Husband Denied Carry Permit

[JCanan]

Hey, I'm new here, so please be kind.

I have my CCW and my husband used to have one as well. He is a medically-retired Army veteran and his permit just expired on December 9th. He applied for a renewal but was denied bec he was sent to a medical institution 4 years ago for being suicidal and was honest about it on his application. What concerns me is, the reason he was suicial is bec the Army doc put him on Lyrica for chronic pain in his shoulders (he's had 3 surgeries) and one of the side effects is suicidal ideations. He told his physiologist that and they sent him straight to the hospital. He was immediately put on a different med for the pain and hasn't had that issue since. On the online application it gives you a place to explain certain answers, which he did, but they still denied him. I feel like they deciding party didn't even bother reading his explanation, but I can't prove it. My questions are 1) Does he ever have a chance of getting his permit back or is he screwed bec of a stupid medication?, 2) Does the medical hospitalization on his record ever "expire", so to speak? For example, after 5 years with no new issues, is it no longer considered a factor?, and 3) Since his permit renewal was denied, will that affect his background check if he tries to buy a new gun? He is a God-fearing man that worked hard to serve his country for 13 years (he only got out bec of injuries incurred while deployed), and has an outstanding military record as an enlisted soldier and then Army Captain. He is devistated. Is there anything we can do?

[peejman]

Sorry for the difficulties.  Someone who remembers her name will chime in with contact info for a very helpful lady at TDOS who can address this sort of thing. I just can't recall her name at the moment...  

[Eddie Southgate]

I'd get documentation on the medication and side effects from his doctor as well as his military record and try to apply in person rather than online . Get the doctor to write a paper stating that he has no known mental issues and that that the meds caused the problem and that he is no longer taking them and has had no further problems stating how long he has been off them . Might not make any difference but that is what I would try first . Damn shame to be punished for telling the truth .

Eddie

[Ski]

5 hours ago, peejman said:

Sorry for the difficulties.  Someone who remembers her name will chime in with contact info for a very helpful lady at TDOS who can address this sort of thing. I just can't recall her name at the moment...  

Found this in another thread...thanks  to DaveTN

Program Director, Lisa Knight,P.O. Box 23710 Nashville, TN 37202 (615) 251-8590

[Oh Shoot]

5 hours ago, Ski said:

Found this in another thread...thanks  to DaveTN

Program Director, Lisa Knight,P.O. Box 23710 Nashville, TN 37202 (615) 251-8590

Or you could have just looked at TN gummit handgun permit page:

https://www.tn.gov/safety/handgunmain.html

- OS

[DaveTN]

Thanks to your husband for his service. 

I have no idea whether he will be able to get a permit or not, but Lisa Knight should be able to give you some direction. My guess would be he would have to ask for a hearing. If that happens, as Eddie said, you will need medical documentation.

Good luck.

[Guest BHG123]

Also, I thought I heard that being "voluntarily admitted" is different than being "forceably admitted" to a mental institution with regard to handgun permits.  I thought a person could only be denied if they were forceably admitted.  If that is truly the case, then maybe what is needed is a clarification of the terms of admittance.  It would be a good question to ask.  Hopefully, Lisa can help you. 

[Oh Shoot]

49 minutes ago, BHG123 said:

Also, I thought I heard that being "voluntarily admitted" is different than being "forceably admitted" to a mental institution with regard to handgun permits.  I thought a person could only be denied if they were forceably admitted.  If that is truly the case, then maybe what is needed is a clarification of the terms of admittance.  It would be a good question to ask.  Hopefully, Lisa can help you. 

You may be conflating federal 4473 wording with the TN HCP one, which includes:

".... has not been judicially committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution pursuant to title 33 ...."

No idea exactly how that is exactly interpreted currently, and not gonna try to pore through the definitions in title 33 for relevancy to the topic, but OP probably should.

- OS (not a lawyer)

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Oh Shoot

[Guest BHG123]

14 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

You may be conflating federal 4473 wording with the TN HCP one, which includes:

".... has not been committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution...."

No idea exactly how that is exactly interpreted currently, except that generally in law an "or" means that part of a sentence stands alone.

