reprimanded or fired. Walking out of school to protest should come with punishment as well. To every thing there is a season. Protest on the weekends or at night.

[i1afli]

8 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment extends civil rights to minors.  

The Supreme Court upheld this view in a landmark 1967 case  In re Gault.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_District

 

Seems like quite a stretch to say that the right to assemble/gather or free speech means that a child can walk out of school whenever they want to “express themselves”. Your citatations deal with forms of expression while attending school or school-related events...nothing about a “right” to leave school whenever, which essentially means they’re excused from school.

[Chucktshoes]

2 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Absolutely it is, but it isn't guaranteed to be without repercussions. I can't walk out of my job to go protest without being reprimanded or fired. Walking out of school to protest should come with punishment as well. To every thing there is a season. Protest on the weekends or at night.

By the nature of how they are organized, schools are an arm of the government and bound by the same rules. Your employer doesn’t have to play by those rules because it is a private entity. 

[MacGyver]

12 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Absolutely it is, but it isn't guaranteed to be without repercussions. I can't walk out of my job to go protest without being reprimanded or fired. Walking out of school to protest should come with punishment as well. To every thing there is a season. Protest on the weekends or at night.

I think history shows us that cases like this are as much about the response as they are the act.

i would say it’s tricky.

In acts of civil disobedience, it’s rarely the act itself that gets noticed. Rather, it’s the (often) disproportionate response that gets attention. 

Would we know about Selma to Montgomery March had it not been for the Edmund Pettis Bridge? 

Would the Birmingham Movement have led to the mass protests that finally ushered in the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act had they not arrested King resulting in a Letter from Birmingham Jail?

What if the students at Fisk here in Nashville had just followed the rules and avoided the lunch counters that were closed to them?

What if we had just let these students walk out in a pseudo-organized fashion and then moved on and gotten back to class? Would the issue still be in the news? It’s hard to say?

But, a bunch of students locking arms in detention is only furthering the press coverage - especially when someone delivers a truck full of pizza.  

[Omega]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

We’re all entitled to our opinions, but in this case the Constitution disagrees with you.

The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment extends civil rights to minors.  

The Supreme Court upheld this view in a landmark 1967 case  In re Gault.

A few years later(1969), the court ruled in Tinker v. Des Moines Independent School District supporting the same.  This case may be of particular interest regarding current events.

Link here if you’re so inclined:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_District

 

This is also a good read, and holds that in some cases the school may restrict speech. And in fact, mentions your case as well.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17128657354823960354&q=Morse+v.+Frederick,+2007&hl=en&as_sdt=6,43&as_vis=1

Quote

Excerpts::

In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 89 S.Ct. 733, 21 L.Ed.2d 731, the Court declared, in holding that a policy prohibiting high school students from wearing antiwar armbands violated the First Amendment, id., at 504, 89 S.Ct. 733, that student expression may not be suppressed unless school officials reasonably conclude that it will "materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school,"

(c) A principal may, consistent with the First Amendment, restrict student speech at a school event, when that speech is reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use. In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 89 S.Ct. 733, 21 L.Ed.2d 731, the Court declared, in holding that a policy prohibiting high school students from wearing antiwar armbands violated the First Amendment, id., at 504, 89 S.Ct. 733, that student expression may not be suppressed unless school officials reasonably conclude that it will "materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school," id., at 513, 89 S.Ct. 733. The Court in Bethel School Dist. No. 403 v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675, 106 S.Ct. 3159, 92 L.Ed.2d 549, however, upheld the suspension of a student who delivered a high school assembly speech employing "an elaborate, graphic, and explicit sexual metaphor," 2621*2621 id., at 678, 106 S.Ct. 3159. Analyzing the case under Tinker, the lower courts had found no disruption, and therefore no basis for discipline. 478 U.S., at 679-680, 106 S.Ct. 3159. This Court reversed, holding that the school was "within its permissible authority in imposing sanctions... in response to [the student's] offensively lewd and indecent speech." Id., at 685, 106 S.Ct. 3159. Two basic principles may be distilled from Fraser. First, it demonstrates that "the constitutional rights of students in public school are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings." Id., at 682, 106 S.Ct. 3159. Had Fraser delivered the same speech in a public forum outside the school context, he would have been protected. See id., at 682-683, 106 S.Ct. 3159. In school, however, his First Amendment rights were circumscribed "in light of the special characteristics of the school environment." Tinker, supra, at 506, 89 S.Ct. 733. Second, Fraser established that Tinker's mode of analysis is not absolute, since the Fraser Court did not conduct the "substantial disruption" analysis. Subsequently, the Court has held in the Fourth Amendment context that "while children assuredly do not `shed their constitutional rights ... at the schoolhouse gate,' ... the nature of those rights is what is appropriate for children in school," 

 

[DaveTN]

Quote

 

The student voices in the Parkland movement also call to mind the circumstances around the landmark 1969 Supreme Court decision Tinker v. Des Moines Independent School District, which also involved teens, schools and the freedom to protest.

