Armor for small female

[monkeylizard]

Mrs. 'lizard is a school teacher. I don't know why I never thought of it before now, but I'd like to talk with her about keeping armor in her room. Before I do that, I need to learn what's out there.

She's small. just over 5' and maybe 100 lbs soaking wet. She'll shoot with me from time to time, but is by no means into tacticool. In other words, a camo'd out plate carrier covered in MOLLE strips ain't gonna fly. It would need to be simple to put on in a panic and light weight. She's not going to be able to struggle with a 40 lb. vest. I know light and good = expensive. It's OK....she's worth it.

Given recent events, I don't think handgun-level defense is enough. Looking for something that can handle strikes from 7.62x39 and 5.56. Would that be Level III ?

Finally, are there any dealers in middle TN that carry this stuff in stock? I might have a better chance of getting her to buy in to the idea if she can see it and try it on for fit.

I'm pretty much a total n00b on armor so school me!

[Raoul]

Have you talked to her about this? I ask because in some systems it might be hard to explain body armor in a classroom.

Schools systems are weird institutions.

[Omega]

There are soft body armor panels sized to fit backpacks out there.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/11/07/florida-school-lets-parents-buy-bulletproof-panels-for-students-to-put-in-backpacks/?utm_term=.2f75d626290f

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, monkeylizard said:

7.62x39 and 5.56. Would that be Level III ?

Those would both shoot right through soft body armor. You would need level IV hard body armor.

 My first question would be the same as Raoul; see if they will let her carry body armor into a classroom.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Armor that is going to stop rifle threats is going to be heavy or expensive. And as far as the vest itself they can be cumbersome and unwieldy unless you actually train with them and practice putting them on. An armored vest would also attract attention in a school setting.

I recently remember seeing a backpack that has soft armor built in and while that won't stop a rifle round I will say you can find backpacks with pouches for water bladders that will probably accept a hard armor plate. I bet you could drop a hard plate in the backpack and have a very effective bullet stopper without looking like a bullet stopper.

Plenty of places could sew in a pouch to hold the plate if you wanted something that looked commonplace in a school. I've seen Hello Kitty backpacks big enough to stick a 10x12 plate inside.

As far as why type of plate I would suggest a ceramic as they tend to be lighter but they are thicker. Steel is thinner but weighs more. They do have ultra lightweight plates capable of stopping rifle rounds but they are very expensive. They even have rifle plates that actually float. Some of the polycarbonate plates are nice as well.

I have used all the different types and there are benefits to each but you must weigh those against the detractors. For me, personally, I use steel because they are thinner making getting into and out of vehicles easier. I am not going to be pounding the ground so weight is not a concern if it was I would choose ceramic or one of the newer types that weigh very little.

Also, do not forget about "In Conjunction" plates. They are designed to have a soft body armor backer. The plate itself doesn't stop the bullet but causes the bullet to break up as it passes through the plate. The soft armor backing then catches the fragments. These are generally lighter and thinner than level 3 stand alone plates but they generally cannot soak up a lot of rounds either as the ones I have seen were ceramic.

Any armor with the letter "A" behind it, Like "3A" or "2A", is generally a soft armor plate and will NOT stop rifle rounds no matter the rating. Armor with only a letter designation, "3" or "4", is a hard plate and is designed to stop rifle rounds, providing the classification is high enough. Both types will stop pistol rounds they are rated for but only hard armor plates will stop rifle rounds. You can also use lower rated rifle plates if pistol calibers are the more serious concern.

5.56 is a very, very hard caliber to defeat at close range. And you generally want a level 4 plate to handle point blank 5.56 rounds. Some level 3 plates are rated to stop 5.56 but those are generally not tested at point blank ranges.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Dolomite_supafly

[Raoul]

So as the husband of a school teacher who's had these talks, let me ask. What's her  opinion on this? Let me just say....she's an adult. You have to trust her opinion.

[Grayfox54]

I agree. Armor that will stop rifle calibers require plates. Those plates are heavy and awkward. I doubt she'll like anything of that type. 

