Non NFA 11.5" AR

[Handsome Rob]

18 hours ago, KahrMan said:

4 moa at 50 yards means an 8" group, correct?

In theory, yeah. In practice probably nearer 12-16"

Interest......lost. I can do better than that with my cheap, rattly 1911.

[GlockSpock]

In theory, yeah. In practice probably nearer 12-16"
Interest......lost. I can do better than that with my cheap, rattly 1911.

Wrong.

4 MOA would be very roughly 2” as 50 yards.


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[GlockSpock]

4 MOA at 200 yards would be roughly 8”.


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[Handsome Rob]

Wrong.

4 MOA would be very roughly 2” as 50 yards.


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*facepalm* Yep, sorry. Getting my moas & inches mixed up

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[KahrMan]

20 hours ago, KahrMan said:

4 moa at 50 yards means an 8" group, correct?

 

20 hours ago, MP5_Rizzo said:

Your math is correct!

 

20 hours ago, jonathon1289 said:

Right.

Agree with MacGyver, gimmick. They have a ton of press, but on other forums it is negative attention with the detailed release. I like that a loophole was found, but the actual usefulness is lacking especially with the costs involved.

 

1 hour ago, CZ9MM said:

 

Wrong.

4 MOA would be very roughly 2” as 50 yards.


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1 hour ago, CZ9MM said:

4 MOA at 200 yards would be roughly 8”.


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If that is the case, then 2" groups are not that bad at 50 yards.  Although like most people have said that a brace on a pistol would be just as accurate if not more so for a lot less money.

[MacGyver]

I’d love to get ahold of one of these, a high speed camera, and some XM855 tracers.  

I’d be willing to bet that once that bullet starts to keyhole, the trajectory would get really interesting pretty quickly.  

[MP5_Rizzo]

8 minutes ago, KahrMan said:

4 moa at 50 yards means an 8" group, correct?

 

8 minutes ago, KahrMan said:

your math is correct!

So after going back and watching the video I was wrong and a correction and further explanation is needed.   First off the Franklin Armory Rep. never uses the term MOA but claims the gun is capable of 4" groups at 50 yards which is probably a best case scenario in the real world.   So at 100 yards this should equate to a 4MOA or 8 inch group

 

[GlockSpock]

By no means did I mean any of that in a snarky manner. MOA is something that a lot/most people get confused about. Here is the most important thing to remember: MOA is a measurement of an angle, not a "grouping".

Degrees - Minutes - Seconds

360 Degrees in a circle

Each degree has 60 minutes

Each minute has 60 seconds

 

So for "MOA", you are really referring to how many minutes of a degree. It just so happens that 1 MOA is ~ 1" at 100 yards (it is actually 1.047"). As the distance shortens from 100 yards, the "grouping" (really, it's just the perpendicular measurement of the angle at a set distance) can only get smaller, just as it can only get bigger as you move out past 100 yards.

 

The place a lot of people get a bit off is usually "What MOA is it at x distance"? As in, trying to use MOA to describe the group size at different distances. The thing is, MOA doesn't change. If something is 1 MOA, it's 1 MOA at 100 yard just as it is at 1000 yards. The thing that changes is that perpendicular measurement, at 1000 yards that measurement (or in gun terms, grouping) is 10.47".

[GlockSpock]

1 minute ago, MP5_Rizzo said:

 

So after going back and watching the video I was wrong and a correction and further explanation is needed.   First off the Franklin Armory Rep. never uses the term MOA but claims the gun is capable of 4" groups at 50 yards which is probably a best case scenario in the real world.   So at 100 yards this should equate to a 4MOA or 8 inch group

 

4" groups at 50 yards is ~ 8 MOA. 8 MOA at 100 yards is ~8".

4 MOA at 100 yards is ~ 4".

[MacGyver]

1 minute ago, MP5_Rizzo said:

 

So after going back and watching the video I was wrong and a correction and further explanation is needed.   First off the Franklin Armory Rep. never uses the term MOA but claims the gun is capable of 4" groups at 50 yards which is probably a best case scenario in the real world.   So at 100 yards this should equate to a 4MOA or 8 inch group

 

Being a non-stabilized round, I’m not sure we can assume that.  

