Goodbye Russian ammunition

[TNBuckeye]

Buy Serbian?

Aim Surplus has PPU in most calibers at a fair pricing.

My experience with .30cal, .303, 7.62x25, .380, and 9mm has been good.

 

^^^THIS! I have had pretty good experiences with PPUs FMJ, SP, and Match Grade stuff in 54r across several firearms. Plus it is brass cased!

 

But I will miss Tula in x39...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gregintenn]

12 hours ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

Wait until cheap ammunition isn't available. That void will cause our domestic "surplus" to bounce back up like it has in the past during shortages, when it can be found. It will also affect pretty much every other centerfire caliber as well. The neck beards will be buying it all up and selling it out of the backs of their 80's vans like they did with .22 for so long and we haven't fully recovered from that shortage yet. And with all the new shooters coming onboard in the last 3-5 years this will have a MAJOR impact on ammunition availability across the board.

This will affect the firearms industry across the board because people will not want to shoot their guns and guns that people know they can't afford to shoot will not be upgraded or even built or bought. Firearm accessories will loose their luster when the gun they are going on cannot be shot. The cost of attending training classes just went up substantially and for a lot of people it will be out of reach, significantly affecting that aspect of the firearms industry. I guess if you are in the business of selling reloading supplies you are about to hit the boom cycle.

Congress has done nothing to help gun owners since we had the majority and nothing positive has happened since we have had a super majority. I ask again how are they helping us gun owners? How have they hurt us gun owners? Weigh the two, I have and I see nothing positive coming out of Washington. National reciprocity? Never going to happen. HPA or HUSH, never going to happen. At least they could do no harm but they can't even do that because we are also about to loose anything that the ATF determines can increase the rate of fire, not just bump stocks. Congress could end that instantly but they are going to stand idly by as we loose another battle because they do not want to take sides or rock the boat. They would rather stand in the corner and hope no one notices they aren't doing anything rather than stand for something. Look at all the import bans enacted over the years that directly affect gun owners, they could easily lift each and every one but that is NEVER going to happen.

I am not going to lay down and give up but I am not going to support those who say they are my friend when their actions prove otherwise. I just hope there are a lot of independents on the ballot next year.

For all of those who seem to have a problem buying stuff from our "enemy", look around your house. I bet the keyboard you are typing on and the screen you are viewing it on says "Made in China". The cell phone in your pocket, Made in China. The silverware you just ate your meal with, yep, Made in China. And in case you haven't noticed China is just as communist and supplying our enemies with a lot more than these ammunition and gun companies. Russia is not our biggest threat, China is and yet we seem to buy a lot of cheap goods from them.

I'm all in for stopping trade with China. I do realize, however, that I am in the minority on this position.

I can't see voting for democrats as a solution for anything.

If we do lose cheap Russian ammo, the void will be filled in some manner, as long as the demand is there, just like when we lost Chinese firearms and ammo. Norinco made good stuff cheap, but yet we all still survive.

[Erik88]

3 hours ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

 How about they do these things now to stay in office rather than wait and use it as an excuse to reelect them.

Why would they do that? They know that their base will continue to support them simply because of the "R" next to their name. There is a reason we have the same people in Congress for multiple decades. 

[Billrube]

If the Russian ammo sources are stopped, Serbia will increase it's ammo production. There will be a shortfall in the market, no doubt but when the demand gets high enough, Serbia will kick in in a big way. Right now they can't compete with Russia on price and volume. If the door shuts on Russia, it leaves a huge market void for someone to fill. 

 

[Garufa]

27 minutes ago, Billrube said:

If the Russian ammo sources are stopped, Serbia will increase it's ammo production. There will be a shortfall in the market, no doubt but when the demand gets high enough, Serbia will kick in in a big way. Right now they can't compete with Russia on price and volume. If the door shuts on Russia, it leaves a huge market void for someone to fill. 

 

Serbia does not produce steel-cased ammo.

Steel-cased ammo is cheaper to produce.

The Russians have known this for decades, as did the ze Germans in WWII.

If there is in fact a complete shutdown in the Russian pipeline then everyone just needs to be prepared to pay more.  Your Representatives and Senators will have no understanding whatsoever.

[R1100R]

The other former eastern block countries are already stepping up their game in this area such as the Ukraine and Romania.