One other thing,  when the shooting starts, rather than put the armor on herself, I think she'd be more inclined to strap it on the nearest student. Its pure reflex and instinct to protect the children. I know that's what I would do. 

[monkeylizard]

4 hours ago, Raoul said:

Have you talked to her about this? I ask because in some systems it might be hard to explain body armor in a classroom.

Schools systems are weird institutions.

There's nothing in the employee handbook that mentions it. It would be stored out f sight anyway.

1 hour ago, Raoul said:

So as the husband of a school teacher who's had these talks, let me ask. What's her  opinion on this? Let me just say....she's an adult. You have to trust her opinion.

I mentioned it tonight. She's not opposed to it, but doesn't know anything about it.

1 hour ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

An armored vest would also attract attention in a school setting.

Yep. Stored out of sight when not in use, and if in use I'm not real worried about a teacher in a vest ushering kids out of the school attracting attention.

Plenty of places could sew in a pouch to hold the plate if you wanted something that looked commonplace in a school. I've seen Hello Kitty backpacks big enough to stick a 10x12 plate inside.

Good idea. I'll mention that to her. She can sew a bit, and my mom is real good.

You can also use lower rated rifle plates if pistol calibers are the more serious concern.

Unfortunately, I think Florida has shown again that rifle rounds are about equally as likely as pistol rounds if it ever comes to that.

5.56 is a very, very hard caliber to defeat at close range. And you generally want a level 4 plate to handle point blank 5.56 rounds.

Thanks.

[bud]

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Edited April 13, 2018 by bud

[Dolomite_supafly]

4 hours ago, bud said:

Luckily, the middle school situation worries me less than high school would. Nevertheless, my curiosity was piqued so did some googling that probably turned up the same stuff you've already read. (Ps- i know Zero about body armor)

Looks like Level IIIA with level 4 plates in the additional plate pockets, seems you'd be in the $1,500 range. As i mentioned, I know nothing and am aware various materials are available that could drive cost up or down.

Regardless, as long as it could be secured from theft in her room, i think +/- $1,500 isnt expensive. Especially when considering many of us sit on hordes of guns and ammo that are equally unlikely to be "needed". I say do what y'all feel yo, and definitely post up what you decide on.

I'm sure, like my own teacher relations, she'd be shepherding many precious little lambs to safety, and thinking that she would be selfish for covering herself in armor is silly.

No need to have any IIIA soft armor with level 4 plates. Level 4 plates will stop pretty much anything man portable. And one more thing, extra cost does not equate to extra protection. Spending $1,000 on a level IV plate from one vendor will not ensure you are getting a better plate than a vendor that has one for $99 as long as the cheaper one has been tested. AR500 has been selling their armor for a very long time now, you can trust their products to be what they say they are.

And one thing I would caution you about is only buy from reputable dealers. There are a lot of sellers out there that have not tested their armor. Some are proving to be inadequate for their armor rating. Some are even selling fake airsoft armor that will not stop a 22.

 

Here is a decent level IV composite plate for not a lot of money. It is pretty lightweight as well at 7.5 pounds and is pretty thin at .75". But it costs more at $155

https://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-body-armor/level-iv-body-armor/ar500-armor-level-iv-composite-body-armor-10x12.html

 

Here is IV plate that is cheaper, $99, but the trade off is weight, 8.3 pounds, and thickness, 1". It is a ceramic and polyethylene plate.

 https://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-body-armor/level-iv-body-armor/ar500-armorr-level-iv-body-armor-10-x-12.html

 

Here is a lightweight level III plate that is a bit lighter than the level IV plate above. It is also cheaper and thinner. But it will probably not stop 5.56 at point blank ranges but you could back it with IIIA soft armor. The trade off would be cost because this combination would be more than most of the IV plates above.

https://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-body-armor/level-iii-lightweight-body-armor/ar500-armor-square-back-lightweight-level-iii.html

[Guest BHG123]

I would rather carry a well balanced handgun that I have trained with, than be carrying around that much weight in body armor every day when odds are that a mass shooting will not happen.  She could develop back problems over time, and armor does not cover the entire body, including the head.  A shot to the femoral artery in the leg could be as fatal as anything.

