AND why not all public schools

[chances R]

So the legislature saw fit to allow full-time employees to carry at post secondary schools (i.e. UT).  Why not at all public schools?  Bear with me a moment.  Teachers especially, but also other full time employees may volunteer to carry at school.  Those who do so would be vetted by the school principal and then by the local LE agency.  They would then proceed to be trained by the local LEA.  By example 20 employees do so, 10 would be assigned to carry one week, with alternating schedules with the others.  All may carry, but the 10 scheduled would be mandatory.  This way no one could predict who was doing so.  If carrying, weapon has to be carried and concealed at all times.  No storage in purse, deck, etc.  One would train with their own firearm they prefer to carry.  Option for school/county purchased firearm.  Something has to be done for protection of staff and students.  Plain clothes concealed carry is preferable to uniformed guards and also cheaper.

 

 

 

[Garufa]

Did a bill pass the TN legislature today?  Is  Haslam going to sign?

 

 

[Oh Shoot]

1 hour ago, Garufa said:

Did a bill pass the TN legislature today?  Is  Haslam going to sign?

He was just mentioning existing law, employees can carry on public college property if they jump through certain hoops, the college can't ban it.

Can also carry on private college property IF the school allows and implements a policy.

They can also carry on private K-12 schools IF the school allows and implements a policy.

But same for public K-12 schools not allowed under any circumstance.

- OS

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[Garufa]

11 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

He was just mentioning existing law, employees can carry on public college property if they jump through certain hoops, the college can't ban it.

Can also carry on private college property IF the school allows and implements a policy.

They can also carry on private K-12 schools IF the school allows and implements a policy.

But same for public K-12 schools not allowed under any circumstance.

- OS

 

Gotcha.  Another nuance of TN’s constantly evolving and changing laws.

Carrying in public schools or on the grounds of will never be allowed in any way, shape, or form in this state.

[chances R]

I have advocated this idea ever since a local school shooting about 7 years or so ago. Now Newt got hold of my idea.  

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/02/16/newt-gingrich-after-florida-shootings-heres-practical-proposal-to-protect-our-children.html

[chances R]

4 minutes ago, Garufa said:

Gotcha.  Another nuance of TN’s constantly evolving and changing laws.

Carrying in public schools or on the grounds of will never be allowed in any way, shape, or form in this state.

well things do change.  Public universities as noted above.  If enough noise is made, I could see it happening. For the UT example all those employees just have to have a HCP.  For the public schools they would undergo training similar to the school resource officers.

Edited February 17, 2018 by chances R

[300winmag]

You can carry in K-12 public schools in Mississippi with an enhanced carry license.  The enhanced license requires basically the same 8 hour training class as the TN handgun carry permit class.  In fact a couple of ranges in Memphis offer the classes for people to get enhanced MS licenses.

You can also carry in K-12 schools in Alabama with a pistol license there.  You do not need any training to get a pistol license.  You just pay a 20 dollar fee to the county sheriff, pass a background check, and are good to go to legally carry at your kid's school.

Of course in both Alabama and Mississippi you are legal to carry on all K-12 private school property, public and private colleges.

Kind of silly how we basically have the same license as an enhanced MS license and of course go through more hoops than people in Alabama and we are illegal here at all colleges and K-12 schools.

From what I understand it is also legal to carry on K-12 and college property in Missouri with a carry license.  I think they may require range training to get a carry license like Tennessee. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by 300winmag

[300winmag]

Also remember that it is legal to carry on college property in every state surrounding Tennessee, except North Carolina.  It would be nice if our 'conservative republican' politicians would help make things easier as far as carry restrictions for people who have jumped through the hoops to get carry permits here.

Edited February 17, 2018 by 300winmag

[Mr.Mildot]

The logic of disallowing school staff from carrying is totally flawed, just like all anti gun arguments.  If a teacher owns a gun and wants to carry in class to protect the children in the worst case imaginable, then prohibition on carry stops him or her from doing so because they are afraid of losing their job, criminal charges etc.  But if the same teacher (or whomever) suddenly becomes hellbent on murder, then the possibility of losing a job or being charged with a misdemeanor is supposed to stop them? Ridiculous...

