Non NFA 11.5" AR

[Oh Shoot]

45 minutes ago, bowtieguy said:

 

 

Well, not trigger.  Gotta be the barrel design, either smooth (my original guess) or with the"straight grooves" (guy with vid I mentioned in previous post), a way to get around the "rifled barrel" term in US code rifle definition.   Plus of course the 26" in OAL to remove from any chance of AOW status too I guess.

- OS

Edited January 23, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[bowtieguy]

Yup. I was wrong. Now I'm really curious. 

[Whisper]

Yeah, this is seriously interesting.  Whatever it is they're doing, I can't imagine other companies won't replicate it within weeks.

And, as for us home builders....

Cheers,

Whisper

[Garufa]

Straight-cut lands and grooves and grooves is the trick!

http://www.recoilweb.com/franklin-armorys-reformation-revealed-133042.html

[KahrMan]

So how long before straight land uppers are being sold so you can build your own at home?

[MP5_Rizzo]

20 minutes ago, KahrMan said:

So how long before straight land uppers are being sold so you can build your own at home?

Soon I'm sure.

But, if a muzzle device is added that causes the projectile to spin in any amount, does it become a rifle?

[Ronald_55]

Probably not long unless they were able to get a patent filed on a pre-existing technology. I bet they did not or someone would have leaked the patent application.

So any barrel manufactures that read this: Crank us out some barrels to get started. 

So is the straight lands the ONLY thing that makes this work or is the 26 inch over all still in play?

Edited January 23, 2018 by Ronald_55

[bowtieguy]

I'm having a tough time with this one. I kind of like rifling. I'm pretty fond of it. So, wheres the benefit of not just building a pistol? Just to have adjustable length of pull?

[MacGyver]

No way I'm putting my suppressor on a rifle that's throwing a non stabilized round...

While I get the fact that practical effects on accuracy might be mitigated at CQB distances, unfortunately bullets rarely stop there.  This seems like an easy way to break the "know your target and what's beyond it" rule in spirit.

 

[KahrMan]

49 minutes ago, MP5_Rizzo said:

Soon I'm sure.

But, if a muzzle device is added that causes the projectile to spin in any amount, does it become a rifle?

 

No.  Just like when you add a rifled choke to a shotgun it is still a shotgun.

 

3 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

No way I'm putting my suppressor on a rifle that's throwing a non stabilized round...

While I get the fact that practical effects on accuracy might be mitigated at CQB distances, unfortunately bullets rarely stop there.  This seems like an easy way to break the "know your target and what's beyond it" rule in spirit.

 

 

Most definitely.  It would not take much for the bullet to hit a baffle or part of the can if it is starting to tumble or something like that.

[TNMTBik3r]

Yesterday's report said the barrel was rifled....yeah, not really.

Interesting approach for sure. What I read so far, media day shooters were limited to testing at 50 yard steel. One or more people shot at a further distance and said the POI vs POA drop was massive, which doesn't bode well for success of this product. BUT, projectile shape will play a very important part.

[TNMTBik3r]

 

[MP5_Rizzo]

4 minutes ago, jonathon1289 said:

One or more people shot at a further distance and said the POI vs POA drop was massive

I see where this could become problematic at many local indoor and out door shooting ranges keeping stray bullets contained.

[TNMTBik3r]

Video says 4MOA at 50 yards with standard ammo...........sheesh. Tumbling starts at 50 yards.

 

They are designing a .308 bullet (300 BO) that will improve to 1MOA.

Edited January 23, 2018 by jonathon1289

[MacGyver]

Seems like an expensive way to try to save $200.

Truth of the matter is this is a SHOT show gimmick to get some free press and generate some traffic to their booth.  The range day articles even indicate as much when they talk about production models will be 300BLK but range day models being 5.56 "to save on ammo costs."

 

[KahrMan]

10 minutes ago, jonathon1289 said:

Video says 4MOA at 50 yards with standard ammo...........sheesh. Tumbling starts at 50 yards.

 

They are designing a .308 bullet (300 BO) that will improve to 1MOA.

4 moa at 50 yards means an 8" group, correct?