[Billrube]

1 hour ago, Garufa said:

Serbia does not produce steel-cased ammo.

Steel-cased ammo is cheaper to produce.

The Russians have known this for decades, as did the ze Germans in WWII.

If there is in fact a complete shutdown in the Russian pipeline then everyone just needs to be prepared to pay more.  Your Representatives and Senators will have no understanding whatsoever.

Serbia has produced some of the best brass case 7.62x39 in the world. They've got the machinery to mass produce but they don't --because you are right-- steel case is cheaper to produce. You take cheap Russian steel case off the market though and all of a sudden the obstacles are gone.  

[felinesNfreedom]

1 hour ago, Garufa said:

Serbia does not produce steel-cased ammo.

Steel-cased ammo is cheaper to produce.

The Russians have known this for decades, as did the ze Germans in WWII.

If there is in fact a complete shutdown in the Russian pipeline then everyone just needs to be prepared to pay more.  Your Representatives and Senators will have no understanding whatsoever.

I checked today to see if the Monarch brand will be effected by this. All Steel case pistol and rifle ammo is from Russia and all the Brass is from Serbia. I am stocking 5.45 while I can. I have about 4000 rounds of 7.62 but only 500 or so of 5.45 due to just getting a 74 not to long ago. 

[Oh Shoot]

Ya know what's odd is that there's just zero babble about this on gun sites currently that I can find right off the bat. Generally the slightest hint of something possible in the works gets everybody all atwitter on all of them?

Looking at original link in first post, I don't see any of the ammo plants specifically mentioned, although admittedly for all I know any/all could be owned by any of the larger entities that are. Am I missing something big in this regard?

Is there more to it than this? (this is not a US gummit doc).   Or can it be that commercially imported Russian ammo into the US is not in the purview of the sanctions in the legislation?

- OS

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Oh Shoot

[chances R]

I  don't see this as an attack on firearms/ammunition.  It is IMO a sanction on Russia that simply tries to impact their political actions.  If it happens to involve an economic facet that includes ammunition, so be it.  I don't think as a community of gun owners we can be or should be immune to worldwide political actions.  That doesn't mean I like it, but I'm not paranoid to think they every action targets me as a gun owner is planned to do so.

[Oh Shoot]

15 hours ago, Oh Shoot said:

Ya know what's odd is that there's just zero babble about this on gun sites currently that I can find right off the bat. Generally the slightest hint of something possible in the works gets everybody all atwitter on all of them?

Looking at original link in first post, I don't see any of the ammo plants specifically mentioned, although admittedly for all I know any/all could be owned by any of the larger entities that are. Am I missing something big in this regard?

Is there more to it than this? (this is not a US gummit doc).   Or can it be that commercially imported Russian ammo into the US is not in the purview of the sanctions in the legislation?

- OS

 

Found where NPO High Precision Systems JSC  is the parent holding company for the Tula plant, so presumably that could be targeted, if indeed commercial ammo distribution is under the cross hairs.  Haven't found any connection between all the other ammo concerns there and the companies listed, though there may well be some as I mused above.

- OS

[Dolomite_supafly]

It isn't an attack on gun owners but it will definitely impact gun owners and it is well within our legislators power to minimize the impact to us. 

The legislation prevents any business dealings with those companies on the list, regardless of the product. Rostec owns Tula Ammunition and Wolf ammunition is produced by Tula. Both would be affected by this. Primers would also be affected as it is a ban on business dealings, not specific products so it could include a myriad of other products produced by those companies. It could also affect US companies that export products to Russia if those exports go to any of these companies or the banks that also do business with the sanctioned companies.

Imagine this in terms of gasoline. Some people use the cheapest gas possible while others only use the highest grade possible but the majority of gasoline users use cheap gasoline. And when the cheap gasoline runs out gas prices will increase because of a shortage, like we have seen before. I remember buying premium at $5.50 a gallon when cheap regular unleaded ran out. Getting rid of cheap gas would increase gas prices, simple economics.

