AND why not all public schools

[Omega]

3 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Because there is no need to use untrained people unless you are saying your schools can’t afford trained people. If you can’t get any help from your local PD, the state or the Feds; then yes, HCP holders might be better than nothing.

Sorry, but I would pull my kid out of school if they said the best they could afford was someone with an HCP. I have been to an HCP class; you can’t even pretend that’s a training class; that’s an information class.

Then have active duty and retired military/LEO folks volunteer, and I would much rather have some kind of armed resistance force out there than have to have them wait for the shooter to get tired and leave or local LEO show up.  I would surely be better trained than the average HCP holder, and would be better equipped than most as well.  And I would volunteer as much as I could at my granddaughters school if they would let me.  In Japan, we (Active Duty parents) were on a roster to escort the school buses to and from school (unarmed), maybe we need to start looking for something of that nature to ensure our kids get as much protection as the politicians do.  I bet even .gov softball games have more security nowadays.

[chances R]

34 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Because there is no need to use untrained people unless you are saying your schools can’t afford trained people. If you can’t get any help from your local PD, the state or the Feds; then yes, HCP holders might be better than nothing.

Sorry, but I would pull my kid out of school if they said the best they could afford was someone with an HCP. I have been to an HCP class; you can’t even pretend that’s a training class; that’s an information class.

I would never recommend a HCP only qualification....but it has to be a start.  The SRO firearms training would be the minimal requirement.  Re-test every year.  Let's keep in mind a) most shootings are over in 5 minutes b)average response time is 14 minutes c) national on target hit % by police hovers around 20%.  

[JayC]

3 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Because there is no need to use untrained people unless you are saying your schools can’t afford trained people. If you can’t get any help from your local PD, the state or the Feds; then yes, HCP holders might be better than nothing.

Sorry, but I would pull my kid out of school if they said the best they could afford was someone with an HCP. I have been to an HCP class; you can’t even pretend that’s a training class; that’s an information class.

There are 100,000 schools within the United States, and over a 100 year life time of the school (trying to keep math simple most schools won't last 100 years) there is a 0.4% chance of an attack like the one is Florida.  And 0.4% over 100 years is probably on the high side.

Most sites are going to need at least 2 or 3 full time security guards, and many of the larger sites are going to need 6 to 10.  Lets say the average is 5 which I think is a low number, but to keep the math simple.  That is roughly 30 BILLION Dollars per year, more than 50% of the federal Department of Educations budget.  That isn't pocket change, it isn't money that can be found from current budgets without cutting educational programs.

Finally, I don't know if it's a good idea to turn 5 police officers/security guards loose inside each of our schools, and the unforeseen consequences.  Remember we've already seen a lot of 'abuses' from within the current SRO program around the country, turning minor disciplinary issues into cuffing 8 year olds and tossing them into the back of squad cars.  And I question if it's more dangerous to our society to expose virtually all children to the security protocols needed to protect the school from such a RARE risk. 

Allowing parents with HCP's (and teachers with them as well) to carry within their children's school is a good compromise, require that it be concealed, require that it only be on the parents person, but place a question mark in the mind of any attacker that they could be confronted by an armed parent would deter a vast majority of these attacks.  And would more likely lessen the number killed even in the event of an attack.  And is largely costs nothing, nor does it turn our schools into mini prisons with armed guards all over who have nothing to do but look for minor crimes to justify being there.

I agree the current HCP class doesn't do enough to train people to deal with an active shooter, so lets put pressure on our state or local law enforcement to provide that training - at cost - to ANY HCP holder in the community, and if they can't or won't do that, lets pressure the NRA, TFA or if all else fails start a non-profit group to provide the training.

Basic defensive training is pretty easy, and could be taught in a single weekend, how to secure a room, and how to cover the fatal funnel, how/what to communicate to law enforcement in the event of a school shooting.  Teaching HCP holders to be that last line of defense when a mad man strikes, leave the room clearing, and going towards gun fire for law enforcement or those with prior military training, but defensive tactics work, and are easy to teach. 

That's just my 2 cents worth on the subject, as somebody who has a daughter in school right now, and can't believe my wife who volunteers there on a regular basis can't carry to protect herself and my daughter when at school.