- OS (not a lawyer)

 

Good information. It sounds like TN law is tougher than Federal.  As you bolded above, the TN law states MENTAL institution.  JCanon, has stated MEDICAL institution in the original post, not mental. 

JCanon, that wording might also be good to bring up to Lisa, I bet she asks for it.

We are pulling for your husband, and we thank him for his service.

-I am NOT a lawyer either.

[DaveTN]

I could be wrong, but I don’t think this will be a legal battle over interpretation of the law or what the facility was called. I think it will be a common sense determination of the “suicidal” issue. I believe the board will have wide leeway on determining if that is still a factor.

This is exactly why many people won’t seek the mental health help they need. It puts a label on you that may impact you for the rest of your life. A PTSD diagnosis could end your right to have a gun to protect yourself and your family. I don’t know what the answer is.

[JayC]

On 12/17/2017 at 12:33 PM, JCanan said:

Hey, I'm new here, so please be kind.

I have my CCW and my husband used to have one as well. He is a medically-retired Army veteran and his permit just expired on December 9th. He applied for a renewal but was denied bec he was sent to a medical institution 4 years ago for being suicidal and was honest about it on his application. What concerns me is, the reason he was suicial is bec the Army doc put him on Lyrica for chronic pain in his shoulders (he's had 3 surgeries) and one of the side effects is suicidal ideations. He told his physiologist that and they sent him straight to the hospital. He was immediately put on a different med for the pain and hasn't had that issue since. On the online application it gives you a place to explain certain answers, which he did, but they still denied him. I feel like they deciding party didn't even bother reading his explanation, but I can't prove it. My questions are 1) Does he ever have a chance of getting his permit back or is he screwed bec of a stupid medication?, 2) Does the medical hospitalization on his record ever "expire", so to speak? For example, after 5 years with no new issues, is it no longer considered a factor?, and 3) Since his permit renewal was denied, will that affect his background check if he tries to buy a new gun? He is a God-fearing man that worked hard to serve his country for 13 years (he only got out bec of injuries incurred while deployed), and has an outstanding military record as an enlisted soldier and then Army Captain. He is devistated. Is there anything we can do?

So, here is the tough question...  Was your husband stay in the hospital an 'involuntary commitment'?

IANAL,

If your husband went to the hospital voluntarily, then he should have answered NO to Question #13A - see https://www.tn.gov/content/tn/safety/handgunmain/handgunfaqs.html#Q10

If your husband went to the hospital under an involuntary commitment, then he would be prevented for life from getting an HCP, and most likely be a 'prohibited person' under federal law from possessing any firearms for the rest of his life.  There seems to be some exception depending on the verbiage of the commitment, having to do with 'substantial likelihood of serious harm' and a 7 year sunset.

If it was a 'voluntary' visit, then I'd just fill the form out again, answer #13A as NO (see the link above), and if denied find a lawyer to appeal the denial.  

If it wasn't voluntary, I'd probably find a good lawyer and get a professional option on how this limits your husband's firearm rights.  

Let us know how it turns out please.

Edited December 18, 2017 by JayC

[Guest PAULSHOOT]

Maybe your TN Legislatures (House Representative or Senator) would go to bat for you. 

I would try contacting one or more of them. 

They like appearing Patriotic to Veterans. 

[JayC]

3 minutes ago, PAULSHOOT said:

Maybe your TN Legislatures (House Representative or Senator) would go to bat for you. 

I would try contacting one or more of them. 

They like appearing Patriotic to Veterans. 

I doubt there is anything they could do, if he answer YES to #13A they're going to deny him period.  Either he answered #13A incorrectly, which means he should appeal the denial, and submit a corrected form...  or he answered it correctly and there is nothing anybody can do to get him a permit.

[eRay]

17 minutes ago, JayC said:

I doubt there is anything they could do, if he answer YES to #13A they're going to deny him period.  Either he answered #13A incorrectly, which means he should appeal the denial, and submit a corrected form...  or he answered it correctly and there is nothing anybody can do to get him a permit.

I had a friend who did just this. He appealed the denial by stating that he "misunderstood" the question. He changed his answer and got his permit renewed with no further problems.