Ammunition prices have continued to climb since at least 2010 and often times we hear that the reason for this is because material costs have risen but if you actually look at the materials used to make ammunition it has remained relatively stable, even decreasing if you account for inflation. Lead has remained steady while copper has fallen in value during the same time that ammunition has continued to climb. I believe the reason is because ammunition manufacturers, because of shortages, have raised prices because they know consumers will buy it. And while I do not have a problem with that do not tell me materials are the reason when they are not. When ammunition is in short supply the prices will climb setting a new "norm" for pricing, just like 22 ammunition has. The increase in the cost of 22 ammunition is not because it costs more but because shortages have caused them to raise prices based on shortages. And this shortage caused by a lack of cheap ammunition will undoubtedly cause a shift in pricing across the board costing us all and it could easily be prevented by exempting ammunition being imported from the sanctions about to be imposed.

Hopefully it doesn't happen and all this was an exercise in futility but either way I stand by my statement that those representatives telling us they are our friends are acting like they are not. We could get anything we wanted passed right now but they refuse. We are about to loose more gun freedoms than we have in a very, very long time and our representatives are the ones allowing it to happen. They could easily reel in the ATF and their lawless ways of rewriting law but they won't. Instead they are making criminals out of law abiding citizens overnight and without a change in the law. And because of that we are going to see a lot more restrictions and leading that charge we have Paul Ryan advocating for a lot of what the ATF is currently doing.

I never said I wanted to vote democrat but I refuse to vote republican any more because they have time and time again they say one thing then do another. Maybe I will just stay home next year instead of pulling the voting handle while holding my nose. I suspect next year a lot of "our" representatives will be wondering what happened because if national reciprocity, at a minimum, doesn't get passed a lot of gun owners are going to stay home.

[n0rlf]

19 minutes ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

It isn't an attack on gun owners but it will definitely impact gun owners and it is well within our legislators power to minimize the impact to us. 

The legislation prevents any business dealings with those companies on the list, regardless of the product. Rostec owns Tula Ammunition and Wolf ammunition is produced by Tula. Both would be affected by this. Primers would also be affected as it is a ban on business dealings, not specific products so it could include a myriad of other products produced by those companies. It could also affect US companies that export products to Russia if those exports go to any of these companies or the banks that also do business with the sanctioned companies.

Imagine this in terms of gasoline. Some people use the cheapest gas possible while others only use the highest grade possible but the majority of gasoline users use cheap gasoline. And when the cheap gasoline runs out gas prices will increase because of a shortage, like we have seen before. I remember buying premium at $5.50 a gallon when cheap regular unleaded ran out. Getting rid of cheap gas would increase gas prices, simple economics.

Ammunition prices have continued to climb since at least 2010 and often times we hear that the reason for this is because material costs have risen but if you actually look at the materials used to make ammunition it has remained relatively stable, even decreasing if you account for inflation. Lead has remained steady while copper has fallen in value during the same time that ammunition has continued to climb. I believe the reason is because ammunition manufacturers, because of shortages, have raised prices because they know consumers will buy it. And while I do not have a problem with that do not tell me materials are the reason when they are not. When ammunition is in short supply the prices will climb setting a new "norm" for pricing, just like 22 ammunition has. The increase in the cost of 22 ammunition is not because it costs more but because shortages have caused them to raise prices based on shortages. And this shortage caused by a lack of cheap ammunition will undoubtedly cause a shift in pricing across the board costing us all and it could easily be prevented by exempting ammunition being imported from the sanctions about to be imposed.

Hopefully it doesn't happen and all this was an exercise in futility but either way I stand by my statement that those representatives telling us they are our friends are acting like they are not. We could get anything we wanted passed right now but they refuse. We are about to loose more gun freedoms than we have in a very, very long time and our representatives are the ones allowing it to happen. They could easily reel in the ATF and their lawless ways of rewriting law but they won't. Instead they are making criminals out of law abiding citizens overnight and without a change in the law. And because of that we are going to see a lot more restrictions and leading that charge we have Paul Ryan advocating for a lot of what the ATF is currently doing.

I never said I wanted to vote democrat but I refuse to vote republican any more because they have time and time again they say one thing then do another. Maybe I will just stay home next year instead of pulling the voting handle while holding my nose. I suspect next year a lot of "our" representatives will be wondering what happened because if national reciprocity, at a minimum, doesn't get passed a lot of gun owners are going to stay home.

Sorry but this is exactly the problem. Cuts have to be made and sanctions are going in place. No one tells about either until it effects them. Them it is all about the screaming over the dirty politicians are hosing us. 

