Non NFA 11.5" AR

[TNMTBik3r]

Figured long guns section may get more traffic than under the NFA section.

Saw this earlier, from Franklin Armory. 11.5" AR with stock that is not a NFA SBR.

This isn't posted under news on the Franklin Armory website and only a few other websites are reporting it. Will be interesting to see what comes of this.

 

 

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/franklin-armory-introduce-non-nfa-11-5-inch-ar-pattern-firearm/

Edited January 11, 2018 by jonathon1289

[nightrunner]

I want to see the info on this one.

[Oh Shoot]

Can't imagine what the basis of that is assuming ATF says it is indeed a stock on it.

Maybe they eked out some niche ruling with .410 and rifled barrel. Or rifle cartridge with smooth barrel. Or something.

- OS

Edited January 11, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[nightrunner]

8 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

Can't imagine what the basis of that is assuming ATF says it is indeed a stock on it.

Maybe they eked out some niche ruling with .410 and rifled barrel. Or rifle cartridge with smooth barrel. Or something.

- OS

With the ad saying “Not a rifle, not a shotgun” I think you may be on to something.

[TNMTBik3r]

OS very well could be on to something.

Additionally, this is the company known for their binary triggers, which appears to be shown in the photo..... possibly related to the function of the trigger and projectile count?

 

The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Edited January 11, 2018 by jonathon1289

[Garufa]

There is some kind of trickery afoot here.

[Oh Shoot]

3 minutes ago, Garufa said:

There is some kind of trickery afoot here.

Maybe you shoot a special rifled bullet (available through FA of course) through smooth bore to keep from throwing total knuckle balls. Or maybe it has rifled muzzle device similar to rifled choke tubes.

Anyway, a non-shot shell through a non-rifled barrel wouldn't be a "rifle" or "shotgun" I guess.

- OS

[Garufa]

34 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

Maybe you shoot a special rifled bullet (available through FA of course) through smooth bore to keep from throwing total knuckle balls. Or maybe it has rifled muzzle device similar to rifled choke tubes.

Maybe they’ve developed 5.56 mm smoothbore with proprietary rifled slugs.  

[Johnny Rotten]

 

[FrankD]

How would this work if the ATF were to change the ruling on this?  It is my understanding that these opinion letters can go back and forth pretty easily, if you are the owner of one of these are you immediately in violation if they change their mind?

[nightrunner]

I read the comments on a blog about this and the most plausible explanation I can find is that it has a binary trigger without semi auto function.  A rifle is defined as firing one projectile for each pull of the trigger. A machine gun is defined as firing more than one projectile for each function of the trigger. Therefore it falls between those two, legally. If it’s not a rifle it can’t be a SBR, and it’s over 26” OAL, so it’s not a AOW.

[Garufa]

27 minutes ago, nightrunner said:

I read the comments on a blog about this and the most plausible explanation I can find is that it has a binary trigger without semi auto function.  A rifle is defined as firing one projectile for each pull of the trigger. A machine gun is defined as firing more than one projectile for each function of the trigger. Therefore it falls between those two, legally. If it’s not a rifle it can’t be a SBR, and it’s over 26” OAL, so it’s not a AOW.

You reckon it might fire when the trigger is released?

[nightrunner]

5 minutes ago, Garufa said:

You reckon it might fire when the trigger is released?

That’s what the binary trigger is. They have a kit to drop in a standard AR. Has 3 modes, safe, semi and binary. Binary fires one round on pull and then another round on release. I’m personally not a fan of it but it is out there and legal.

[Ronald_55]

40 minutes ago, FrankD said:

How would this work if the ATF were to change the ruling on this?  It is my understanding that these opinion letters can go back and forth pretty easily, if you are the owner of one of these are you immediately in violation if they change their mind?

Exactly the reason I would avoid such things that slipped through the cracks. One incident and the ATF ruling changes. Then you are in violation or out the cost of the item. Especially if it is something as granular as firing on trigger release instead of pull.

That said, I do not do NFA items anyway. That way I avoid the possibility of violating something by accident. 

[Bulletpro111]

You guys are overthinking this waaaay too much. I knew about it before this company started marketing it. If it's over 26" in OAL.....it's not a SBR. It's not a rifle. It's not a pistol. It's a "weapon".

It's ALL about the overall length of the weapon. Not the trigger. Not the bore. Not the projectiles. Length. Length alone. This loophole has been around forever but only now is anyone marketing it and it would seem it has all the spookfish spooked real nice. lol

[Oh Shoot]

1 hour ago, Bulletpro111 said:

You guys are overthinking this waaaay too much. I knew about it before this company started marketing it. If it's over 26" in OAL.....it's not a SBR. It's not a rifle. It's not a pistol. It's a "weapon".

It's ALL about the overall length of the weapon. Not the trigger. Not the bore. Not the projectiles. Length. Length alone. This loophole has been around forever but only now is anyone marketing it and it would seem it has all the spookfish spooked real nice. lol

Nope, that only applies to a handgun and PGO shotshell weapon. And you're confused even on that one, I'm afraid.

