Another shooting (Parkland High School)

[DaveTN]

Well we know what won’t work; a gun ban. There are just too many AR’s (and other guns they would try to ban) out there. A person that wanted to do this could get a gun. Especially someone that had the financial resources of the Vegas mass murderer.

I watched Senator Bill Nelson from Florida call for gun control last night. He said he was a supporter of the 2nd amendment and a hunter, but that an AR is made for killing not for hunting. So apparently Senator Nelson thinks the 2nd amendment protects his right to hunt. That is pretty sad itself; but the fact that he is a lawmaker and doesn’t understand the United States Constitution makes it worse.

Yes, the AR is a civilian version of the M16 that was engineered and designed as an assault rifle for killing people in combat. It is also a very effective weapon is engaging an active shooter in our children’s school or protecting your family from violent attacks (that law enforcement cannot protect them from).

Some terrorists are using vehicles instead of guns or bombs. Some are using knives. Those work also.

The core problem is family values, morals, religious beliefs, and no fear of legal prosecution.

Many people seem to think our constitutional rights keep the Police from getting involved if no crime has been committed. I strongly disagree. Police involvement doesn’t mean the nut case won’t go off the rails and kill anyway. If they know they are going to die they don’t fear the Police or anyone else. But it may get someone involved that can make a difference.

We recently had a post on here about a suspicious person. When I was a cop I would have ran the plate number and went to his house and had a talk. Would he have to talk to me? Of course not. But we would be way ahead of where we were, and on our way to being able to take some action.

It didn’t surprise me that the kids knew this guy was a nut case, as I’ve said before, ask your kids who the nut jobs are in their school and they will tell you.

What did concern me a little was the calmness these kids showed in telling what happened. When I was a cop (many years ago) kids would be very emotional after witnessing a violent act and had trouble talking about it.  

Our kids need help, but that’s a separate issue from mass murderers. Our schools and workplaces need the ability to engage and kill an active shooter. Not have to wait until he gets done killing people and takes his own life.

[Dolomite_supafly]

One of biggest problems is political correctness. When we, as a society, see a problem we are afraid to say something. Our kids are being taught that it is wrong to say something when something is wrong. Fellow students knew the shooter had a problem but they were too afraid to say anything out of fear of being labeled. We must stand up and say what must be said. Sitting back whispering will change nothing, we must scream and point fingers when there is a problem.

Mental health is an issue but it is not as big of an issue as we are lead to believe. We have always had crazy people doing crazy things and that will never change. The problem we do have is the drugs for "mental" conditions are being over prescribed and those drugs cause just as much of a problem as the underlying "mental" condition itself. Life sucks for most people on the planet but here in the US we are so spoiled that we think we have it bad. In comes the pharmaceutical companies with a little pill that they promise will make life suck less, it doesn't. Young children are diagnosed with a disease when they show signs of an active imagination and the parents are told they MUST give those kids prescription drugs to cure their active imaginations. Most of the mass shooters have been on a cocktail of these drugs prior to going on a shooting rampage. And I bet the shooter will also be on those same drugs or at least prescribed those drugs at some point. The pharmaceutical companies, and their urge to get richer, are the ones pushing people to believe there is a mental health crisis. There are no more crazy people, just more diagnoses that require more prescription medications to treat. The pharmaceutical companies are also the ones responsible for pushing, for profit, the drugs that has caused the opioid crisis that is killing hundreds every single day. We do have a problem but we do not have a mental health problem in the United States, we have a problem with corporate drug dealers whose only concern is profits from selling dangerous drugs.

 

 

[DaveTN]

37 minutes ago, peejman said:

When are we going to get serious about school security?  If children are our most precious resource, why do we box them up and leave them largely unprotected?  Walmart has better security than a lot of schools. It's pitiful.  

Would a police car sitting in front of the building have sent him somewhere else? Would someone monitoring security cameras be able to call in the cavalry in enough time to catch it before it started?  How did someone with no business being there even get within shouting distance of the building?  

I live a few blocks from a school that has a Police car sitting in front a lot. It makes people hit the brakes a lot, but those of us that live in the area know there is no one in it.

Securing the building is a start, but it’s not a fix for someone that is a student. Even metal detectors won’t work if someone inside can open a door to let a shooter in. They need to be prepared for an active shooter that is in the building. I only know one fix for that.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Shooter was an ANTIFA member.

[DaveTN]

13 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Pretty tastelss headline by Fox. "BLOODBATH".

Did they have better ones on CNN and MSNBC?

13 hours ago, Erik88 said:

As far as the gun free zone. It's a high school. Other than putting an officer in every school I'm really not sure what the solution would be. Even that isn't a guarantee. There was an officer at Pulse Nightclub too..

