Ammo seller to Las Vegas killer arrested on federal charge

[DaveTN]

Selling ammo as a "hobby" could cost this guy 5 years of his life. He will be extremely lucky if they don't make an example out of him.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/02/charges-for-man-who-sold-las-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-ammunition.html

 

[Oh Shoot]

Tracers are now considered armor piercing?  Or both tracer and armor piercing, is there such a thing? 

Course, you can't manufacture and sell any ammo without a license, just thought that part was interesting.

- OS

Edited February 3, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[DaveTN]

22 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

Tracers are now considered armor piercing?  Or both tracer and armor piercing, is there such a thing? 

Course, you can't manufacture and sell any ammo without a license, just thought that part was interesting.

- OS

The stories aren’t clear, but I don’t think armor piercing or tracers had anything to do with it, that’s just hype for the story. I think they nabbed him for selling ammo, just as they would have if they decide someone is selling too many guns. The ammo was Lake City, probably surplus stuff. 

[Oh Shoot]

14 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

The stories aren’t clear, but I don’t think armor piercing or tracers had anything to do with it, that’s just hype for the story. I think they nabbed him for selling ammo, just as they would have if they decide someone is selling too many guns. The ammo was Lake City, probably surplus stuff. 

It's perfectly legal to sell normal ammo without a federal license.  Unless you manufactured it, so it must have been his own loads, not LC. There are also restrictions regarding armor piercing, would have to look that up.

- OS

Edited February 3, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[DaveTN]

11 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

It's perfectly legal to sell normal ammo without a federal license.  Unless you manufactured it, so it must have been his own loads, not LC. There are also restrictions regarding armor piercing, would have to look that up.

- OS

Could be that he was manufacturing or importing ammo; which does require a license… don’t know.

 

[Omega]

According to another site, he had an 06 FFL, but they found his fingerprints on armor piercing ammo in the hotel room.  So now they have to prove that he actually reloaded them and that they are indeed AP ammo, of which M855/SS109 is not.

[Garufa]

17 minutes ago, Omega said:

According to another site, he had an 06 FFL, but they found his fingerprints on armor piercing ammo in the hotel room.  So now they have to prove that he actually reloaded them and that they are indeed AP ammo, of which M855/SS109 is not.

CNN reports the AP rounds in question (all two of them) found with Haig's fingerprints are .308, i.e. 7.62x51.

[Omega]

21 minutes ago, Garufa said:

CNN reports the AP rounds in question (all two of them) found with Haig's fingerprints are .308, i.e. 7.62x51.

Yea, just read that as well, but it was a whole box with two rounds having fingerprints. The other thing I read is that the law is only for pistol ammo, not rifle.

Quote

 

US Code Title 18 Chapter 44 Section 921 CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

(17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Omega
Add text

[DaveTN]

2 hours ago, Omega said:

According to another site, he had an 06 FFL, but they found his fingerprints on armor piercing ammo in the hotel room.  So now they have to prove that he actually reloaded them and that they are indeed AP ammo, of which M855/SS109 is not.

 

1 hour ago, Garufa said:

CNN reports the AP rounds in question (all two of them) found with Haig's fingerprints are .308, i.e. 7.62x51.

"What (Paddock) bought was surplus US military tracer ammunition," Haig said. "600 rounds, 7.62mm NATO M62, manufactured by Lake City. 120 rounds, 5.56mm M196, manufactured by Lake City, in the original packaging."

http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/37418990/fbi-stephen-paddock-wasnt-the-only-one-who-bought-illegal-ammo-from-doug-haig

 

[DaveTN]

Those pictures of the hits on the fuel tanks confused me. A normal rifle round would not leave marks like that; even armor piercing. What left those burn marks?

[Murgatroy]

24 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Those pictures of the hits on the fuel tanks confused me. A normal rifle round would not leave marks like that; even armor piercing. What left those burn marks?

One of the articles I read mentioned the ammo guy stating that he sold tracer rounds to Paddock. He probably shot the tanks with the tracer rounds, thinking the phosphorous would ignite the fuel.