In that case, the court considered a 1965 protest in which five students wore black armbands — one of which is on display at the Newseum, in Washington, D.C. — to protest the Vietnam War. Three older students were suspended by school authorities for defying instructions not to wear the armbands. Their parents filed a lawsuit and the Supreme Court found that this was a violation of the students’ First Amendment rights. Justice Abe Fortas wrote that neither students nor teachers “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.”

But here’s an early caution to those planning school walkouts and protests on school grounds: The Tinker decision and later court cases also ruled that while students have First Amendment rights, they are not as extensive as those enjoyed by adults. Their free expression rights can be curtailed by school officials if they can prove that the student action would “materially and substantially interfere” with education in the school, or interfere with the rights of others. In Tinker, the Supreme Court found that the three armband-wearing students could not be punished by school authorities, because their silent protest did not significantly disrupt education in the school.

http://www.newseum.org/2018/02/22/school-walkouts-in-the-wake-of-parkland-protected-by-the-first-amendment-or-not/

 

You can’t do whatever you want and call it a 1st amendment right. It’s good to see the kids involved; this may be a learning experience for them.

I could not care less if the kids want to protest my right to have a gun; it will have zero impact. But I find it despicable that adults would use the kids for this agenda.

[peejman]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

I find it despicable that adults would use the kids for this agenda

That's the worst part. A lot of these kids are being used a pawns to further an agenda they don't fully understand. I'm sure many of them will learn a great deal from this experience, but it will take years for them to grasp the extent of the exploitation they're subject to.  

Edited March 21, 2018 by peejman

[Someotherguy]

While I believe that it is a good thing for our youth to be exercising their constitutional rights(maybe some of them will actually read the bill of rights lol), I don't think the majority of them are doing this for the sake of the cause, they are doing it so they can get out of class..

 

I also agree with davetn that these kids are being used by the leftists to further gun control efforts..The leftists don't give two ####s about the true safety of the kids..

[Ugly]

We do know that these walkouts were organized and financed by anti gun groups. 

Because of that, I don't think a single one should be authorized or tolerated. 

http://www.gopusa.com/gun-control-groups-and-leftist-leaders-behind-student-led-protests/

 

[n0rlf]

I ain't no lawyer and have not stayed at a Holiday inn Express ever. But I know a bunch of kids that need to hear the truth and bee held to a decent standard of behavior when I see them. The left liberals are teaching them all this crap and it is an agenda. Removed God, added ogbtabcz. Teaching hate while blaming the conservatives for it. Time for the retaking of the institutions that are charged with teaching our children. Don't like that, don't like where we want our country to go, well please feel free to leave. No more shall we have in, from henceforth we are taking this land back. 

Perhaps that is what some need to hear. Kids are just that, kids. Walking out of school is not to be condoned. Get together in the proper time at the proper place yes, telling them walking out of school just teachers them they can ignore rules. Just like the protesters that block streets, we do not care that you protest, hell, we might even agree, but it is where you choose to do so that is the issue. 

Enough is enough, stand up now or pay the price later. 

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, n0rlf said:

The left liberals are teaching them all this crap and it is an agenda. Removed God, added ogbtabcz. Teaching hate while blaming the conservatives for it. Time for the retaking of the institutions that are charged with teaching our children. 

I know that this is a common refrain, but have you been in a school lately? Even say in the last 30 years?

I'm in one every morning. I walk my kids into school everyday for two reasons. One, they're young and will only tolerate this for so long - so I'm going to take advantage of it while I can. But two, it's important to me to be able to put eyes on what's happening in that school each morning.

My wife works at our neighborhood school - a public school in Nashville.  Mind you, ours is a more affluent neighborhood, but the school is representative of others I've been in.

As to the "left liberals teaching them all this crap", I just don't see it. At the ground level, these teachers don't get the most basic level of support from the district to get enough paper and pencils - they're not organized enough to push a larger agenda. But at a more personal level, these teachers approximate society at large in their political preferences - you've got some who are on the more conservative end of the spectrum - you've got some that lean more towards the progressive end of things. 

They don't have the time in their day to interject some nefarious agenda. They just want to get everyone reading at grade level - and that's a heavy ask when kids bring so much other junk into the classroom with them these days.

Now, the older they get - sure, they're likely to be exposed to opposing ideas. There was a time when we encouraged or even celebrated this. It's that process that turned out adults who could think for themselves. I could argue that there are plenty of people who get nervous these days with their kids being introduced to differing ideas because they're afraid or unable to defend the systems they've built. I belong to a fairly conservative religious tradition, but I'm not afraid that my kids' faiths will be destroyed because they suddenly hear the word evolution. You shouldn't have to turn off half of your brain to go to church. 

But, for those that want to avoid these discussions at large, there's always homeschool or a variety of private options.