The Officer at Pulse took a full on attack before he had time to react. That could happen to a school resource Officer also, but with most schools they would/should have more time when seeing someone approaching the school.

Will anything we do stop the person that wants to kill kids and is willing to die to do it? Probably not, but it is better than doing nothing. You are correct; there are no guarantees. 

 

[tercel89]

12 hours ago, DaveTN said:

It’s Florida; as soon as they have what they need they will fry him or stick a needle in him.

I say fry him and "don't wet the sponge" 

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

I always wonder where the parents/grandparents/friends where or why they did nothing? He had a social media account.Seems to me that if you are involved in your kids life,and they post stuff like that, they would have reacted sooner or at least got him some help... I cannot imagine as a parent to look away or think this is just a phase.What about other kids on his FB page? did anyone say anything before this happen? 

 

 

 

[Erik88]

40 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Did they have better ones on CNN and MSNBC?

The Officer at Pulse took a full on attack before he had time to react. That could happen to a school resource Officer also, but with most schools they would/should have more time when seeing someone approaching the school.

Will anything we do stop the person that wants to kill kids and is willing to die to do it? Probably not, but it is better than doing nothing. You are correct; there are no guarantees. 

 

In regards to CNN, yes actually. Didn't check MSNBC last night. Just thought it was in poor taste, not that CNN isn't guilty of doing the same thing.

Anyways, I didn't ever hear what happened with the officer at Pulse. Thanks for clearing that up. I agree with your assessment that our schools are easy targets. I'd like to see funding set aside to make schools more secure.

[DaveTN]

7 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I agree with your assessment that our schools are easy targets. I'd like to see funding set aside to make schools more secure.

As someone was describing the town to a FOX reporter they described it as a community filled with million dollar homes and no crime. Does that sound like a community that couldn’t afford to protect their schools? Of course not; this was not a funding issue. They didn’t think it would happen to them and it did. They (and maybe others that learn) will have protections in place soon.

[n0rlf]

28 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

As someone was describing the town to a FOX reporter they described it as a community filled with million dollar homes and no crime. Does that sound like a community that couldn’t afford to protect their schools? Of course not; this was not a funding issue. They didn’t think it would happen to them and it did. They (and maybe others that learn) will have protections in place soon.

And that was a contributing factor to his mental state I would think. The have's showing off to the have not's is what a couple of the students mentioned. 

Kds can be cruel and mean and are geting all kinds of mixed signals from social media. Take the damn phones away for a bit and see if society improves.

 

[Chucktshoes]

The fbi had been alerted to him last year. 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasacks/the-fbi-was-warned-about-a-school-shooting-threat-from

[bersaguy]

I have read most all the posts in this thread and many of them touch on the fact of security at what ever facility is being effected whether it be a school or the Pulse Nightclub or even the theater in Colorado. In each case they were gun free zones except for the Pluse Nightclub which bascially was when the shooting began because the security office was the first person killed. The theater in Colorado was the only gun free movie theater in that Colorado town that was chosen. Until the State Local and Federal Govenments do away with the Killing fields ( Gun Free Zones) these issues will continue. I have heard many people say that our children are our most valuable asset in our future. How about proving that! How about putting actual real security in each and every school to protect our most valuable assets????? 1 police car parked in front of a school is not security. 1 resource officer is not school security! 1 Security Officer in a nightclub is not security. They are the 1st target!!!!! .................JMHO

[hipower]

I can offer nothing better than has already been said on this. So I'll just continue to pray for these kids, their parents, and our nation. Amen.

[DaveTN]

In the near future there will be discussions about the civil liberties of private citizens and far we want to go. As a former Police Officer I do not believe we have to violate anyone’s Constitutional Rights when they threaten violence. When you say or post “I’m going to be a professional school shooter” you have crossed the line from Constitutional Rights to Reasonable Suspicion that a crime is about to be committed. That warrants Police involvement. Anything less is unreasonable.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Another HUGE problem with putting officers in schools is the fact they are generally the least experienced and least trusted within the department. They have an officer they can't trust to be on the road and they can't fire them so they stick them in the school as a resource officer hoping they will never be called upon. They are generally the least paid of any officers as well as the least qualified. They are there only because it is cheaper than private, armed security.

Privatize the security for schools and require qualifications that are commensurate with the pay increase. Children are the most vulnerable in our society and our government does everything the cheapest it can on behalf of the children. Everything the government does is done according to who the lowest bidder is. And those bids are generally overshot as well as the time needed to complete. Get the government out of our children's lives, out of their school system and quit letting them use the least qualified personnel to protect them.

We have thousands of veterans who are desperate for work. They have the training, skills as well as the mental attitude to deal with situations like this. Hire them, pay them WELL and give them the tools (firearms) they need to keep our children safe. All you have to do is look to Israel to see how our society could be. Everyone there is armed, including teachers, and the only attacks come from terrorists and not from little snot nosed kids who's mommy didn't show him how to be an adult.