I understand the frustration but choosing your vote over a single issue is one of the reasons we have the mess we do. Forget R or D and select a non incumbent. That would send a big message to DC. 

Problem is we have a country full of sheep that will not grow the teeth or testicles to fire the wolves. So they are let forward as lambs to slaughter. 

Here is an idea, let's break that paradigm and get a new one. Or you can sit at home and sulk and choose not to participate. Which do you think will get you your wish the fastest?

Poop in one hand...... We all know the old saying. 

Here is a new old saying "Grow teeth and learn to bite, for that is all they will respect."

We all know there are Rino and Dino folks in DC. We all know they screw is regularly. Now for the hard part, you going to talk about it all day or do something about it. Because if all you want to do is while and complain there is a coffee shop that would welcome you. 

Now that is not pointed to anyone in particular the least of which is not the OP. Just a general observation of what society is. 

Lots of takers and very few walkers. We need the walkers, you can guess what I think of the talkers. A drain on society at best, treasonous scum at worse. 

 

 

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have said for a very long time I would vote for a newcomer over a current politician, did it last election. Dare I say it but I did not vote for Trump, glad he is doing what he said he would do but I had serious doubts about that as well as all the other politicians on the ballot. I couldn't bring myself, standing at the poll, to pull the D handle but that didn't mean I voted R either, because I didn't. And if you haven't figured it out yet, I voted for Larry the weed guy for President. At least if he became president I wouldn't be giving two ####s about the world right now as I ate my way to 300 pounds.

I do what I can, I do make calls and do send emails. I am passionate about rights and not just mine but everyone else's because when someone else looses their rights mine go right along with theirs. That is why I get so damned pissed off, I put in the effort and others have a C'est la vie attitude when it comes to preserving their own rights. At some point everything going on will affect every single one of us so I send the emails and make the phone calls, even if most won't, because it seems like no one else gives two ####s until it hits them square in the nuts. The time to fight isn't when you are against the ropes but we you have freedom of movement.

We are at war and loosing almost every battle with the liberal mindset that is destroying our country. Even here in Tennessee we are a lot closer to becoming a blue state than anyone probably realizes. Look at every major population center and you will see they are run by liberals. It is just a matter of time before we turn blue unless we can get off our collective asses and come together as a unified front against those who wish to do us in. Our representatives, the ones we elected, refuse to take a stand on our behalf so we need a change, even if that means an election cycle of other than republicans, to send a message that we are fed up. That is why Trump got elected, now if we can do with our state representatives we might actually have a fighting chance. As long as the Grand Old Party remains in office we will continue to loose our God given rights, maybe not as fast as with a bunch of liberals but then end result will be the same.

[n0rlf]

DS I do not disagree at all! And you have identified the big problem, liberal infestation. Now the word liberal is not necessarily the same as Democrat. It is fast becoming apparent though that the city government's are more and more blue and where they are there is not a good stable safe one amongst them. Problem is they want things that way in the city and we want something else in the suburbs and country.  How do we reconcile those differences?  

Tough question. I have a feeling myself that it is too late. So I have mad a personal choice to move back to the sticks and protect and mine. I will continue to fight the good fight for what I think and believe though. Plan for the worse and hope and act for the best. 

Wish I had the answers guys but alas I am just an IT geek. I can build you a system but you have to give me requirements. 

[Sunfish]

It is a deteriorating situation. As far as the Russian Steelcase goes they will either produce it somewhere else or don't and say they did. I'm surprised that China has not found a way to get in the Game. They have been out of it for quite a while. The metals market is bottomed out. I think the sanctions are going to be short lived because the wind blows several directions but mostly round and round like the wheels on the bus     

[n0rlf]

3 minutes ago, Sunfish said:

It is a deteriorating situation. As far as the Russian Steelcase goes they will either produce it somewhere else or don't and say they did. I'm surprised that China has not found a way to get in the Game. They have been out of it for quite a while. The metals market is bottomed out. I think the sanctions are going to be short lived because the wind blows several directions but mostly round and round like the wheels on the bus     

Yeah, the short bus!  Very short. 

[Sunfish]

23 minutes ago, n0rlf said:

Yeah, the short bus!  Very short. 