A 4” group at 50 yards is fine for CQB accuracy, but that bullet is unstable enough by 50 yards that the group could potentially be much larger at 100 yards. 

Somebody correct me if my thinking is off. 

[GlockSpock]

5 minutes ago, MP5_Rizzo said:

 

So after going back and watching the video I was wrong and a correction and further explanation is needed.   First off the Franklin Armory Rep. never uses the term MOA but claims the gun is capable of 4" groups at 50 yards which is probably a best case scenario in the real world.   So at 100 yards this should equate to a 4MOA or 8 inch group

 

In more straightforward terms, assuming that the 4" at 50 yards quote from Franklin Armory is correct, your 8" at 100 yards math is correct. Your 4 MOA math is not correct.

[monkeylizard]

The 4" group @ 50 yards touted by the factory rep would be 8" @ 100 yards, or 8 MOA in a normal situation. But because this isn't a normal situation and the round is not stabilized, extrapolating the 4" @ 50 yards to 8" at 100 yards to maintain that 8 MOA would be BEST case scenario and probably not likely.

Edited January 24, 2018 by monkeylizard

[MP5_Rizzo]

24 minutes ago, CZ9MM said:

In more straightforward terms, assuming that the 4" at 50 yards quote from Franklin Armory is correct, your 8" at 100 yards math is correct. Your 4 MOA math is not correct.

I'm with you now CZ9MM

After at least 15 years of being away from shooting highpower rifle my MOA calculating has become a little fuzzy so I just went back for a little refresher. MOA is something that confuses a lot of shooters and even when I understand it I get myself confused.

Here is something I found from Brownells to help others visualize MOA.

Rounding MOA
1 MOA @ 100 yards = 1 inch
1 MOA @ 200 Yards = 2 inch
1 MOA @ 300 yards = 3 inch
1 MOA @ 400 Yards = 4 inch
1 MOA @ 500 yards = 5 inch
1 MOA @ 600 Yards = 6 inch
1 MOA @ 700 yards = 7 inch
1 MOA @ 800 Yards = 8 inch
1 MOA @ 900 Yards = 9 inch
1 MOA @ 1000 Yards = 10 inch

Minute of Angle as it applies to group size and drop
MOA is used to measure group sizes. A 1 inch group @ 100 yards is referred to as a 1 MOA group. A 2 inch group @ 100 yards is a 2 MOA group.

Not sure it was worth getting all worked up over the actual MOA of the less than favorable group size of this not a shotgun / not a rifle gimmick firearm but it happens.

Edited January 24, 2018 by MP5_Rizzo

[monkeylizard]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

I’d love to get ahold of one of these, a high speed camera, and some XM855 tracers.  

I’d be willing to bet that once that bullet starts to keyhole, the trajectory would get really interesting pretty quickly.  

Maybe it's the new way to shoot around corners. 

[n0rlf]

All the math I need is the price compared to what I can build with much better accuracy even if it is a few inches longer!  I did enjoy seeing the discussion on MOA though. It is something m,ost people do not understand as it is not something most talk about too often in dad to son type conversations. Most of us just show the kids the target and explain the group size in inches or fractions of. To most folks MOA is something for engineering types!

And now it is clear as mud!  LOL

[Oh Shoot]

8 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Being a non-stabilized round, I’m not sure we can assume that.  

A 4” group at 50 yards is fine for CQB accuracy, but that bullet is unstable enough by 50 yards that the group could potentially be much larger at 100 yards. 

Somebody correct me if my thinking is off. 

Yep, seems to me no reason to think it would be a linear progression with accuracy per distance. It's a knuckle-ball that has a high degree of randomness built in from the git go, so the conventional calculations for centrifugally stabilized projectiles wouldn't necessarily apply at all.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

50 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

Yep, seems to me no reason to think it would be a linear progression with accuracy per distance. It's a knuckle-ball that has a high degree of randomness built in from the git go, so the conventional calculations for centrifugally stabilized projectiles wouldn't necessarily apply at all.