When the #### will our leaders learn the gun free zones are free fire zones where people die.

 

[SWCUMBERLAND]

3 hours ago, peejman said:

When are we going to get serious about school security?  If children are our most precious resource, why do we box them up and leave them largely unprotected?  Walmart has better security than a lot of schools. It's pitiful.  

Would a police car sitting in front of the building have sent him somewhere else? Would someone monitoring security cameras be able to call in the cavalry in enough time to catch it before it started?  How did someone with no business being there even get within shouting distance of the building?  

Just before I left WM, thier policy on active shooters was ADD... Avoid, Deny, Defend

Avoid... Hide from the guy. For example, if you were in a room with a windowed door, shut off the light, lock the door and stay out of the windows' sight.

Deny... get customers and staff the hell out of the store. Block his mobility (shopping carts, displays, whatever)

Defend... if no other choice, throw things at him, fight him, do NOT fight fair.

The "do not fight fair" line always cracked me up... SOB has a gun., damn right I am not gonna fight fair. What, I'm supposed to give him an engraved invite to a duel?

 

This twisto did not fight fair, he flushed the game by activating the fire alarm. Most schools have designated areas for each classroom to go to, and if he was a prior student there, probably he knew where they were... the analogy that gun free zones are "human hunting areas" was most accurate here.

 

I got a look at this guy's face on another website... nobody home in them eyes.

 

I cannot speak to how he got started on this, nor do I care. Two two man teams of armed security that knew the ground would have been enough to take care of this with properly placed headshots. And candidly, that's what you are going to need going forward. NOT mallcop wannabe rambos that get rotated to new sites every week. Dedicated teams. Add if it means closed campuses, fine too. Rather have my kid eating at a cafeteria table than laying on a coroner's table.

I stand by my prior statement: Hang him, publicly, openly. Multiple murder such as this cannot be given to a jury. This should be a bench trial. Injection or electrocution, far from the public eye, is NOT "civilized". "Modern", maybe. I recall that Texas was working on a law to where if the preponderance of the evidence showed the murders taking place, you got one appeal after sentence within 60 days,  and a needle in your arm within 30 days after if the appeal still had you guilty.

If nothing else, hanging shows the State exercising fiscal responsibility ...."This is one joker we are not feeding, housing, guarding, and paying a public defender to defend for years and years, and using a long proven and inexpensive process."

 

my two bits.

 

SWC

 

[DaveTN]

21 minutes ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

Another HUGE problem with putting officers in schools is the fact they are generally the least experienced and least trusted within the department. They have an officer they can't trust to be on the road and they can't fire them so they stick them in the school as a resource officer hoping they will never be called upon. They are generally the least paid of any officers as well as the least qualified. They are there only because it is cheaper than private, armed security.

Privatize the security for schools and require qualifications that are commensurate with the pay increase. Children are the most vulnerable in our society and our government does everything the cheapest it can on behalf of the children. Everything the government does is done according to who the lowest bidder is. And those bids are generally overshot as well as the time needed to complete. Get the government out of our children's lives, out of their school system and quit letting them use the least qualified personnel to protect them.

We have thousands of veterans who are desperate for work. They have the training, skills as well as the mental attitude to deal with situations like this. Hire them, pay them WELL and give them the tools (firearms) they need to keep our children safe. All you have to do is look to Israel to see how our society could be. Everyone there is armed, including teachers, and the only attacks come from terrorists and not from little snot nosed kids who's mommy didn't show him how to be an adult.

When the #### will our leaders learn the gun free zones are free fire zones where people die.

 

I guess that would depend on the Department and where you are. Our school liaison Officers were Officers that had proven themselves with many years on the streets, most had been in the Detective Bureau as Juvenile Officers, and was some of the highest paid Patrolmen we had. The next step for most of them was Sergeant; which would remove them from the schools.

Private Security is not necessarily the answer IMO, unless it pertains to teachers that are willing to go to the same training side by side with Police Officers and be allowed to carry and be part of the security force in their school. I believe many teachers would be willing to do that. I don’t think many parents will accept anything less when it comes to people carrying guns around their kids.

[Mr.Mildot]

Most people in this world could be given a million machineguns and a billion rounds of ammo, but would never even dream of murdering another human being...many trained soldiers and police officers find it hard to kill even when trained to and under proper authority with justification.

Then there are people that blow themselves up to murder children.  Or shoot up a bunch of students over some insult or discipline.

Dealing with the latter group is the crux of the problem, not the former.  And no amount of physical security will stop all threats, the very nature of physical security measures is that they are often reactionary as you can never plan for all the possibilities of things evil people might do to others.