Edited February 20, 2018 by JayC

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, JayC said:

There are 100,000 schools within the United States, and over a 100 year life time of the school (trying to keep math simple most schools won't last 100 years) there is a 0.4% chance of an attack like the one is Florida.  And 0.4% over 100 years is probably on the high side.

Most sites are going to need at least 2 or 3 full time security guards, and many of the larger sites are going to need 6 to 10.  Lets say the average is 5 which I think is a low number, but to keep the math simple.  That is roughly 30 BILLION Dollars per year, more than 50% of the federal Department of Educations budget.  That isn't pocket change, it isn't money that can be found from current budgets without cutting educational programs.

Finally, I don't know if it's a good idea to turn 5 police officers/security guards loose inside each of our schools, and the unforeseen consequences.  Remember we've already seen a lot of 'abuses' from within the current SRO program around the country, turning minor disciplinary issues into cuffing 8 year olds and tossing them into the back of squad cars.  And I question if it's more dangerous to our society to expose virtually all children to the security protocols needed to protect the school from such a RARE risk. 

Allowing parents with HCP's (and teachers with them as well) to carry within their children's school is a good compromise, require that it be concealed, require that it only be on the parents person, but place a question mark in the mind of any attacker that they could be confronted by an armed parent would deter a vast majority of these attacks.  And would more likely lessen the number killed even in the event of an attack.  And is largely costs nothing, nor does it turn our schools into mini prisons with armed guards all over who have nothing to do but look for minor crimes to justify being there.

I agree the current HCP class doesn't do enough to train people to deal with an active shooter, so lets put pressure on our state or local law enforcement to provide that training - at cost - to ANY HCP holder in the community, and if they can't or won't do that, lets pressure the NRA, TFA or if all else fails start a non-profit group to provide the training.

Basic defensive training is pretty easy, and could be taught in a single weekend, how to secure a room, and how to cover the fatal funnel, how/what to communicate to law enforcement in the event of a school shooting.  Teaching HCP holders to be that last line of defense when a mad man strikes, leave the room clearing, and going towards gun fire for law enforcement or those with prior military training, but defensive tactics work, and are easy to teach. 

That's just my 2 cents worth on the subject, as somebody who has a daughter in school right now, and can't believe my wife who volunteers there on a regular basis can't carry to protect herself and my daughter when at school.

JC we can always count on you to start quoting percentages; most of them made up by you on the spot.

However, the percentage of being in a school shooting is extremely low. The chances of being in a plane crash are extremely low; but I doubt that mattered to the survivors in the plane that fireballed down the runway at Sioux City as it was happening.  And I’m sure a lot of parents put themselves in the place of those parents in Florida just as they did during Sandy Hook, parents that never thought it would happen to them....until it did

You have made it clear on many occasions that you don’t like or trust cops and they should be volunteers from the community; that’s fine. But cops that work the street have an advantage. You can train all day long for weeks on end and never know what it’s like to be in a real shooting. Sure, most cops haven’t been in a shooting either, but cops deal with high stress situations day in and day out; that helps them deal with the situations that may arise. I smile when I see people talking about “shot placement”. There is more to a shooting than hitting the target, especially when the target has a gun also. Am I justified in what I am about do? Have I exhausted all other possibilities? Can I fire without hitting innocent bystanders?

Two Officers should be able to cover most any school. And I say two in case one gets called away or has to go deal with a problem. This is 2018 for a few thousand (or less) bucks you can have high resolution cameras and monitors all over the place that the Cops/office personnel/Teachers’ lounge can all see.

[Omega]

2 hours ago, DaveTN said:

JC we can always count on you to start quoting percentages; most of them made up by you on the spot.