- OS

Meant to add, that a rifled shotgun slug from a smooth barrel also operates under this "knuckleball" technique too (and no, the "fins" on the slug don't impart any significant degree of spin). And though it's certainly not precise by any means,  can be relatively effective and predictable at the 100 yard distance. But here you've got the dynamics of the heavy fore end weight of the slug combined with the hollowed out rear affecting the physics too.

Which is all to say, dunno, but the whole idea just to get a "legal SBR" by sacrificing the accuracy of a rifled barrel seems rather absurd really, especially since an AR pistol with rifled bore outshines it by far, and can be used (again confirmed via ATF) by stabilizing from the shoulder with a brace same as with a stock. (As long as you didn't intend to do that from the gitgo, and all that, eh? )

- OS

Edited January 25, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[Whisper]

54 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

...the whole idea just to get a "legal SBR" by sacrificing the accuracy of a rifled barrel seems rather absurd really, especially since an AR pistol with rifled bore outshines it by far....

TRVTH.  This right here sums up the entirety of my thinking on this project.  No longer interested in one of these.

The Sig P365, however, still continues to be a bright shiny object....

[hipower]

55 minutes ago, Whisper said:

TRVTH.  This right here sums up the entirety of my thinking on this project.  No longer interested in one of these.

The Sig P365, however, still continues to be a bright shiny object....

LOL! Shiny stuff is a danger to us all!

[TNMTBik3r]

I wasn't too interested in purchasing something proprietary from FA anyways, was really just interested in what loophole they found and seeing if it could be used for individual builds.

I am not buying an inaccurate non-rifled barrel and/or proprietary ammo, so will be going with an adjustable arm brace for my next build.

[Tooreal]

I haven’t read every post past the 1st 2-1/2 pages on here, but it is interesting how they did jump through loopholes to get this thing approved so they can mass produce a rifle that will shoot a Bullet with a Flaired Tail through a Rifled Barrel with No Twist whatsoever? It may be my Monitor, but it sure looks like the Smooth Bore of the Barrel between the Cut Rifling appears to have a slight Rise like a Little Bit of Polygonal Lands? Whatever it has that may be added as Extra, I’m sure it will Need it just to Help the Bullet Fly Straight (without a Twist?) How Far will that Fly before Gravity takes over & it begins to Nose dive towards the Dirt? I don’t recall what the rear sight looked like, but did it resemble the British 303 Enfield? Not Saying anything bad at all about the 303, it’s Good for Hitting well over 600 yards, with the rear sight Elevated Properly! I’m just wondering if this New No Twist 300 Blackout will have a Bullet Drop similar to that of a Musket, but a little bit Better because of the Rifling?

I’m sure that you all have seen a picture of the Barrel by now? That is One of a Kind that I’ve never seen before, and I really Hope it does well but I just don’t see how it will react to variables like wind, heat and everything else that makes them want to Not Fly Straight or Far?

 

 

 

[Defender]

On 1/11/2018 at 5:01 PM, jonathon1289 said:

OS very well could be on to something.

Additionally, this is the company known for their binary triggers, which appears to be shown in the photo..... possibly related to the function of the trigger and projectile count?

 

The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

I kinda think 'single projectile' might be key words here...just sayin'

Edited February 1, 2018 by JAlexanderMSgt

[JohnC]

Ouch... 4 MOA.... Not too exciting. I'll keep an AR pistol with brace. They can keep the gimmick to skirt NFA.  

http://www.gunsandammo.com/shot-show/franklin-armory-presents-reformation-a-new-line-of-firearms/

[DaveTN]

I sometimes don’t know which is more comical, some of these so called “innovations” or some of the ATF interpretations. 

[tmauto769]

so I am guessing changing out the barrel to one with normal lands and grooves of the same length would put you in some hot water eh?