 

[Chucktshoes]

38 minutes ago, Murgatroy said:

One of the articles I read mentioned the ammo guy stating that he sold tracer rounds to Paddock. He probably shot the tanks with the tracer rounds, thinking the phosphorous would ignite the fuel.

 

According to some of the stuff I’ve seen floating about, investigators believe that this was the dude’s original plan. 

[nightrunner]

I don’t know if they make 7.62 NATO in APIT( armor piercing incindiary tracer) but I know they do in .50BMG. Could have been that, explains the burn marks.

[Hershmeister]

This dude will be bankrupted quickly by the civil suit which will quickly follow this announcement


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[scooter]

For reference, here are the court documents. Read and learn! This will get interesting.

Also, Douglas Haig has a good 2A lawyer, Marc Victor.

It is my understanding that none of his ammunition was used in the attack. So, there won't be any civil suit!

[No_0ne]

29 minutes ago, scooter said:

For reference, here are the court documents. Read and learn! This will get interesting.

Also, Douglas Haig has a good 2A lawyer, Marc Victor.

It is my understanding that none of his ammunition was used in the attack. So, there won't be any civil suit!

If the claims in the documents can be backed up, the guy is going to have a lot of problems with this.  While he may not be complicit in the shooting, the claims do seem to show that he was manufacturing ammunition without a license, whether any of that ammunition is proscribed in the civilian market is something I don't know much about ...

[DaveTN]

13 hours ago, scooter said:

It is my understanding that none of his ammunition was used in the attack. So, there won't be any civil suit!

Also, Douglas Haig has a good 2A lawyer, Marc Victor.

Unless there is solid proof none of it could have been used; there will be a civil suit. He has a job and a lawyer somewhere will want to take his money. If they prove he was manufacturing ammo illegally the punitive damages award would be high if it went to court. 

This isn’t a 2nd amendment case; he will need a good criminal defense attorney and a good civil lawyer to stay out of prison and have anything left.

Heck, it didn’t take but about a week for the lawsuits to start against Mandalay Bay, and they are victims also.

[scooter]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

Unless there is solid proof none of it could have been used; there will be a civil suit. He has a job and a lawyer somewhere will want to take his money. If they prove he was manufacturing ammo illegally the punitive damages award would be high if it went to court. 

This isn’t a 2nd amendment case; he will need a good criminal defense attorney and a good civil lawyer to stay out of prison and have anything left.

Heck, it didn’t take but about a week for the lawsuits to start against Mandalay Bay, and they are victims also.

Your wording is a bit off. If there is proof that not all of the ammunition he sold to the shooter is accounted for, then there is a civil case. According to his lawyer (and apparently the FBI), all of the ammunition sold to the shooter by Douglas Haig is accounted for, i.e., none of it has been shot. The current case against Douglas Haig is disconnected from any person that was shot or injured, hence there are no damages. He is being charged for failing to ask the government if he may manufacture ammunition and sell this ammunition. You may actually want to read the court documents, I posted.

So, manufacturing and selling ammunition has nothing to do with the 2A? By the way, Marc Victor is a good criminal defense attorney. Also, 2A cases often involve criminal charges.

One contentious point will be the the "armor piercing" ammunition language in the charges filed. Depending on how this is argued and the eventual case is decided upon, this could lead to legal precedence on the legality of "armor piercing" rifle rounds. Want to tell me again how this isn't a 2A case?

There may still be a civil case against him filed by the MDA loons, just as Lucky Gunner case. Want to tell me again how this isn't a 2A case?

[Hershmeister]

Agreed. And i am sure someone will sue him on the notion that if he hadnt made the ammo and sold it to the shooter, then perhaps the shooter would not have felt he could have carried out the attack- so i suspect a case might be made for partial negligence......regardless, just having to pay for a legal defense can bankrupt someone.....