Once you graduate high school and go to college - yes, the spectrum does trend more towards the left in some disciplines. While there are still a variety of voices on any college campus - the louder progressive voices today are overrepresented on college campuses. I think this is probably a feature that has worked to conservatives advantage at the polls, but for the sake of this argument - I hope that by the time my kids go to college, I've raised them to be able to listen to a variety of thoughts critically without offense and use the tools we've given them to make good decisions about their own beliefs.

I'm certain some of those beliefs will diverge from mine - and that's okay.

[Raoul]

Well said Mac. As the husband of a teacher I find most of the comments here emblematic of folks taking a position without having the facts.

What with the SOL requirements, the crowded classrooms, and the way teachers are micromanaged by everyone from the US Dept of Ed, to the TN Dept of Ed, and so on, most of the crap I'm hearing spouted is not based in fact.

Now let the hating begin

[MacGyver]

7 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

While there are still a variety of voices on any college campus - the louder progressive voices today are overrepresented on college campuses. I think this is probably a feature that has worked to conservatives advantage at the polls...

For those who are interested in this topic, I cannot recommend The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt enough:

https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Mind-Divided-Politics-Religion/dp/0307455777/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521639584&sr=8-1&keywords=the+righteous+mind

It's a pretty heavy read, but worth it. My favorite comment on this book was by a friend who said that it was the best book they've ever read - and that they hope to never pick it up again.

It's got a lot of data - and is pretty illustrative when looking at our political discourse today. 

 

[DWARREN123]

Let them protest but do it on their own time. No where does it say you can protest on someone else's time!

[n0rlf]

Yes I have been in schools, for the last 30 years I have seen myself, my spouse, my children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, and friends children work their way through the schools. I have seen abuses on levels that would make you cringe. I can even show you TV stories on some of them. Kids bullied for their beliefs by both students and teachers. Administrations that are obviously biased in both directions.

I have rewritten this several times and finally have decided not to get into it as we all know how that ended last time. So feel free to live in your world and I will continue to get the sheep glasses. Funny how I have never had a sheep go back though after being shown reality is not what the media and schools portend it to be. 

So yes you and I disagree. However I am speaking from reality not books or what I think it is, I have been there done that, served my country, parented my kids, and live a good clean moral and ethical life. More people should do that these days.

[Omega]

One thing I learned in life is "Perception is Reality" to many, me included.  I've had my share of left leaning teachers, not all, but many.  But while they tend to gravatate to the profession and pass on their beliefs to the students, unintentionally or on purpose, the majority of the problem I think is with those that set curiculum and policy.  Many times I've seen schools do things that are really far left, such as this whole anti-gun protest thing.  Imagine how schools would react if the kids wanted to protest say, planned parenthood, or the NFA?

[Raoul]

4 minutes ago, Omega said:

One thing I learned in life is "Perception is Reality" to many, me included.  I've had my share of left leaning teachers, not all, but many.  But while they tend to gravatate to the profession and pass on their beliefs to the students, unintentionally or on purpose, the majority of the problem I think is with those that set curiculum and policy.  Many times I've seen schools do things that are really far left, such as this whole anti-gun protest thing.  Imagine how schools would react if the kids wanted to protest say, planned parenthood, or the NFA?

Well I'll just say one would have to be an optimist to teach someone like myself and most lefties are much more positive than I am.

[bersaguy]

OK, since I did not pay a whole lot of attention to the children walking out but I do have one question? Did the children walk out of the schools at all grade levels from 1st grade thru 12th grade or was there a certain grade level to which walked out?

[MacGyver]

In my youngest two's school (Elementary) - there were no walkouts - it was a normal class day.

In my oldest's middle school - it was uncoordinated (and largely uncommunicated). From what I can tell, the admin had a conversation about how to allow for it while still keeping students safe. Teachers communicated that plan to students who were inclined to participate. For those that did (and didn't) - at least in my child's class they did a writing exercise on protest and their experience afterwards to turn the experience into a learning opportunity.

To my knowledge, a school would be in legal gray areas at both ends of the spectrum - either requiring students to participate in political speech - or restricting them from such.  I'm sure one can find examples of less informed administrations going both ways.

[Grunt67]

17 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Like it or not, the right to gather and protest is in fact protected by our Constitution.  

You can’t support one without supporting the rest.  

Mac, I think we can all agree the "right" to protest is Constitutional. However, just because you have the right to do something, does not necessarily mean you are required to do it or is it a good idea.

If you look back to the aftermath of the Fla. shootings, the media were doing the usual interviews with survivors & witnesses, how many they actually interviewed & the ones they chose to broadcast may not be the same. The media is left/anti gun biased as we know. Seems the media may have manipulated the situation, and it took a life of it's own.

This may sound a bit like a black helicopter overhead, but how many kids walked out prior to the interviews?

JMHO, food for thought.......