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Mr.Mildot

[DaveTN]

13 hours ago, chances R said:

So the legislature saw fit to allow full-time employees to carry at post secondary schools (i.e. UT).  Why not at all public schools?  Bear with me a moment.  Teachers especially, but also other full time employees may volunteer to carry at school.  Those who do so would be vetted by the school principal and then by the local LE agency.  They would then proceed to be trained by the local LEA.  By example 20 employees do so, 10 would be assigned to carry one week, with alternating schedules with the others.  All may carry, but the 10 scheduled would be mandatory.  This way no one could predict who was doing so.  If carrying, weapon has to be carried and concealed at all times.  No storage in purse, deck, etc.  One would train with their own firearm they prefer to carry.  Option for school/county purchased firearm.  Something has to be done for protection of staff and students.  Plain clothes concealed carry is preferable to uniformed guards and also cheaper.

The idea has been kicked around for many years. I think you will see it being implemented in some areas; others will be slow to follow. Obviously the wealthiest areas will not have problems fulfilling their needs; poorer districts will struggle with it.

Why not at all public schools? Because many parents simply won’t stand for it. Most don’t want armed private Security let alone an HCP holder that has no training whatsoever carrying around their kids. Some parents aren’t going to be ok with anyone carrying in the school.

I think what you will see in more advanced districts is teachers that want to carry going through training side by side with the locals cops and having the same firearms qualifications requirements. Richer districts will simply hire Police Officers that want to work second jobs.

But as most everyone is coming to realize, this isn’t a gun issue; it’s a mental health issue. I think you will see Doctors/ legislators/School officials looking harder at the problem of Kids being pumped full of (legal) drugs and the impact of social media. I also think the days of making or implying threats and calling it “free speech” are soon to be over.

[chances R]

6 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

The idea has been kicked around for many years. I think you will see it being implemented in some areas; others will be slow to follow. Obviously the wealthiest areas will not have problems fulfilling their needs; poorer districts will struggle with it.

Why not at all public schools? Because many parents simply won’t stand for it. Most don’t want armed private Security let alone an HCP holder that has no training whatsoever carrying around their kids. Some parents aren’t going to be ok with anyone carrying in the school.

I think what you will see in more advanced districts is teachers that want to carry going through training side by side with the locals cops and having the same firearms qualifications requirements. Richer districts will simply hire Police Officers that want to work second jobs.

But as most everyone is coming to realize, this isn’t a gun issue; it’s a mental health issue. I think you will see Doctors/ legislators/School officials looking harder at the problem of Kids being pumped full of (legal) drugs and the impact of social media. I also think the days of making or implying threats and calling it “free speech” are soon to be over.

Agree especially with the area I placed in bold.  Last week's issue of the Outback/TWRA officer as an example.  However, at some point the good of the many may prevail.  We also realize 'undercover' personnel are much more effective.  Uniformed security helpful, but as demonstrated time and again certainly not a guarantee.

[300winmag]

A public school district in Tennessee can use a contract security company right now for armed security on school property but I'm guessing that very few of the public school districts here do that if they can't afford school resource officers.  I'm sure private schools use contract companies quite a bit.

[m16ty]

TN just needs to let permit holders carry in schools. I don't know when these people will get it through their heads that these "gun free" zones don't work, all that does is issue a open invitation for a shooter to know that there will be little to no resistance.

Most schools around here have 1 resource officer per school. There is no way 1 officer can protect a whole school. Either he will be the first one to take a bullet, or do like the FL shooter did, make sure the SRO is out of the area. 

Just the simple thought that the teachers and principles in any given school may be armed could very well cause somebody to think twice about trying to shoot the school up. These people are cowards for the most part, they go after schools partly because they are a soft target.  

[300winmag]

The NRA and state gun rights groups don't have to look further than several states that border TN where there are not any problems with K-12 and college carry.  The gun groups should not let the conservative republican politicians here play dumb and not recognize the fact that legal licensed school and college carry does happen in quite a few states.

[n0rlf]

Why should there be a restriction on carry anywhere? Does anyone really think a criminal will stop because it is illegal to carry somewhere? How stupid or our legislatures? 

