Reloading 7.62X51 "MEN16" Brass?

[Six &Twenty]

Looking for a little 'baseline' info.

I am not 'new' to reloading, but something I thought would be a walk in the park now has me seeking advice.  I picked up a boat-load of German (MEN) 7.62 which has proven reliable in my FAL.  I've been chasing the brass around for a while now and figured I'd re-load some.  Got another deal on Hornady 155 gn BTHP from Midway, and I was enthusiastic about this particular bullet as it has a cannalure exactly where it should be and these are destined for the FAL, a good solid crimp seems prudent... and it was really inexpensive.  Looked up some load data for 155 gr bullets to select a powder and settled on Hodgdon BL-C (2). Hodgdon data recommends a 45 gr starting load with a maximum of 48 gr.

Now it gets interesting.  Brass was de-capped full length re-sized using a Lee .308 Winchester die, and tumbled for a day. MEN does not appear to stake in primers so I did not need to mess with primer pockets.  I seated Winchester WLR Standard Large Rifle primers.  I dropped my first charge in the case (45 gr) and it was REALLY close to the neck.  Puzzled, I threw a 48 gr charge and put this in a second case.  This was well into the neck of the case... there is no way this is gonna work! I checked calibration on my digital scale and it's perfect.   I did a little looking around on the internet and discovered that 7.62 brass is 'typically' thicker and may have a heaver 'web' than .308.  I have not attempted to do a case volume measurement, I've never messed with this before. 

I am assuming (and you know what that means) the MEN cases are markedly smaller internally than the Winchester brass used to produce the Hodgdon data.  From what I am 'observing, it looks to me like 45 grs is going to be about max without compressing, and there is no way I want to start compressing a ball powder!  With bullet at the cannalure, LOA will be exactly 2.80 inches.

So the question here, is how far back should I go to select a 'starting' charge.  My gut is telling me maybe 42 gr, and work up in half grs from there.

Any thoughts??

Edited March 8, 2018 by Six &Twenty
typo

[Raoul]

Why won't it work. I checked several other powders a that charge doesn't seem out of line.

[Six &Twenty]

Perhaps I'm just a little creeped out.  This is my fist pass at a 'small bore', I have worked up loads for 35 Whelen, 458 Win Mag, and both smokeless and black powder 45/70. I am used to 'stick' powders and have no experience with ball powders (in rifle cartridges)  The Black Powder 45/70 loads are compressed as 'standard procedure', I actually have a special compression die for this operation, and I drop BP charges through a 24 inch drop tube... but there seems to be no 'space' in the BL-C (2) to accommodate compression.  I vibrated the cases and it did not seem to lower the powder column at all. Just hoping someone else may have faced the same dilemma...

 

[Raoul]

Have you actually seated a bullet?

[Six &Twenty]

Seated 5ea 45 gr and 5ea 46 gr, and then started going a bit sideways - thinking about the situation.  Both charges seemed to accept the bullet without odd or noticeable 'resistance' but I just do not like how this is working out...

[Raoul]

I'll check my load on 308 tomorrow. Its too late to head to the shop now. Sendme a pm to remind me if you don't mind. I have to bury my brother this week and I'm somewhat preoccupied.....

[Sunfish]

    I have worked with .308 and tried a bunch of different powder and bullet combinations for battle rifles like your FAL. I never had a lot of success with BL-C2. I always go back to either 4895 or AA2520. Try the CCI#34 primers and lighten up on your crimp a bit or try not crimping at all. Anything that has a inertia firing pin needs a hard faced primer to (help) prevent slam fires. The world of compressed loads is a strange one. Sometimes it actually lowers the pressure and other times there is no change. Loading for military auto's often require small base dies. Good luck           

[Dolomite_supafly]

Nothing wrong with going lower as long it isn't so low you have a squib. You could even go a lot lower than 42 without issue. I don't think it would be a problem to start out lower than 42 and load a couple of each increasing a grain at a time up to 42 then shoot them until you get a load that cycles then work up from there. Worst thing that might happen is the gun will not cycle which is better than ruining the brass or the gun.

Sounds like the brass should last a long time if the case walls are that thick.

Seems to be a lot of variation of the MEN brass. I see some are reporting it is berdan primed while others say it is boxer.

[Six &Twenty]

Sunfish,
REALLY appreciate the heads up on primer selection!  I had not even considered this little 'wrinkle' in the process when loading for a semi-auto.  Ashamed to admit that all of the load data I have been looking at has been .308, and did not research 7.62 specifically... again, you know what happens when you ASSUME!  I will order up a batch, seems like a VERY good idea!  I seem to have heavy bullet / neck tension without the crimp, (maybe due in part to the thicker cases?) so I can probably skip this without causing any problems. I'm using a Lee Factory Crimp collet die.  Agree that the hard crimp is just one more source for increased pressures and adds another variable to the problem.   Thinking I'll mess with this until I get something usable with NO pressure indications, and then add a little crimp and see if pressure indicators jump. I am set up with a chronograph so I can track velocity... pressure is black-art!