Allowing school staff who want to to arm up, get a training stipend and be prepared to defend is the best solution for school safety in the immediate future.  The only thing stopping many school staff from bringing a gun to school for defense is the fear of loosing a good job, but the fear of loosing a good job would not stop them from bringing a gun to school to kill their students.  Therefore the old axiom applies, only the bad guys have guns there...

 

[Sidecarist]

The media goes directly to blaming things like the weapon. This is a symptom of the current political correctness where it isn't acceptable to blame the Person that committed the act. Regardless of age we know it's wrong to kill other people, but the numbness caused by constant exposure to violence on Movies, TV and Games has caused many of these kids to simply not care, or react to it with the outrage that most of our older generations do. It's simply just the way they perceive the world.

Many of these shootings if not all of them have a mental health aspect to them. Notice that there is a constant drum of the FBI was notified, someone should have known. There must be a way to use social media to predict this sort of thing. This scares the crap out of me because it smacks of "thought police" Yet again the blame is being directed somewhere other than at the Perpetrator.

This young mans father and mother are both dead, his mother raised him, he is in counseling, has been called emotionally disturbed, etc. I have yet to hear anyone in the media, or government say he is plain and simple a murderer.

As a society there has been a shift away from Personal Responsibility. I fear that the next few generations will suffer greatly because of this. We will have the government Surveilling us, banning the weapons we enjoy responsibly using, and our grand kids will grow up thinking that this is just how things are.

I know this is preaching to the choir but I am deeply saddened by this, by the fact that we have so many adults and children in our wonderful country that think that they are owed something, and if they don't get it they'll go out with a bang. No personal responsibility, and our elected officials don't have the integrity to point out that an Evil Person did this and that there really is no way to prevent an evil person from committing acts of evil.

This is a problem that has taken several generations to create and I fear that we have gone past the point of no return.

[jgradyc]

At the risk of really making some people mad, it seems to me the solution would be to profile these shooters and restrict their access to firearms. 

This would mean raising the age to own a semiautomatic weapon or any handgun to 26 and older. People under 26 could own single shot rifles and shotguns. 

[gregintenn]

9 minutes ago, jgradyc said:

At the risk of really making some people mad, it seems to me the solution would be to profile these shooters and restrict their access to firearms. 

This would mean raising the age to own a semiautomatic weapon or any handgun to 26 and older. People under 26 could own single shot rifles and shotguns. 

Why 26?

[Garufa]

2 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Why 26?

The human brain is fully developed around age 25, then it’s all downhill from there.  Maybe 26 was a typo.

[bersaguy]

4 hours ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

Another HUGE problem with putting officers in schools is the fact they are generally the least experienced and least trusted within the department. They have an officer they can't trust to be on the road and they can't fire them so they stick them in the school as a resource officer hoping they will never be called upon. They are generally the least paid of any officers as well as the least qualified. They are there only because it is cheaper than private, armed security.

Privatize the security for schools and require qualifications that are commensurate with the pay increase. Children are the most vulnerable in our society and our government does everything the cheapest it can on behalf of the children. Everything the government does is done according to who the lowest bidder is. And those bids are generally overshot as well as the time needed to complete. Get the government out of our children's lives, out of their school system and quit letting them use the least qualified personnel to protect them.

We have thousands of veterans who are desperate for work. They have the training, skills as well as the mental attitude to deal with situations like this. Hire them, pay them WELL and give them the tools (firearms) they need to keep our children safe. All you have to do is look to Israel to see how our society could be. Everyone there is armed, including teachers, and the only attacks come from terrorists and not from little snot nosed kids who's mommy didn't show him how to be an adult.

When the #### will our leaders learn the gun free zones are free fire zones where people die.

 

Back several years ago I brought up that exact point about putting veterans in all the schools to protect our children and everyone thought it was a bad idea. Said you couldn't trust them not to go over the edge. I said Bull crap but no one seemed to like my idea back than. One thing is for sure. A vet knows the sound of gun fire and he won't run from it but he will run towards it. I still like the idea whether other folks do or not...............JMHO 

[Ronald_55]

17 minutes ago, jgradyc said:

At the risk of really making some people mad, it seems to me the solution would be to profile these shooters and restrict their access to firearms. 

This would mean raising the age to own a semiautomatic weapon or any handgun to 26 and older. People under 26 could own single shot rifles and shotguns. 

Let's not go adding arbitrary laws and rules that will not stop these anyway. 

If an 18 year old wants a gun, his parents will probably just buy it. Or he will steal his dad's, grandpa's, or another family members if he plans something bad.  If someone does not care about human life, then they sure as h3ll are not going to care about laws.

[jgradyc]

I think almost all of the mass school shootings were done by shooters age 25 or younger.