Just because some folks are afraid of a piece of inanimate metal is not a good reason to restrict anyone's rights. 

Stop with the exceptions, fight for all of our rights. Then mass shootings anywhere would be harder. At least theoretically. 

 

 

[Ugly]

The legislators are stupid because they are more left than not. 

How about we do two things. One is look at the historical data of the root of the decline in public education as well as society. I would have to believe that is when we started the department of education. 

You don't keep changing front tires on you car when the alignment is the problem, you fix the problem first. 

Second, why not make part of being an educator to have the required skills to be proficient in firearms. It could be a qualification, just like when we had the drawdown in the military under Clinton and he cut personnel but not jobs. Collateral duties were plentiful and many were a full time job that you had to keep up in addition to your regular duties. 

If a prospective teacher doesn't qualify, they don't become a teacher. 

This would alleviate the overwhelming socialist mentality and probably put a screeching halt to any school shooting but also start to return this once great country towards the correct path. 

But then again, we could just change the tires. 

 

[DaveTN]

23 minutes ago, Ugly said:

The legislators are stupid because they are more left than not. 

How about we do two things. One is look at the historical data of the root of the decline in public education as well as society. I would have to believe that is when we started the department of education. 

You don't keep changing front tires on you car when the alignment is the problem, you fix the problem first. 

Second, why not make part of being an educator to have the required skills to be proficient in firearms. It could be a qualification, just like when we had the drawdown in the military under Clinton and he cut personnel but not jobs. Collateral duties were plentiful and many were a full time job that you had to keep up in addition to your regular duties. 

If a prospective teacher doesn't qualify, they don't become a teacher. 

This would alleviate the overwhelming socialist mentality and probably put a screeching halt to any school shooting but also start to return this once great country towards the correct path. 

But then again, we could just change the tires. 

 

I don’t want anyone being forced to qualify or carry a gun that doesn’t want to. Of course I don’t think we have to worry about that happening.

A Teachers job is not security; especially not armed security. Their job is to notify those that can deal with the problem.

Part of the problem is the schools and the teachers, but the overwhelming part of the problem is the worthless azz parents that shouldn’t have had kids in the first place because they have zero idea on how to raise a respectful productive person. Many of these kids (thanks to their parents) belong in reform school. And many others are so drugged they can’t maintain and disrupt the whole class; that’s their Doctors fault.

[Ugly]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t want anyone being forced to qualify or carry a gun that doesn’t want to. Of course I don’t think we have to worry about that happening.

A Teachers job is not security; especially not armed security. Their job is to notify those that can deal with the problem.

Part of the problem is the schools and the teachers, but the overwhelming part of the problem is the worthless azz parents that shouldn’t have had kids in the first place because they have zero idea on how to raise a respectful productive person. Many of these kids (thanks to their parents) belong in reform school. And many others are so drugged they can’t maintain and disrupt the whole class; that’s their Doctors fault.

I agree. However we are past epidemic. Not just school security but societal decline which is systemic. All things troublesome lead to the takeover of our country by those that wish to implement their beliefs.

its well planned and imemented without firing a single shot or picking up a pitchfork. 

There is no denying this has happened and the only way to stop it is to address it without the cloud of doublespeak. 

I don't say force a single person to pick up arms to teach. I say make that a prerequisite to the job. Armed security could be used in the interim.

This Mess wasn't created overnight and won't be fixed quickly. However it needs to be addressed and not by those that have caused this problem by implementing more laws that are sure to be useless for the purpose of "for the children" at least. 

Either some of those calling for firearm bans actually believe their failed ideology or its part of their grand scheme. It's tough to tell since honesty and truth have also degraded in this country along with many other things. 

I would rather my kid be taught and protected by a proficient firearm owner that believes in our constitution than an anti American indoctrinator any day.

Those running our schools are not fiscally responsible partly due to federal mandates. Having to hire more people to be armed guards seems like another inefficient plan in the long run. 

If we don't address the root of the problem, it will never be fixed. 

[DaveTN]

8 minutes ago, Ugly said:

If we don't address the root of the problem, it will never be fixed. 

That’s true, but the root of the problem has nothing to do with guns. No matter how much either side wants that to be true.