There are 37,000+ public and private high schools in this country.  There have been roughly 12 school shootings since Columbine (1999- 18 years ago).  That is less than 1 a year out of the 37,000 chance that your wifes school will be next, but I have not had my coffee yet, lol, so my math might be off.  And then if there is a shooting, not everyone dies, most live.

On an interesting note, I was looking at high school shooting stats, and tried to find a starting point for my stats.  I chose Columbine, because that was at the beginning of world social media.  If I started at the beginning, I would have to go back to July 26, 1764, at least on on resource.

I guess schools have always been a soft target.  I think the only difference between then and now is that we have better, more prolific media coverage.  And maybe future aspiring teachers should be counseled that they are taking on a job that has some danger to it and they should be given a means of dealing effectively with it.

[bud]

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Edited April 13, 2018 by bud

[Dolomite_supafly]

Body armor is not meant to be worn 100% of the time. It is there when you need it. In the teachers case it would likely sit in a closet until it is needed. Putting on body armor that is properly fitted and proper for the individual takes seconds.

There are no restrictions at AR500.com. Anyone can buy them.

[monkeylizard]

Yep, Dolo has it. This is something that would almost certainly NEVER be used. If it's never used, well good. That's what I want.

Which brings me to something I've been reading about....longevity. It seems pretty clear that steel is going to last pretty much as long as we're around. What about other types? It makes sense that rough handling of ceramics could crack them, but this will not be tossed in the trunk every day. Just sitting nice and quiet unless needed. Is longevity something I should be considering? Some sites indicate that the glues used in some types of plates could break down after X years. Or is longevity just something I'd need to think about with soft armor and the fibers breaking down?

This looks interesting as a carrier: https://www.ar500armor.com/plate-carriers/plate-carriers-en/escort-plate-carrier.html

Thoughts on that?

Edited February 18, 2018 by monkeylizard

[Dolomite_supafly]

I would not worry about damaging them. It takes a lot to crack a ceramic plate and as far as the plates breaking down I would not worry about it. The only way I could think it would be a problem is if it were left out in the sun day after day or if it were stored under water.

[cch2a]

Several companies make lightweight level III + steel plates now that stop 5.56 & 7.62. They generally weigh around 5.5 lbs a plate and are not expensive. 

III+ is not an industry standard rating I don't think but has been adobted by companies pitching plates to stop common rifle threats but not full on level IV.

Edited February 18, 2018 by cch2a

[Omega]

My plates are ceramic with a steel core, I've handled them semi roughly but they held out well.  The covers do come loose at times, but a quick 2 part epoxy fixes them right up.  The soft armor on the other hand can get worn, Kevlar and like fabrics holds up well, but plastic like materials like Dyneema have about a 5 year shelf life, and some tests have shown some don't hold up well to point blank range.

If I were shopping for body armor, I would make sure they were either NIJ or the FBI testing compliant.  And then I'd keep an eye out for recalls, because there have been a few, and the mfgrs just want to sell so their testing may not be done properly.

[Ranger431]

On 2/18/2018 at 7:46 AM, cch2a said:

Several companies make lightweight level III + steel plates now that stop 5.56 & 7.62. They generally weigh around 5.5 lbs a plate and are not expensive. 

III+ is not an industry standard rating I don't think but has been adobted by companies pitching plates to stop common rifle threats but not full on level IV.

Care to post a few sites for this?  If you don't want to post, or can't, how about a PM?  

[Wingshooter]

Just thinking out loud about an additional solution.... what about a heavy steel desk with file drawers filled with papers (maybe even some armor added to the back of the drawer)? Take cover behind the desk with a trained handgun ready to pop the shooter if he comes in her room. Seems like that might be just as easy or easier than retrieving a heavy vest from a closet. ust a thought...

Edited March 1, 2018 by Wingshooter

[cch2a]

6 hours ago, Ranger431 said:

Care to post a few sites for this?  If you don't want to post, or can't, how about a PM?  

I'll pm you as I'm not sure of the rules.