[Oh Shoot]

On 12/18/2017 at 10:17 AM, JayC said:

....

If your husband went to the hospital voluntarily, then he should have answered NO to Question #13A - see https://www.tn.gov/content/tn/safety/handgunmain/handgunfaqs.html#Q10

...

The other possible prob is that Lyrica is on the federal controlled substance list, which TN uses as their definition also. And hospitalization for that has a ten three year reach, whether you voluntarily went in or not, and I suppose they could have gone with that.

edit: voluntary drug stay is three year, not ten

- OS

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

1 hour ago, Oh Shoot said:

The other possible prob is that Lyrica is on the federal controlled substance list, which TN uses as their definition also. And hospitalization for that has a ten year reach, whether you voluntarily went in or not, and I suppose they could have gone with that.

- OS

 

Not unless there is something more to this story not disclosed in the original post.

The way I read her post, her husband was prescribed Lyrica by a doctor, and she didn't indicate that he was addicted or abusing it, only that he had an adverse side effect and stopped taking it.  Use of a controlled substance prescribed by a Doctor is not a factor that can cause you to be denied a permit, or even the purchase of a firearm. (With the exception of pot, but there are 4 people who are prescribed pot through a federal program who can legally own firearms).

So unless he is currently unlawfully using Lyrica, and/or is addicted to using Lyrica (or some other drug) then he wouldn't be denied a permit or have his rights to possess firearms revoked.

I really think his issue is #13A, he either marked yes when he shouldn't, or he was involuntarily committed and won't be able to get his permit back.

[chances R]

Delete

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by chances R

[Oh Shoot]

18 hours ago, JayC said:

Not unless there is something more to this story not disclosed in the original post.

The way I read her post, her husband was prescribed Lyrica by a doctor, and she didn't indicate that he was addicted or abusing it, only that he had an adverse side effect and stopped taking it.  Use of a controlled substance prescribed by a Doctor is not a factor that can cause you to be denied a permit, or even the purchase of a firearm. (With the exception of pot, but there are 4 people who are prescribed pot through a federal program who can legally own firearms).

So unless he is currently unlawfully using Lyrica, and/or is addicted to using Lyrica (or some other drug) then he wouldn't be denied a permit or have his rights to possess firearms revoked.

I really think his issue is #13A, he either marked yes when he shouldn't, or he was involuntarily committed and won't be able to get his permit back.

Of course that is all correct.

And actually, even if they interpreted his explanation to trigger the voluntary admission for drug use, that actually has only a 3 year span, not 10 as I said in original post, so that shouldn't have been the zapper either.

But really, it's not like all the folks in this division of TNDOS have exactly appeal court justice level of legal wisdom or anything, so OP will need to get some direct communication with Lisa there to find out just what their stance is. And unfortunately it might ultimately require a hearing and a mouthpiece to get resolved in her hubbie's favor.

- OS

Edited December 19, 2017 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

2 hours ago, Oh Shoot said:

Of course that is all correct.

And actually, even if they interpreted his explanation to trigger the voluntary admission for drug use, that actually has only a 3 year span, not 10 as I said in original post, so that shouldn't have been the zapper either.

But really, it's not like all the folks in this division of TNDOS have exactly appeal court justice level of legal wisdom or anything, so OP will need to get some direct communication with Lisa there to find out just what their stance is. And unfortunately it might ultimately require a hearing and a mouthpiece to get resolved in her hubbie's favor.

- OS

I agree, but if the stay was voluntary, a simple call to Lisa, and filing an amended renewal form should be enough.  In theory the state would then have to prove you were ineligible...  but TDOS does some very stupid stuff that probably isn't legal on a regular basis.

[JCanan]

On 12/18/2017 at 6:44 AM, DaveTN said:

I could be wrong, but I don’t think this will be a legal battle over interpretation of the law or what the facility was called. I think it will be a common sense determination of the “suicidal” issue. I believe the board will have wide leeway on determining if that is still a factor.

This is exactly why many people won’t seek the mental health help they need. It puts a label on you that may impact you for the rest of your life. A PTSD diagnosis could end your right to have a gun to protect yourself and your family. I don’t know what the answer is.

I agree with this 100%. It sucks. 

