Another shooting (Parkland High School)

[tacops]

On 2/23/2018 at 12:26 PM, GhstFace38 said:

I’ve been a police officer for 11 years, please understand that the actions of this one man do not represent the feelings of 99.9999% of law enforcement officers. The Officers I work with would be knocking each other over to get inside that building and engage that threat.

The public duty doctrine states that governmental entities have a duty to protect the populace as a whole, unless a special relationship is established. In this instance, a special relationship was established when those citizens relied upon that Officer for protection. He is liable, the department is liable.

Termination and prosecution would be my determination. He’s a disgrace.


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I have been sitting back reading some of the generalized comments on this thread that are painting LEOs with a very broad brush as a result of the despicable actions of this Officer. There may have been some extenuating circumstance driving his inaction, but I cannot honestly imagine what it would have been.  I retired from my Law Enforcement career after 25 years and yes, I have run to the gunfire on many occasions...and still do today as demonstrated last year in my community.  I entered my career in LE as a public servant, I swore to Serve and Protect the citizens, and did to the best of my ability.  I don't care what some court may have determined, it was my duty and I readily accepted such as do 99% of the Officers wearing a badge.  Yes, there is the 1% still out there that were hired and should not have been, and then retained through negligent retention.  Some of that 1% may well be "good people" but not cut out to be Officers for they are not of the "Sheepdog" mentality.   Let's take care and condemn the actions of the individual when warranted, not the profession.  Do not let the actions of a few soil the reputation of the whole.  We as gun owners in general fall prey to this every time some nimrod skins his ignorance with a firearm and anti-gunners lump all into the same pot.  Much as though some of the comments have done regarding LEOs.  With the information available, the Officer disgraced himself and the profession at a insurmountable cost.   

Prayers for those lost and their families, prayers for the 99% to endure and prevail, and the 1% to find another profession.

[Garufa]

10 minutes ago, AuEagle said:

Maybe this helps???

https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/public-duty-doctrine/

It does comrade.  I had no idea the individual was that unimportant.

[xsubsailor]

 On the flip side, meet a hero.

Meet Sgt. Jeff Heinrich of the Coral Springs Police Department.

Sgt. Heinrich was off duty and unarmed at the time of the attack last week at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., but he was on campus watering one of the school’s athletic fields in just shorts and a T-shirt. Sgt. Heinrich’s wife is an assistant athletic director at the school, his son is on the football team.

When he heard the shots — remember now, he’s unarmed — he dropped the hose and ran toward the sound of gunfire where he immediately helped a student who was wounded. Minutes later, he met up with a Coral Springs PD SWAT team member who gave him a vest and a backup weapon and the two of them then entered the school to help clear classrooms.

Get some tissues handy as Sgt. Heinrich gets emotional toward the end when he talks about not knowing if his wife and son were OK while he was busy saving others:

 

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2018/02/23/stop-what-youre-doing-and-watch-this-coral-springs-pd-officer-talk-about-responding-to-the-stoneman-douglas-hs-attack/

[GeorgeandSugar]

Duty to protect, not necessary.

https://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasler-protection.html


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[Garufa]

15 minutes ago, GeorgeandSugar said:

Duty to protect, not necessary.

https://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasler-protection.html


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Why do we even have police at all?  Most people in this country expect the government to protect them.  The “‘most” being the same that expect tighter gun control but the police/government are not obligated to protect them.

[DaveTN]

For those of you that are as old as I am, I will remind you of May 4th 1970 when a bunch of untrained kids faced a situation they weren’t trained to handle.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

[DaveTN]

3 minutes ago, Garufa said:

Why do we even have police at all? 

To do the very best they can do. 

[GeorgeandSugar]

Why do we even have police at all?  Most people in this country expect the government to protect them.  The “‘most” being the same that expect tighter gun control but the police/government are not obligated to protect them.

Community policing: arrest criminals and investigate crimes. It is this that most people do not get and likely why the Broward County sheriff department suits against them may fail.

If people knew this about the law, they might take a different view on firearms. The leftists won’t mention this, because it would likely destroy their anti-gun narrative.

To this day, I am perplexed as to why people across this country are so troubled by law-abiding citizens being armed? Perhaps when these same people are confronted by a criminal thug and survive, the thought of being armed may come to mind.


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[Omega]

7 hours ago, GeorgeandSugar said:

Community policing: arrest criminals and investigate crimes. It is this that most people do not get and likely why the Broward County sheriff department suits against them may fail.