However, the percentage of being in a school shooting is extremely low. The chances of being in a plane crash are extremely low; but I doubt that mattered to the survivors in the plane that fireballed down the runway at Sioux City as it was happening.  And I’m sure a lot of parents put themselves in the place of those parents in Florida just as they did during Sandy Hook, parents that never thought it would happen to them....until it did

You have made it clear on many occasions that you don’t like or trust cops and they should be volunteers from the community; that’s fine. But cops that work the street have an advantage. You can train all day long for weeks on end and never know what it’s like to be in a real shooting. Sure, most cops haven’t been in a shooting either, but cops deal with high stress situations day in and day out; that helps them deal with the situations that may arise. I smile when I see people talking about “shot placement”. There is more to a shooting than hitting the target, especially when the target has a gun also. Am I justified in what I am about do? Have I exhausted all other possibilities? Can I fire without hitting innocent bystanders?

Two Officers should be able to cover most any school. And I say two in case one gets called away or has to go deal with a problem. This is 2018 for a few thousand (or less) bucks you can have high resolution cameras and monitors all over the place that the Cops/office personnel/Teachers’ lounge can all see.

I agree for the most part, except that LEO is already stretched thin,  and it would take a huge tax increase to hire more.  This is supposed to be the Volunteer State, why not use volunteers?  While LEO do get some training, it is woefully inadequate in most departments,  specially when it comes to range time.  The training you speak of comes with experience, the actual rules of engagement can be taught in a weekend course.  It was the same in the military, most non line units only qualified once a year and hardly ever did any kind of direct contact training, at least not until after 9/11.  And if you allow military and LEO volunteers, the learning curve would be much less.  Wasn't there a civilian training program already??..yup.

http://www.nashville.gov/Police-Department/Get-Involved/Citizen-Police-Academy.aspx

[300winmag]

I think the first focus should be removing the criminal offense in our state law for someone with a handgun carry permit carrying on college property and then of course on K-12 property.  From what I understand private colleges and private K-12 schools can allow by policy people with handgun carry permits to carry BUT by default it is still a crime.

Second, it is important to point out there are several classes of people in TN that can already carry on school property that are not LEO's.  Last year a state law was passed to allow district attorneys and assistant district attorneys to carry anywhere, including school property, even when they are not working if they go through firearms training.  Licensed armed guards (they takee a 2 day class VS 1 day for handgun carry permits) can carry on public and private K-12 and college property when working.  From what I understand in the past or maybe even now people with the right connections were or are able to get special deputy cards/city police commissions and they can carry on school property.  College staff can already carry at public colleges but of course just on their own not representing the college as a security function.  It's legal for schools to have school shooting teams and have their guns at schools.  They can teach hunter ed at schools with guns.

With non LEO people already possessing guns on school property in some fashion and some carrying them for protection I don't see what the problem is with legalizing handgun carry permit people.  As far as K-12 schools here, I would not make it a crime for teachers and staff or anyone else with a permit to carry.  School staff carrying would have to be between them and their employer just like any other job.

[Ugly]

No matter what you think should be done to improve safety, it appears evident to me the left shouldn't be in charge of it. This article is quite telling. 

Did the Progressive 'Broward County Solution' Cost 17 Student Lives?

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/02/did_the_progressive_broward_county_solution_cost_17_student_lives.html

[JayC]

13 hours ago, DaveTN said:

JC we can always count on you to start quoting percentages; most of them made up by you on the spot.

However, the percentage of being in a school shooting is extremely low. The chances of being in a plane crash are extremely low; but I doubt that mattered to the survivors in the plane that fireballed down the runway at Sioux City as it was happening.  And I’m sure a lot of parents put themselves in the place of those parents in Florida just as they did during Sandy Hook, parents that never thought it would happen to them....until it did

You have made it clear on many occasions that you don’t like or trust cops and they should be volunteers from the community; that’s fine. But cops that work the street have an advantage. You can train all day long for weeks on end and never know what it’s like to be in a real shooting. Sure, most cops haven’t been in a shooting either, but cops deal with high stress situations day in and day out; that helps them deal with the situations that may arise. I smile when I see people talking about “shot placement”. There is more to a shooting than hitting the target, especially when the target has a gun also. Am I justified in what I am about do? Have I exhausted all other possibilities? Can I fire without hitting innocent bystanders?

Two Officers should be able to cover most any school. And I say two in case one gets called away or has to go deal with a problem. This is 2018 for a few thousand (or less) bucks you can have high resolution cameras and monitors all over the place that the Cops/office personnel/Teachers’ lounge can all see.