[JCanan]

On 12/18/2017 at 9:17 AM, JayC said:

So, here is the tough question...  Was your husband stay in the hospital an 'involuntary commitment'?

IANAL,

If your husband went to the hospital voluntarily, then he should have answered NO to Question #13A - see https://www.tn.gov/content/tn/safety/handgunmain/handgunfaqs.html#Q10

If your husband went to the hospital under an involuntary commitment, then he would be prevented for life from getting an HCP, and most likely be a 'prohibited person' under federal law from possessing any firearms for the rest of his life.  There seems to be some exception depending on the verbiage of the commitment, having to do with 'substantial likelihood of serious harm' and a 7 year sunset.

If it was a 'voluntary' visit, then I'd just fill the form out again, answer #13A as NO (see the link above), and if denied find a lawyer to appeal the denial.  

If it wasn't voluntary, I'd probably find a good lawyer and get a professional option on how this limits your husband's firearm rights.  

Let us know how it turns out please.

My husband's situation is weird as far as voluntary and involuntary admittance goes. He told the psychologist about being suicidal and was told that he could willingly go to the hospital, but if he didn't, they would forcibly take him (per Army protocol). My husband wanted help and knew it was a problem, so he willingly went and when his 2 weeks was up and he didn't feel better (he was slowly weaning off the meds in the facility), he asked if he could stay longer and they let him. 

Anyway, my husband called Lisa Knight two days ago but she wasn't in the office. I'm not sure who he ended up talking to, but the person told him to fill out the application again and mark no for question 13A instead of yes. My husband told him everything I shared with all of you, so he was aware of the situation as it stands. I guess we will see what happens and I'll keep you updated. 

[JCanan]

On 12/18/2017 at 1:22 PM, PAULSHOOT said:

Maybe your TN Legislatures (House Representative or Senator) would go to bat for you. 

I would try contacting one or more of them. 

They like appearing Patriotic to Veterans. 

This is a great idea! As it stands, my husband loves contacting his local representatives, so that's the first thing he did. Haha

[JCanan]

On 12/18/2017 at 11:17 PM, JayC said:

Not unless there is something more to this story not disclosed in the original post.

The way I read her post, her husband was prescribed Lyrica by a doctor, and she didn't indicate that he was addicted or abusing it, only that he had an adverse side effect and stopped taking it.  Use of a controlled substance prescribed by a Doctor is not a factor that can cause you to be denied a permit, or even the purchase of a firearm. (With the exception of pot, but there are 4 people who are prescribed pot through a federal program who can legally own firearms).

So unless he is currently unlawfully using Lyrica, and/or is addicted to using Lyrica (or some other drug) then he wouldn't be denied a permit or have his rights to possess firearms revoked.

I really think his issue is #13A, he either marked yes when he shouldn't, or he was involuntarily committed and won't be able to get his permit back.

He absolutely was not misusing Lyrica. That stuff is horrible and he hated every minute on it. He didn't want to take it to begin with but you have to follow protocol in the military in order to be deemed compliant, so he took it as directed. When he told him psychologist about the way he was feeling on it they asked him to check himself into the hospital, which he willingly did. They did mention that if he didn't, they would forcibly take him, but it never got to that, as he hated how he felt and wanted to get better. 

[JayC]

13 hours ago, JCanan said:

My husband's situation is weird as far as voluntary and involuntary admittance goes. He told the psychologist about being suicidal and was told that he could willingly go to the hospital, but if he didn't, they would forcibly take him (per Army protocol). My husband wanted help and knew it was a problem, so he willingly went and when his 2 weeks was up and he didn't feel better (he was slowly weaning off the meds in the facility), he asked if he could stay longer and they let him. 

Anyway, my husband called Lisa Knight two days ago but she wasn't in the office. I'm not sure who he ended up talking to, but the person told him to fill out the application again and mark no for question 13A instead of yes. My husband told him everything I shared with all of you, so he was aware of the situation as it stands. I guess we will see what happens and I'll keep you updated. 

That sounds like a voluntary admittance, so he should be good to go, let us know what happens please.  These forms are pretty complicated, but as a general rule if you'd marking YES to one of those questions it's going to cause you to be denied.