[MP5_Rizzo]

5 minutes ago, KahrMan said:

4 moa at 50 yards means an 8" group, correct?

Your math is correct!

[TNMTBik3r]

Just now, KahrMan said:

4 moa at 50 yards means an 8" group, correct?

Right.

Agree with MacGyver, gimmick. They have a ton of press, but on other forums it is negative attention with the detailed release. I like that a loophole was found, but the actual usefulness is lacking especially with the costs involved.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Get yourself one of the many "braces" being introduced and get the same result but with it being accurate. The Shockwave brace is about the best one out there. Shockwave, as well as a few others, are introducing a "brace" that is adjustable and fits a standard collapsible buffer tube. I would rather have an accurate "pistol" with a "brace" I can shoulder than a smoothbore that is nothing but a noise maker. They have taken a modern firearm back a few centuries and charge a premium to do it. I keep looking at the calendar and trying to figure out if today is the first day of April because there is no way they can be serious about selling that. But fools will separated from their cash quite easily if they think they can stick it to "the man".

To say an 11.5" barrel is only good to 50 yards anyway is idiotic. He is obviously either a lousy shot or catering to others who are lousy shots. I can promise you that most people can shoot better than 4" at 50 yards with a rifled 11.5" barrel. I guess that standard for what is accurate has really dropped.

To me this is nothing more than a gimmick to pry the cash from those afraid that our government plans on taking their firearms. But even so this isn't free from the standard process of buying a firearm. It is still regulated like any other firearm. If they ever outlaw certain firearms I would put my money that NFA items will be the last to be taken, machine guns are the case and point. Machine guns have been illegal to manufacture for over 30 years and are illegal to own or possess without being properly registered before the 1986 ban yet they remained during the AWB and will likely remain long after all other guns are banned. None of the national firearm bans have affected NFA items in the least so dare I say it but the $200 stamp is also protection against the government taking your NFA item.

I remember a manufacturer trying to get around this by producing a straight rifled barrel, I think it was the Taurus when they were getting approval to produce the Judge, and the ATF opined that "rifling" without a twist was still considered rifling. I bet Taurus is pissed over this recent opinion. They wanted the Judge to be a .410 pistol rather than a 45 LC pistol that happens to shoot .410. Imagine how different the Judge would be if it did have a smoothbore.

[MacGyver]

People have been rifling barrels in one form or another since the 15th century - for a reason.

I wanted to call this an autoloading musket - but then realized I was being unfair to muskets as there were plenty of rifled variants.

[n0rlf]

Wow, that was a rabbit hole. Have to admit I figured it for something else or a joke. Straight rifling was suggested but I did not see that as an option in reality.

This will not be on my list anytime soon! Even if you do not want the stamp cost a 16" carbine is really not that much longer and infinitely more useful than this one with no real range to it. 

Guess I will not being stock there after all.  LOL

Now, who owes who a beer?

[Oh Shoot]

3 hours ago, Ronald_55 said:

....

So is the straight lands the ONLY thing that makes this work or is the 26 inch over all still in play?

If <26" seems to fit AOW to me, which is ATFs long standing ruling as to what "capable of being concealed on the person" means.

- OS

[Whisper]

Yeah, don't need this now that I know what it is.  Build your own AR pistol and you'll be better off...in fact, that's what I did.  Twice already.

Cheers,

Whisper

[Mark A]

Wow... I don't need ANY help at all being inaccurate. I do that just fine all by myself. Built 300 blk pistols for myself and my wife. They work really well and are surprisingly quiet when suppressed. 

[tmauto769]

17 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Seems like an expensive way to try to save $200.

Truth of the matter is this is a SHOT show gimmick to get some free press and generate some traffic to their booth.  The range day articles even indicate as much when they talk about production models will be 300BLK but range day models being 5.56 "to save on ammo costs."

 

I agree, I don't see the problem with the $200 stamp, waiting 7"ish"months and having the real thing, or just slap a pistol brace on one and acting like it is the real thing. I think this is more of a "we did it" although it sucks, we did it thing.

Also how long will it be before the BATF backpedals on this one.