A handgun (such as an AR pistol) if 26" or over in OAL may have a vertical forward grip on it. Only THEN is it a non-NFA "firearm". Remove the VFG and it's a handgun again, which has no federal barrel or over all length min/max. Add a buttstock and the same firearm becomes a rifle. And if under a 16" barrel, OR under 26" in OAL (or both, of course), is an SBR.

A short barreled 26" OAL shotshell weapon must not have had a stock in original config, otherwise it would have been a "weapon made from a shotgun". And of course you can't add one now, or it's an SBS.

 

- OS

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[Oh Shoot]

There is a possibility (I didn't think of it first) that they are able to skirt the definition of rifle in this case by using a non metallic cartridge.

Though neither "26 U.S. Code § 5845 - Definitions" , nor "18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions", mentions "metallic", and neither does the corresponding "27 CFR 479.11 - Meaning of terms", "27 CFR 478.11 - Meaning of terms" does.

So, 1 out of 4 mentions "metallic cartridge" .  This is not the first time the CFR, which is only supposed to "clarify" the actual USC as passed by Congress, has added a term not even suggested in the original. Such as the "originally made" to describe "handgun", and hence the basis for the "first a rifle, always a rifle" ruling.

- OS

Edited January 14, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[Garufa]

50 minutes ago, Bulletpro111 said:

You guys are overthinking this waaaay too much. I knew about it before this company started marketing it. If it's over 26" in OAL.....it's not a SBR. It's not a rifle. It's not a pistol. It's a "weapon".

It's ALL about the overall length of the weapon. Not the trigger. Not the bore. Not the projectiles. Length. Length alone. This loophole has been around forever but only now is anyone marketing it and it would seem it has all the spookfish spooked real nice. lol

Wrong.

[Murgatroy]

1 hour ago, Bulletpro111 said:

You guys are overthinking this waaaay too much. I knew about it before this company started marketing it. If it's over 26" in OAL.....it's not a SBR. It's not a rifle. It's not a pistol. It's a "weapon".

It's ALL about the overall length of the weapon. Not the trigger. Not the bore. Not the projectiles. Length. Length alone. This loophole has been around forever but only now is anyone marketing it and it would seem it has all the spookfish spooked real nice. lol

Nice first post, but as seen above, you are wrong.

 

[Ronald_55]

So has anyone found a copy of the ATF letter.? Looks like they had it posted on their site, but the link is dead. 

[Oh Shoot]

1 hour ago, Ronald_55 said:

So has anyone found a copy of the ATF letter.? Looks like they had it posted on their site, but the link is dead. 

I've read nothing except it wouldn't be revealed until SHOT.  Where you see a dead link?

- OS

Edited January 14, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[Ronald_55]

I saw one to a pdf, but I can't find it in my history now. It was dead, so I couldn't read the letter anyway. 

[Dolomite_supafly]

Here is one of the definitions of a "firearm" and my take on how they did it.

§ 5845(a)(4) — The term “Firearm” means a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; 

§ 5845(a)(4) — The term “Firearm” means a weapon made from a rifle, which this started out as because of the stock.

if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches, because it is not required it doesn't apply.

or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; This has a barrel of less than 16" .

 

 

So if it starts life as a rifle and is then modified so is has a barrel less than 16" it becomes a firearm. No mention of the need to remove the stock or making it so it can't be shoulder fired. 

It just has to have a barrel of less than 16" OR (not and) an OAL of less than 26" to meet the definition of a "firearm". It is a modified "rifle" and has a barrel less than 16" .

Now if it started life as a pistol and a stock was added it would not be a "firearm". If it was originally anything other than a "rifle" and it was modified it would not meet the definition above for a "firearm". Because it is modified from a "rifle" it meets the above definition of a "firearm".

I believe they played the word game and won. Good for us is we can take any "rifle" and make this but if you built a "pistol" first, like we all do, then you cannot just add a stock.

[Oh Shoot]

1 hour ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

Here is one of the definitions of a "firearm" and my take on how they did it.

§ 5845(a)(4) — The term “Firearm” means a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;.....

================================

You are quoting US Code from the original National Firearm Act.  It is simply defining example of an NFA firearm (SBR in this case). 

Quote

So if it starts life as a rifle and is then modified so is has a barrel less than 16" it becomes a firearm. No mention of the need to remove the stock or making it so it can't be shoulder fired. 

Yes, it becomes a firearm. An NFA firearm.

You are conflating this with the non-NFA "firearm/other firearm" type as exemplified by rulings in the last few years such as with VFGs on 26" pistols, PGO shotties, and even the short barreled Shockwave shottie design.

But that entire paragraph A1-A8 from which you quoted simply defines firearms which fall under NFA purview. Full paragraph from "26 U.S. Code § 5845 - Definitions":

"(a) Firearm [meaning, NFA firearm]

The term “firearm” means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device."

- OS

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

Just throwing out ideas, not saying it is fact. We shall see, perhaps it is the crack in the NFA dam that will lead to its collapse.