There isn’t going to be gun confiscation any more than there is going to be untrained private citizens carry guns in schools.

If you want to have some kind of showdown with the liberals in the school system; you will lose.

If you think you are going to tell parents untrained civilians are going to be carry guns in schools to protect their kids; you will lose.

[chances R]

2 hours ago, Ugly said:

The legislators are stupid because they are more left than not. 

How about we do two things. One is look at the historical data of the root of the decline in public education as well as society. I would have to believe that is when we started the department of education. 

You don't keep changing front tires on you car when the alignment is the problem, you fix the problem first. 

Second, why not make part of being an educator to have the required skills to be proficient in firearms. It could be a qualification, just like when we had the drawdown in the military under Clinton and he cut personnel but not jobs. Collateral duties were plentiful and many were a full time job that you had to keep up in addition to your regular duties. 

If a prospective teacher doesn't qualify, they don't become a teacher. 

This would alleviate the overwhelming socialist mentality and probably put a screeching halt to any school shooting but also start to return this once great country towards the correct path. 

But then again, we could just change the tires. 

 

So they took prayer out of the schools.  Pledge of Alligiance I guess is optional.  OK to kneel and ignore the Nat'l Anthem, and you want all of the folks involved in the undermining of society to carry a gun? NO Thanks on my part.  Plus anyone carrying a firearm routinely NEEDS proper training; not just the ability to purchase one.  Flame me, but I see enough people think they are proficient that are down right scary.  I don't want to be down range from them in a local pharmacy or have my kids downrange in a school.  So I still think the best we can hope for would be volunteer employees at each school to be properly trained.  That is not far-fetched and has and can be done.  It will take a legislative push in TN for it to happen.  That is where it will be bogged down.

[DaveTN]

What do private schools in the state do? Are they using armed Security Guards, paying Cops, or doing nothing?

[Ugly]

30 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

That’s true, but the root of the problem has nothing to do with guns. No matter how much either side wants that to be true.

There isn’t going to be gun confiscation any more than there is going to be untrained private citizens carry guns in schools.

If you want to have some kind of showdown with the liberals in the school system; you will lose.

If you think you are going to tell parents untrained civilians are going to be carry guns in schools to protect their kids; you will lose.

I'm a end result type thinker. All of the fluff and minutiae in between I gloss over because it seems logical to me, if we know what our goal is, we the the steps necessary to get there. 

 I don't think guns are the topic at all. Except to address the antis that are in full swing ban mode. 

Perhaps my limited access to "proficient" firearms owners is limited because most of my interaction has been with military folk. At various levels including spec ops. I do avoid public ranges and game lands though. 

The bar would need to be high for armed folks in schools, without a doubt. 

If we have chuckleheads out there sporting arms that shouldn't be, they shouldn't be around schools or me or anyone, inmo.

the qualifications for armed teachers should be very intensive. That'll weed out those that shouldn't be armed. 

This is only a start to address the school safety problems. 

Otherwise we can keep spending money on bandaid approaches and ignore the root system. 

The left will not aknowledge the problem. They will only continue with their failed ways, that includes never giving up on banning firearms. After all, that's the problem to them. 

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

One of my relatives said on FB that its not the kids with mental problems.. its all these men  and their automatic killing machines.....

I about fell out of my chair....

[TripleGGG]

That's interesting as I had a friend on Facebook use the same "killing machine" phrase. I normally do not engage but I had to on this comment.

[300winmag]

We really need to focus on getting college carry with a handgun carry permit legalized first in Tennessee and use the fact that Tennessee is one of the few states in this part of the country that makes college carry illegal with a permit.  It would be of more practical benefit for people who are going to night classes.

We've got to use facts for our side and not emotion and those facts are that college carry is legal in most states bordering TN.  Use the strategy that college carry would be useful for folks walking alone at night for protection from parking lot robbery.  Mention that MS enhanced licensees take the same 8 hour training classes that TN handgun carry permit people take and give statistics of that program.  Emotional arguments can always be cut apart a lot easier VS the facts.

I think K-12 carry is possible with a permit but you have to get college carry first.  You will need to point out that it is already legal in states bordering TN which are MS, AL, and Missouri.