If people knew this about the law, they might take a different view on firearms. The leftists won’t mention this, because it would likely destroy their anti-gun narrative.

That may very well come to light and open the eyes of a few when/if this goes to court.  I don't expect it to turn any of the hardcore anti-gunners, but some of the sheeple may just become sheepdogs.  

[volshayes]

A chronological list of the governmental failures at the link below.  - But it's the NRA and the millions of citizens who lawfully possess weapons fault.

https://www.theblaze.com/video/glenn-breaks-down-the-parkland-shooting-timeline-this-was-a-massive-failure-of-the-system

Broward County Schools PROMISE Program was a result of an Executive Order in August of 2012 issued by Obama establishing the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence.  The shooter would have been arrested for carrying a knife and ammunition on school property had it not been for the PROMISE program established by Broward County Schools.

[jgradyc]

Since Columbine, I've given these shooter situations a lot of thought. What would I do if it were a mall, a school, a theatre? Each situation is different. 

Most "conversations" about engaging shooters sound like the shootout at the OK Corral. I don't think that's the smart way for a civilian to engage a shooter.

I don't know how I would react in a real situation, but here is the plan. In a school, I would move towards the sound of gunfire. Upon seeing the shooter, I would look for a defensive position and only then open fire, firing 2-3 rounds. At that point, he's either hit, returns fire, or retreats. Regardless, he stops shooting at kids. I can then wait for law enforcement to arrive. I'm not going Wyatt Earp on a guy by standing in the middle of a hallway and shooting when I only have a handgun and he has a rifle.

In a mall, my first responsibility would be to get my wife to safety. I'm not engaging a shooter. Almost everyone at the mall has the opportunity to get a HCP. If they chose not to carry, their failure to make a choice to defend themselves and their family is not my responsibility. Sorry.

In a theater, everyone is a duck in a shooting gallery. That's why I stopped going to crowded theaters after Aurora. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by jgradyc

[Chucktshoes]

Here’s some interesting data. 

https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/schools-are-still-one-of-the-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

 

Quote

“This is not an epidemic”

Mass school shootings are incredibly rare events. In research publishing later this year, Fox and doctoral student Emma Fridel found that on average, mass murders occur between 20 and 30 times per year, and about one of those incidents on average takes place at a school.

 

Fridel and Fox used data collected by USA Today, the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Report, Congressional Research Service, Gun Violence Archive, Stanford Geospatial Center and Stanford Libraries, Mother Jones, Everytown for Gun Safety, and a NYPD report on active shooters.

Their research also finds that shooting incidents involving students have been declining since the 1990s.

 

 

 

Check their sources as well. Thats a hell of an outcome for such a biased data set to work with. 

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Chucktshoes

[peejman]

7 hours ago, jgradyc said:

Upon seeing the shooter, I would look for a defensive position and only then open fire, firing 2-3 rounds. At that point, he's either hit, returns fire, or retreats.

Have you seen this thread? 

 

[jgradyc]

5 hours ago, peejman said:

Have you seen this thread? 

 

This is a much different scenario. In that liquor store, retreat/shelter was impossible and the perp was 6 feet away. Of course, you'd keep shooting. In a school, if you were moving towards gunfire, your first contact could be at 100 feet or more down a hallway. He has a rifle. I have a concealed carry single stack auto. I have the tactical advantage of surprise for 2-3 shots, after that, the advantage goes to him in a firefight. But if I immediately take a defensive position, he can't leave that classroom without being a target. I've stopped the shooting. If I were a better shot and I carried a hi-cap magazine, it might be different... but I'm not and I don't. 

[peejman]

13 hours ago, jgradyc said:

This is a much different scenario. In that liquor store, retreat/shelter was impossible and the perp was 6 feet away. Of course, you'd keep shooting. In a school, if you were moving towards gunfire, your first contact could be at 100 feet or more down a hallway. He has a rifle. I have a concealed carry single stack auto. I have the tactical advantage of surprise for 2-3 shots, after that, the advantage goes to him in a firefight. But if I immediately take a defensive position, he can't leave that classroom without being a target. I've stopped the shooting. If I were a better shot and I carried a hi-cap magazine, it might be different... but I'm not and I don't. 

I understand the motive to keep them occupied and buy time until the cavalry arrives.  But if they were unaware and in the open, I wouldn't stop at 2-3 shots unless they were down.  