I hate it when they lick the windows

[Dolomite_supafly]

 

46 minutes ago, Sunfish said:

It is a deteriorating situation. As far as the Russian Steelcase goes they will either produce it somewhere else or don't and say they did. I'm surprised that China has not found a way to get in the Game. They have been out of it for quite a while. The metals market is bottomed out. I think the sanctions are going to be short lived because the wind blows several directions but mostly round and round like the wheels on the bus     

Name one ban import ban related to firearms or ammunition that has been lifted? There has been an import ban on Chinese ammunition and firearms, other than "sporting", since the 90's and it will remain that way until well after I am dead and gone. And since then we have had several presidents that could have reversed that but Bush decided to actually keep it in place and I bet the Don will too. If contend that if we can buy other Chinese goods then we should be able to buy all Chinese goods but it is our government who is deciding that stuff related to guns is verboten. They claim to do it in order to hurt them financially but if that were the case then we could ban the import/export of other things, instead of firearms and ammunition, and have a bigger impact. Our government is anti gun and they will continue to chip away, little by little, at our gun rights until we are left with nothing more than our fists to defend ourselves.

If the metals market has bottomed out why is ammunition still climbing? Perhaps it is because manufacturers know that is what the market will bear. When cheap ammunition goes that will only increase the price those manufacturers can charge. If our government lifted ammunition bans from every country in the world the ammunition market would tank and we would see prices drop to ridiculously low prices. The exact same thing has happened to the AR market, as startups flooded the market with cheap ARs the prices dropped. The same exact situation could happen with ammunition if those who purport to be our allies would lift the bans in place but I have a better chance of hitting the lottery.

[Grunt67]

The loss of foreign made ammo isn't an issue with me, personally. I don't use it anyway. Rem, Fed, Win, is about it for me. Mostly, I make my own.

 

[n0rlf]

4 minutes ago, Grunt67 said:

The loss of foreign made ammo isn't an issue with me, personally. I don't use it anyway. Rem, Fed, Win, is about it for me. Mostly, I make my own.

 

I also do not use any of it but I will still fight for OUR rights. If we do not fight together they will take all our rights slowly over time. 

[Grunt67]

7 hours ago, n0rlf said:

I also do not use any of it but I will still fight for OUR rights. If we do not fight together they will take all our rights slowly over time. 

I'll fight for our rights too ( U.S.Army), but I prefer to pick my battles for the bigger picture. Plus, folks cry about "buy American", but they don't want to give up the cheaper mdse.  Very difficult to find mdse that isn't labeled, "Made In China, Mexico, etc."  Each his/her own.

[n0rlf]

22 minutes ago, Grunt67 said:

I'll fight for our rights too ( U.S.Army), but I prefer to pick my battles for the bigger picture. Plus, folks cry about "buy American", but they don't want to give up the cheaper mdse.  Very difficult to find mdse that isn't labeled, "Made In China, Mexico, etc."  Each his/her own.

I am a retired marine/sailor, Wife is a retired Sailor. We have and will continue the battles. We check everything we procure for the made in USA label. Picking one's battles is a great thing but expressing your desires to a congress critter is pretty painless regardless of the battle. 

As I have mentioned in previous posts it is hypocritical to want to carve out a deal for your special interest while wanting to cut someone else's. Seems our politicians need to learn that again.

 

[Sunfish]

There is a lot of truth in what DS is saying. The part where the G keeps Chinese Arms and ammunition out trying to hurt them economically is a joke that is not funny. You can shove something down the throat of an unarmed subject much easier than a free man that is armed. Anything that the Government has to offer with the exception of lip service was taken from us to begin with. 

[Omega]

IMHO I think the import restrictions are more symbolic than anything.  The only reason it effects foreign weapons more often than not is because those restrictions are against the actual government, and most of those companies do business with the government if not downright owned by the government.  And you know what, I'm ok with that, while I may like certain foreign weapons, there is nothing out there that I need which would not be replaced with a weapon that is allowed to be imported, or made here in the US.  As a matter of fact, if the cheap imports start being a part of the past, maybe some US companies will start filling the niche.  The US populace will still want what they want, and if a US company can fill that want then so much the better.  Of course we need to start putting pressure on our US companies to up their game in the QC and CS department, so many of them are putting out a substandard product that it's hurting their sales big time and having us look elsewhere.