[Six &Twenty]

Range Notes / Observations

 

 

So, this was a much needed distraction, while desperately awaiting payment from a customer who owes us close to $17K and is ‘several’ weeks late... who said running your own shop is ‘fun’?

I had worked up a few 7.62X51 (.308 Winchester) loads and the weather was cooperative, so I took all the ‘gear’ out and burned up 25 rounds in the back forty. This is a ‘new’ caliber to me and I was starting from zero. I had purchased a batch of German (NATO) ‘surplus’ and had run enough of it through the rifle to get comfortable with it. I did not keep any records on this stuff, but generally I was not terribly impressed with the accuracy potential of the gun. It is essentially a ‘battle rifle’ and the requirement to function reliably when full of mud or sand or God knows what else is a lot more critical than absolute precision. The rudimentary sights and my aging eyes do nothing to improve the situation. But it is a lot of fun to shoot.

Anyway, I had a supply of once-fired brass on hand and had something to start with. The bottom line on this first experiment is I can load better ‘stuff’ than NATO, which is not surprising.

The NATO rounds are pretty mild, pushing a 147 gr FMJ at an average of 2472 feet per second (“fps”) with a muzzle energy of 1995.189 foot pounds. The velocity spread was 55 fps and the standard deviation was 22.

My hand-loads were built up with a 155 gr hollow point boat tail (“HPBT”) 8 grs heavier than the NATO bullet. The max powder weight I could fit in the case was 46 grs of Hodgdon BL-C(2) without compressing the powder. This load had an average velocity of 2639 fps, extreme spread of only 37 fps and a standard deviation of 13. Muzzle energy is calculated as 2396.742 foot pounds.

Starting load was 43 grs working up in 1 gr increments. There were no indications of excessive pressure with any of the loadings.  There were no failures to cycle the action.  Ended up with the gas port on #6 for the 46 gr load.  This may have been a bit much, cases landed 6 to 10 feet out and I could have opened the port a bit.

It is very interesting to note that the published Hodgdon data shows much higher velocity potential, the start load of 45 grs supposedly delivering 2658 fps and a max charge of 48 grs (which would NEVER fit in these German cases) at 2867 fps. This data was produced with Winchester brass, that apparently has a greater internal volume than the NATO stuff I’m working with, and was fired from a longer 24” barrel, I am assuming from a bolt action.

Is this velocity 'drop' typical in a 'service rifle'?

Not a bad session, and I guess I feel a little better... now to write up that ‘past due’ letter...

 

The Data:

Hodgdon Reference Data BL-C(2) :

Winchester Brass – Fed. 210M Primer – 155 gr Sierra HPBT - 24” BBL (bolt?)

Start – 45 gr 2658 fps         Max – 48 gr 2867 fps

 

 

7.62X51 Range Session 3/17/2017

71 degrees - 29.86 pressure - 64% humidity

 

NATO German MAN16 - 147 gr FMJ Spitzer

High 2510

Low 2455

Ave 2472

Spread 55

S.D. 22

Ave F.P. 1995.189

 

Reload #1

Once Fired MEN16 Brass – Winchester WLR Primer – 155 gr Hornady HPBT – 19” BBL FAL (gas port @ ~12 inches)

43 gr. Hodgdon BL-C(2)

High 2446

Low 2411

Ave 2424

Spread 35

S.D. 19

Ave F.P. 2022.165

 

Reload #2

Once Fired MEN16 Brass – Winchester WLR Primer – 155 gr Hornady HPBT – 19” BBL

44 gr. Hodgdon BL-C(2)

High 2525

Low 2478

Ave 2496

Spread 47

S.D. 18

Ave F.P. 2144.771

 

Reload #3

Once Fired MEN16 Brass – Winchester WLR Primer – 155 gr Hornady HPBT – 19” BBL

45 gr. Hodgdon BL-C(2)

High 2564

Low 2530

Ave 2543

Spread 34

S.D. 14

Ave F.P. 2225.903

 

Reload #4

Once Fired MEN16 Brass – Winchester WLR Primer – 155 gr Hornady HPBT – 19” BBL

46 gr. Hodgdon BL-C(2) (compressed?)

High 2661

Low 2624

Ave 2639

Spread 37

S.D. 13

Ave F.P. 2396.742

Edited March 17, 2018 by Six &Twenty
Typo

[Omega]

Most NATO brass is thicker, so less capacity.  Many of the NATO rounds are around 2 MOA rounds unless you get the Match rounds.