[bersaguy]

14 hours ago, jgradyc said:

This is a much different scenario. In that liquor store, retreat/shelter was impossible and the perp was 6 feet away. Of course, you'd keep shooting. In a school, if you were moving towards gunfire, your first contact could be at 100 feet or more down a hallway. He has a rifle. I have a concealed carry single stack auto. I have the tactical advantage of surprise for 2-3 shots, after that, the advantage goes to him in a firefight. But if I immediately take a defensive position, he can't leave that classroom without being a target. I've stopped the shooting. If I were a better shot and I carried a hi-cap magazine, it might be different... but I'm not and I don't. 

I use to just carry a Bersa Thunder Single stack most places but it the lst year or so I have began putting 1 or 2 back up magazines in my pocket for that "Just in case situation" that might show up or I just carry the 85 double stack. I doubt I will ever be in a school or a Mall or being in a situation the would require more than 1 magazine but these days one never knows..............JMHO

[jgradyc]

29 minutes ago, peejman said:

I understand the motive to keep them occupied and buy time until the cavalry arrives.  But if they were unaware and in the open, I wouldn't stop at 2-3 shots unless they were down.  

I understand your point, but I only have 7 shots total. If I had 17 or if I also carried a spare mag, it might be different. If the perp is really close, then, yeah, keep shooting.

[Omega]

On 2/24/2018 at 8:32 PM, DaveTN said:

For those of you that are as old as I am, I will remind you of May 4th 1970 when a bunch of untrained kids faced a situation they weren’t trained to handle.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

Oh, we have learned quite a bit, we are now better trained in marksmanship to make every round count.  Reading the account via a few sources, I'm surprised there wasn't more done to stop these criminals from burning and looting in the town and school before the shooting took place. 

[gjohnsoniv]

1 hour ago, jgradyc said:

I understand your point, but I only have 7 shots total. If I had 17 or if I also carried a spare mag, it might be different. If the perp is really close, then, yeah, keep shooting.

A spare mag or two is always a good plan, not just from the spare round point of view but also a mechanical failure of the magazine. 

[peejman]

2 hours ago, jgradyc said:

I understand your point, but I only have 7 shots total. If I had 17 or if I also carried a spare mag, it might be different. If the perp is really close, then, yeah, keep shooting.

I almost always have a spare mag when I carry a single stack, only sometimes when I have a double stack. I probably should carry a spare all the time. 

If there's the need and opportunity to use all 7 rounds, use them. Obviously don't just spray and pray, but there's not much point in saving them for later. 

[Ahitchc4]

Did anyone else see the report saying Cruz’s AR-15 May have jammed and he only took 10 round magazines because that’s all that would fit in his duffel bag? Not sure if that’s true but if it is that’s interesting. I’m pretty sure it was an S&W.

[Omega]

1 hour ago, Ahitchc4 said:

Did anyone else see the report saying Cruz’s AR-15 May have jammed and he only took 10 round magazines because that’s all that would fit in his duffel bag? Not sure if that’s true but if it is that’s interesting. I’m pretty sure it was an S&W.

If it is the call to restrict magazines to 5 rounds will be right around the corner.

[jgradyc]

Let me explain my rationale. In a school, hallways can be 200 feet long. Just from one classroom door to another is more than 30 feet. If you engage a school shooter, it's likely to be somewhere in between those distances. If I fire all 7 rounds from 3 doors down (90+ feet), I'm out of the fight. The shooter can advance on me or run away. He can shoot more kids.

If I still have 4 rounds, he is trapped. He can't come towards me down the hallway or retreat without being a target. He can't shoot any more kids. That's really the objective. 

Now, if I turn a corner and the shooter is 10 feet away, well, I might as well empty the mag because one of us is going down real quick.

Edited March 1, 2018 by jgradyc

[scooter]

On 2/28/2018 at 1:56 PM, Ahitchc4 said:

Did anyone else see the report saying Cruz’s AR-15 May have jammed and he only took 10 round magazines because that’s all that would fit in his duffel bag? Not sure if that’s true but if it is that’s interesting. I’m pretty sure it was an S&W.

Here is the source for that: Florida school shooter’s AR-15 may have jammed, saving lives, report says

[Garufa]

27 minutes ago, scooter said:

Here is the source for that: Florida school shooter’s AR-15 may have jammed, saving lives, report says

Thank you.  I really wish people would start posting the sources of “what they heard”.

That being said, I think the article is BS.  So because he still had ammo his gun jammed?

Edited March 2, 2018 by Garufa