Another shooting (Parkland High School)

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, GhstFace38 said:

I’ve been a police officer for 11 years, please understand that the actions of this one man do not represent the feelings of 99.9999% of law enforcement officers. The Officers I work with would be knocking each other over to get inside that building and engage that threat.

The public duty doctrine states that governmental entities have a duty to protect the populace as a whole, unless a special relationship is established. In this instance, a special relationship was established when those citizens relied upon that Officer for protection. He is liable, the department is liable.

Termination and prosecution would be my determination. He’s a disgrace.


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Thank you for your service. I never would have thought a patrol Officer would fail to engage a shooter while kids were being killed any more than I would have thought an HCP holder would stand over an Officer and execute him. Unfortunately both have happened; fortunately neither is the norm.

[GlockSpock]

Thank you for your service. I never would have thought a patrol Officer would fail to engage a shooter while kids were being killed any more than I would have thought an HCP holder would stand over an Officer and execute him. Unfortunately both have happened; fortunately neither is the norm.

I’m not excusing what he did (fail to engage) anymore than anyone else here, but I’ve been questioning the following. Considering that multiple times over the years, the various response from various LE has been to barricade and contain while SWAT later engages. Sometimes LE has been on the scene for quite a long time before actively seeking and engaging an active shooter.

I wonder if, via via any training, presentations, etc that the officer honestly thought he was doing “the right thing”? Honest, sincere question.

I know what the majority of us would have done (I think most would have done) in his situation, but seeing as I’ve never been in that environment I suppose I couldn’t guarantee what I’d do. I know what the moral thing to do would be: Give all it takes to save the kids.


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[peejman]

42 minutes ago, CZ9MM said:

 

I’m not excusing what he did (fail to engage) anymore than anyone else here, but I’ve been questioning the following. Considering that multiple times over the years, the various response from various LE has been to barricade and contain while SWAT later engages. Sometimes LE has been on the scene for quite a long time before actively seeking and engaging an active shooter.

I wonder if, via via any training, presentations, etc that the officer honestly thought he was doing “the right thing”? Honest, sincere question.

I know what the majority of us would have done (I think most would have done) in his situation, but seeing as I’ve never been in that environment I suppose I couldn’t guarantee what I’d do. I know what the moral thing to do would be: Give all it takes to save the kids.


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My understanding is that those "wait for the cavalry" tactics have changed. They've recognized that the longer you wait in such a situation, the more people die. Get in and engage the threat immediately with whatever you've got on hand. Most crumple at the first sign of real resistance. 

[GlockSpock]

My understanding is that those "wait for the cavalry" tactics have changed. They've recognized that the longer you wait in such a situation, the more people die. Get in and engage the threat immediately with whatever you've got on hand. Most crumple at the first sign of real resistance. 

I hope so.


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[GhstFace38]

Tactics changed after Columbine. Up to that point it was “create a perimeter, wait for SWAT”. Since then it’s changed a few times... from “wait for a 5 man team” to “wait for a 4 man team-diamond formation” to now, first there first in. Most of these mass killers crumble at the first sign of authority.


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[SWCUMBERLAND]

4 hours ago, Whisper said:

One of the thing that strongly concerns me is that school shootings by kids in the US reinforce to our overseas enemies how easily those things are accomplished.  I fear it is only a matter of time until we see a Beslan-type assault on an elementary school by jihadists who have some training and who are ready to lose their lives in the process.  A school where the SRO is afraid to engage a lone teenager isn't going to fare well in a situation like that.

Look at Israel.  You see terror attacks there -- with guns, knives, bombs, rockets -- on a regular basis.  But the last shooting at a school in Israel was March 2008.  Their schools are not soft targets.

Okay, THAT felt like a foot over the grave...

The book you want is DAY OF WRATH by Willaim Forchtner. DO NOT read chapter 14 without an empty stomach, and a sedative in the shape of an adult beverage with a 40+ proof...

There are three personae in the world these days.... sheep, sheepdog, and wolf. The bulk of this forum is sheepdogs.  I too have run in when everyone else has run out, and here I am still. Deal with it.

IF an SRO  or cop hung back during this carnage, it seems to me he'll get off extraordinarily light by fleeing some more, changing his/her/its name and looking over its shoulder for the rest of its excessive life.

Would that this system, btw, allowed multiple likes ... the I REFUSE was fantastic, accurate and just.

SWC, finishing up in Vegas and looking forward to Lynchburg

 

 

[DaveTN]

4 hours ago, CZ9MM said:

 

I’m not excusing what he did (fail to engage) anymore than anyone else here, but I’ve been questioning the following. Considering that multiple times over the years, the various response from various LE has been to barricade and contain while SWAT later engages. Sometimes LE has been on the scene for quite a long time before actively seeking and engaging an active shooter.