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[peejman]

1 hour ago, Hershmeister said:

regardless, just having to pay for a legal defense can bankrupt someone.....

Which is why I have an umbrella liability insurance policy. 

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, scooter said:

Your wording is a bit off. If there is proof that not all of the ammunition he sold to the shooter is accounted for, then there is a civil case. According to his lawyer (and apparently the FBI), all of the ammunition sold to the shooter by Douglas Haig is accounted for, i.e., none of it has been shot. The current case against Douglas Haig is disconnected from any person that was shot or injured, hence there are no damages. He is being charged for failing to ask the government if he may manufacture ammunition and sell this ammunition. You may actually want to read the court documents, I posted.

So, manufacturing and selling ammunition has nothing to do with the 2A? By the way, Marc Victor is a good criminal defense attorney. Also, 2A cases often involve criminal charges.

One contentious point will be the the "armor piercing" ammunition language in the charges filed. Depending on how this is argued and the eventual case is decided upon, this could lead to legal precedence on the legality of "armor piercing" rifle rounds. Want to tell me again how this isn't a 2A case?

There may still be a civil case against him filed by the MDA loons, just as Lucky Gunner case. Want to tell me again how this isn't a 2A case?

If you think it’s a 2nd amendment case; so be it. It’s good he has a top 2nd amendment attorney.

Maybe his case will overturn the law and the courts will rule that everyone has the right to manufacture armor piercing and incendiary ammunition.

I did read the court documents. I don’t see anything saying none of his ammunition was fired, as only some, not all, samples were sent.  I’m sure his attorney will say none of his ammo was fired; I would. Maybe he can convince a jury.

Lucky Gunner was protected by the “Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act”.  I’m sure his attorneys will try that also.

I think it will boil down to him pleading out to whatever they want to stay out of prison.

The person reasonable for all of this is dead. Most of the money from his estate will go to pay the lawyers.  If anything is left it will go to the victims’ families. I suspect anyone that can remotely be tied to this in any way will either settle or pay for a legal defense.

[DaveTN]

7 minutes ago, peejman said:

Which is why I have an umbrella liability insurance policy. 

That will cover you when you are charged or convicted on a Federal Weapons Charge?

[peejman]

2 hours ago, DaveTN said:

That will cover you when you are charged or convicted on a Federal Weapons Charge?

I was thinking more of the impending civil suit, but best of my knowledge it's useable for legal fees. I don't know that it distinguishes between civil and criminal. I'd hope that I'm not so stupid as to violate federal weapons laws. 

[scooter]

2 hours ago, DaveTN said:

If you think it’s a 2nd amendment case; so be it. It’s good he has a top 2nd amendment attorney.

Maybe his case will overturn the law and the courts will rule that everyone has the right to manufacture armor piercing and incendiary ammunition.

I did read the court documents. I don’t see anything saying none of his ammunition was fired, as only some, not all, samples were sent.  I’m sure his attorney will say none of his ammo was fired; I would. Maybe he can convince a jury.

Lucky Gunner was protected by the “Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act”.  I’m sure his attorneys will try that also.

I think it will boil down to him pleading out to whatever they want to stay out of prison.

The person reasonable for all of this is dead. Most of the money from his estate will go to pay the lawyers.  If anything is left it will go to the victims’ families. I suspect anyone that can remotely be tied to this in any way will either settle or pay for a legal defense.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except for the issue of the ammunition being fired. His attorney doesn't have to convince the jury that the ammunition wasn't used. The opposing party has to convince the jury that the ammunition was used. If the ammunition wasn't used, then he didn't cause any damage whatsoever to be sued over. If it was used and if he is convicted of illegally manufacturing and/or selling the ammunition, then the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act won't help him.

[Danger Rane]

The burn marks on the tanks look like it would be from API not tracer. I have seen and used APIT in .50 but have only seen/used tracer or API in 7.62x51, not aware of a 7.62 in the APIT flavor. IF it had penetrated, and IF he hit the tanks in an area that was vapor and not fluid, it could have been pretty bad.