Well I'm happy to show my math  If you think my estimates are way off, but I based it on 4 major school shootings per year which seems to be the norm, and averaged it over 100 years to get the number up to a point people could see how small it is, but how much money it would cost.

I agree that your average street cop probably does have a better ability to deal with high stress situations, BUT that isn't how the SRO programs work for the most part.  SRO's are not street cops, they're special dedicated police officers who do nothing but baby-sit the schools in most departments.  Their job is no more high stress than mine, or yours.  Most will go months or years without performing an arrest let alone dealing with high stress events on a day to day basis.  

As for numbers, I agree most smaller schools could get by with 2 or 3, remember that you're covering more than just the 7 hours of school per day, many schools have after school activities, weekend activities, and other stuff at the school where a large number of children and/or parents would be on site...  So 2 might not be enough when you consider scheduling, sick days, vacation, and not working a lot of overtime.  Middle Schools, and High Schools will depend on the layout of the campus, and how many ingress and egress points.  When you look at the school where this latest shooting took place, it has 10-12 different buildings with multiple points of entry to many of them, they have large athletic fields, and parking lots.  I don't think you could security the entire facility with 10 people on duty, without turning it into a mini prison.

Dave, I have friends who are police officers, and work in law enforcement, I've been offered to join a local department as a reserve officer (my work schedule prevents me for taking them up on that offer), I also provide free consulting to 3 different law enforcement departments on technical matters when they need help, and generally have great respect for what officers do to help the community.  I do have a lot of concerns over the way departments in general conduct themselves, but those are policy discussions.  My opinion of teachers and public schools is much much lower I promise you, but I don't want to see teachers and children die at those schools.

I worry about exposing children to the 'security theater' that is the TSA on a daily basis, because that is where we're headed if we start down this path.  I don't want to expose most children to a mini-prison environment where they think it's perfectly ok for law enforcement to rummage through their bags, and order them around.  And I'm concerned that police officers are trained to make arrests, which is NOT want we need in our schools on a daily basis.  But again, these are policy questions about the long term good of society not attacks on police officers.

Finally, I think you're under estimating the ability of most grown adults to know when they're in a life or death situation and when it's justified to shoot somebody and not.  Going on the offensive is different that securing choke points and waiting for backup from law enforcement.  I think most HCP holder who wanted to could learn those tactics over a weekend training course.  Remember it doesn't take much to turn a gun free zone into just as dangerous as everywhere else, which is pretty safe.

[peejman]

Lots of municipalities already have "reserve officers" or similar programs. My local sheriffs office has a handful of retired cops and their friends who ride around in police cars and do things like visit shut-ins, deliver paperwork, and just be an extra set of eyes/ears in the community.  To my knowledge they're not authorized to arrest anyone or other such things, but they do have radios and can call in what they see.  

Why not have them show up at the schools at arrival/dismissal times and simply be a presence. Instead of one cop on site during the most vulnerable hours, have one cop and 3-4 reserve officers, simply to be present and visible.  Once school starts, they lock the gates behind them and go do whatever until dismissal time. It'd be 2-3 hours/day with all the holidays and breaks built into the school system. 

They local sheriff also had a citizen's academy years ago with the idea that graduated could become reserve officers, but for whatever reason they discontinued it. Could be a good time to bring that back. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by peejman

[300winmag]

Reserve police in my area are fully sworn officers and can carry on duty and off duty just like full time police officers.  State law allows them to carry anywhere in the state, including inside school buildings, just like full time police.  Retired police in TN who qualify yearly from what I understand can carry anywhere they want just like full time police too, including school property.  They just of course are not LEO's anymore.

[Erik88]

I keep reading that there was a school resource officer at the school at the time of the shooting. One student claimed during an interview that the cop was "nowhere to be found". 

[peejman]

48 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I keep reading that there was a school resource officer at the school at the time of the shooting. One student claimed during an interview that the cop was "nowhere to be found". 

This high school is big at 44 acres.  It more closely resembles a community colllege with about 10 separate buildings encompassing about 10 acres with 3 street entrances with open gates.  Check it out on google maps. There's no way 1 cop could do anything if he didn't happen to be right there.