I wonder if, via via any training, presentations, etc that the officer honestly thought he was doing “the right thing”? Honest, sincere question.

I know what the majority of us would have done (I think most would have done) in his situation, but seeing as I’ve never been in that environment I suppose I couldn’t guarantee what I’d do. I know what the moral thing to do would be: Give all it takes to save the kids.


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Since shortly after Columbine (18 years ago) the response for a school shooting has been for the arriving Officers to enter and engage the shooter. It probably won’t last long enough for SWAT to get involved. This one lasted six minutes.

I hate to Judge this Deputy because we don’t know what happened. We don’t know because he has refused to make a statement.

This Deputy apparently had enough time at BSO to retire. I would assume he wasn’t trained to wait based on the statements from his boss; the Sheriff.

I have such mixed emotions. It's sad. I feel for this guy. He froze and the haters and the MSM is going to drive him into the ground. But maybe some lives would have been saved had he acted.

Quote

 

“He never went in,” Sheriff Israel said in a news conference. He said the video showed Deputy Peterson doing “nothing.”

“There are no words,” said Sheriff Israel, who described himself as “devastated, sick to my stomach.”

 

 

[xsubsailor]

 It just keeps getting worse 

A total of four Broward County Sheriff’s deputies failed to enter Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., during last week's mass shooting, according to a new report.

On Friday, it was reported that Broward County Sheriff’s Deputy Scot Peterson, who served as the armed school resource officer, did not enter the school as the shooting occurred.

But Peterson wasn’t the only one — three other Broward County Sheriff’s deputies also remained outside the school with their pistols drawn as they took cover behind their vehicles, CNN reports.

Additionally, the Coral Springs police officers who arrived at the school later were frustrated and surprised that the sheriff’s deputies did not accompany them as they entered the school, sources told CNN.

It’s uncertain if the shooter was present in the building once the Coral Springs police reached the school.

 

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/four-broward-county-sheriffs-deputies-failed-to-enter-florida-high-school-during-shooting-report/article/2649914

[gregintenn]

Good grief!

[SWCUMBERLAND]

1 hour ago, xsubsailor said:

 It just keeps getting worse 

A total of four Broward County Sheriff’s deputies failed to enter Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., during last week's mass shooting, according to a new report.

On Friday, it was reported that Broward County Sheriff’s Deputy Scot Peterson, who served as the armed school resource officer, did not enter the school as the shooting occurred.

But Peterson wasn’t the only one — three other Broward County Sheriff’s deputies also remained outside the school with their pistols drawn as they took cover behind their vehicles, CNN reports.

Additionally, the Coral Springs police officers who arrived at the school later were frustrated and surprised that the sheriff’s deputies did not accompany them as they entered the school, sources told CNN.

It’s uncertain if the shooter was present in the building once the Coral Springs police reached the school.

 

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/four-broward-county-sheriffs-deputies-failed-to-enter-florida-high-school-during-shooting-report/article/2649914

The only marignally feasible explaination I can seeeis that the follow-on Broward cops got the word, somehow, that it was a hostage situation and not an active shooter. I have my doubts as to "uncertain if the shooter was present in the building once the Coral Springs police reached the school",  in as much as the authorities were able to fine down rather quickly the movements of the SRO.

I'm no expert, never claimed to be one, not gonna start at this late date. There may be factors in play not yet out in public consumption....I can't say, I left my Kreskin hat with my other suit. What it sure's gravity is gonna start to look like is the the Broward Sherriff's Department as the Keystone Kops... worse, for all their bumbling, the KK's at least were DOING.

Does anyone have any other possible -illity as to why all this?

SWC

 

[DaveTN]

10 hours ago, SWCUMBERLAND said:

I'm no expert, never claimed to be one, not gonna start at this late date. There may be factors in play not yet out in public consumption....I can't say, I left my Kreskin hat with my other suit. What it sure's gravity is gonna start to look like is the the Broward Sherriff's Department as the Keystone Kops... worse, for all their bumbling, the KK's at least were DOING.

Does anyone have any other possible -illity as to why all this?

The only ones that know what they did and why are the Deputies/Officers that were there. The Sheriff and the Chiefs involved need to let these responders speak out.

I can understand one Deputy freezing; but not four. They need to answer the question as to why they didn’t enter the school and engage the shooter.

[volshayes]

Be sure to read the ENTIRE unclassified FBI transcript that can be accessed by the link in the last line of the following article ("Read the FBI tipster's transcript here.")

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/02/24/heres-the-tip-the-fbi-received-about-florida-shooter-just-last-month-its-chilling-and-ominous

 

[xsubsailor]

 And this is why it will happen again 

ALTON — Authorities have charged an Alton High School student with a felony of disorderly conduct for allegedly threatening to “shoot up the place.”

Justin L. Glen-Colley, 18, of the 700 block of Oakwood Avenue, Alton, was accused of threatening violence to people at the school in the presence of AHS faculty and staff. Authorities said he was quickly isolated. Bail was set at $20,000.

The incident occurred Wednesday, and Glen-Colley was charged Thursday. Glen-Colley was not in custody as of Friday.

There was no need to lockdown the school because the situation was secure, an attorney with the Madison County State’s Attorney’s Office said.

The suspect was escorted from school property and sent home. He is charged with a class 4 felony, punishable by a prison term of between one and three years. He may also be sentenced to up to 30 months probation.

School officials could not be reached for comment Friday to determine what, if any, action will be taken by the district.

http://www.thetelegraph.com/news/118194/ahs-student-charged-with-felony-after-allegedly-threatening-to-shoot-up-the-place

[DaveTN]

12 minutes ago, xsubsailor said:

 The suspect was escorted from school property and sent home.

Some folks are a little slower than others it seems.

[AuEagle]

How Israel prevents school shootings.

 

https://www.westernjournal.com/israel-2-school-attacks-44-years-heres-make-sure-kids-safe/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=blackwell&utm_campaign=can&utm_content=2018-02-22

[DaveTN]

12 minutes ago, AuEagle said:

How Israel prevents school shootings.

Unless you want gun control I don’t think we want to use Israel as an example.

[Omega]

30 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Unless you want gun control I don’t think we want to use Israel as an example.

Why not?  They hardened their schools, nobody is saying to copy anything else. 

[AuEagle]

33 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Unless you want gun control I don’t think we want to use Israel as an example.

Where does their procedure to protect their schools have anything to do with gun control?

[DaveTN]

22 minutes ago, Omega said:

Why not?  They hardened their schools, nobody is saying to copy anything else. 

 

19 minutes ago, AuEagle said:

Where does their procedure to protect their schools have anything to do with gun control?

Israel has strict gun control. You can’t point to fewer school shooting and say their gun control has nothing to do with it; it has everything to do with it. We do not want to copy Israel.

[Omega]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

 

Israel has strict gun control. You can’t point to fewer school shooting and say their gun control has nothing to do with it; it has everything to do with it. We do not want to copy Israel.

Of course, because terrorists follow laws so well.  The biggest reason is that it's a hardened target, and successful attack is not assured.  

[GeorgeandSugar]

Watching Jesse Water’s and Ann Coulter suggested according to her that 47% of these mass shooting involve first and second generation immigrants and that 98% of mass shooting occur in “gun-free zones.” This hasn’t been fact-checked, but is an interesting stat on 1st and 2nd generation immigrants.


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[GeorgeandSugar]

I’ve been a police officer for 11 years, please understand that the actions of this one man do not represent the feelings of 99.9999% of law enforcement officers. The Officers I work with would be knocking each other over to get inside that building and engage that threat.

The public duty doctrine states that governmental entities have a duty to protect the populace as a whole, unless a special relationship is established. In this instance, a special relationship was established when those citizens relied upon that Officer for protection. He is liable, the department is liable.

Termination and prosecution would be my determination. He’s a disgrace.


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Do police officers and deputies have automatic weapons and tactic shotguns, tactical vests, body armor and other tactical gear in their vehicles? I recall reading many years ago when police were out-gunned, I believe in LA and after that automatic weapons were added to have equivalent force. Does not appear the deputies had any additional firepower, those that were outside and did not enter.


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[Garufa]

On 2/23/2018 at 12:26 PM, GhstFace38 said:

The public duty doctrine states that governmental entities have a duty to protect the populace as a whole, unless a special relationship is established. In this instance, a special relationship was established when those citizens relied upon that Officer for protection. He is liable, the department is liable

What is this “public duty doctrine” you speak of?  And why the “unless”?

[Chucktshoes]

28 minutes ago, GeorgeandSugar said:

Watching Jesse Water’s and Ann Coulter suggested according to her that 47% of these mass shooting involve first and second generation immigrants and that 98% of mass shooting occur in “gun-free zones.” This hasn’t been fact-checked, but is an interesting stat on 1st and 2nd generation immigrants.


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That’s an interesting way of saying that the majority of these incidents are by at least 3rd generation ‘Americans’, or as I like to call them, ‘white people’.

[AuEagle]

2 minutes ago, Garufa said:

What is this “public duty doctrine” you speak of?  And why the “unless”?

Maybe this helps???

https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/public-duty-doctrine/