So We Sit and Wait.....

[Fourtyfive]

It’s real simple to me. Practice makes perfect. If we continue to let them make perfect, we will pay more than the 30,000 in SK; it will be 4,000,000 in San Fran. That’s the real figures. We must cut the head of the SNAKE.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Fourtyfive

[Garufa]

Sounds like some folks want to bring back MacArthur.

If we take action in NK it will be WW III.  

The only question is if the economic impact to this country and the world will be felt before or after the destruction of millions of people.

NK having nukes has jack to do with what I just said, btw.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Garufa

[DaveTN]

10 hours ago, btq96r said:

I have a hard time thinking North Korea is refining a military nuclear program just so they can launch at the US mainland someday. 

I have an easy time thinking North Korea is refining a military nuclear program so that all future dealings with them are conducted in some semi-balance of M.A.D. in mind.  The calculus of how we deal with countries changes big time when they have a credible nuclear threat.  North Korea views their nuclear program is insurance, and what we hear come out of the official state news has to be looked at as for domestic consumption before looking at it as their policy. 

If North Korea shoots first, of course we need to come down with the appropriate hammer right away.  I'm not sure if a preemptive strike, or striking once they have verified capability is the right answer.  We could truthfully live with North Korea having the technology to attack us with nukes...but whether or not we want to is a helluva question.  To date, we've not acted against any hostile country when they reached that level.  North Korea, and Iran seem to be different.  Again, still not sure for my money.  I also wonder if it's truly our prerogative to essentially condemn a staggering amount of innocent people in South Korea to death as they would be caught in any crossfire we start.

This.

I don’t believe the UN or anyone else can tell a country they can’t have the weapons needed to defend themselves. Unless that authority is ready and willing to protect them.

Japan is second only to the United States in financial contributions to the UN. Yet the UN stands by as North Korea fire their missiles towards Japan.

Japan is already talking about changing its Constitution that won’t allow them to have a standing military or engaging in war. Their two main reasons are North Korea and China. While we would certainly support them in actions against North Korea, we could find ourselves in a dilemma with China.

I feel the same way about this that I do with our citizens having the right the keep and bear arms; if they commit a crime you deal with it then, you don’t ban it because someone may commit a crime.

MAD has been what has kept the world from nuclear holocaust for the last 70 years and remains so today. It is what would keep the North Koreans from launching at us. Once they launch; they will surely die, and we don’t need to use nukes to do it. They know that.

However… when you start throwing missiles, armed or not, at other countries, or you start conducting nuclear tests that could impact other countries; you have crossed the line. Think how the people of Japan must feel.

I (and I think most other Americans) have no problem with the total devastation of North Korea. But we have to figure out a way to do it without killing our troops and millions of citizens in South Korea. It’s not worth 25K U.S. troop’s lives. NK is not an immediate threat to us.

[Chucktshoes]

This seems like an opportune time to reiterate that nuclear proliferation is simply a market response to U.S. foreign policy. 

 

If I was in leadership of any nation state that was not interested in being a ally/syncophant of the U.S., I would aggressively be pursuing a nuke program. It's the best way to keep the U.S. from ####ing with you if you have conflicting goals. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Chucktshoes

[analog_kidd]

The thing I would like to see is that we blow up everyone of his test missiles as he launches them. It would give us good practice at shooting down ballistic missiles, and it would show KJU that we can do it. As soon as one of his missiles crosses outside of NK airspace, whoosh, off go our interceptors. He'll pitch a fit and call it an act of aggression, and we'll say we were taking defensive action against his aggression. Once we show him we can take out his ICBM's he will have no leverage against us.

That, and we need China to cut off all their oil and gas. That will cripple them.

[gregintenn]

Quote

4 hours ago, DaveTN said:

This.

I don’t believe the UN or anyone else can tell a country they can’t have the weapons needed to defend themselves. Unless that authority is ready and willing to protect them.

Japan is second only to the United States in financial contributions to the UN. Yet the UN stands by as North Korea fire their missiles towards Japan.

Japan is already talking about changing its Constitution that won’t allow them to have a standing military or engaging in war. Their two main reasons are North Korea and China. While we would certainly support them in actions against North Korea, we could find ourselves in a dilemma with China.

I feel the same way about this that I do with our citizens having the right the keep and bear arms; if they commit a crime you deal with it then, you don’t ban it because someone may commit a crime.

MAD has been what has kept the world from nuclear holocaust for the last 70 years and remains so today. It is what would keep the North Koreans from launching at us. Once they launch; they will surely die, and we don’t need to use nukes to do it. They know that.

However… when you start throwing missiles, armed or not, at other countries, or you start conducting nuclear tests that could impact other countries; you have crossed the line. Think how the people of Japan must feel.

I (and I think most other Americans) have no problem with the total devastation of North Korea. But we have to figure out a way to do it without killing our troops and millions of citizens in South Korea. It’s not worth 25K U.S. troop’s lives. NK is not an immediate threat to us.

 

Quote

1 hour ago, Chucktshoes said:

This seems like an opportune time to reiterate that nuclear proliferation is simply a market response to U.S. foreign policy. 

 

If I was in leadership of any nation state that was not interested in being a ally/syncophant of the U.S., I would aggressively be pursuing a nuke program. It's the best way to keep the U.S. from ####ing with you if you have conflicting goals. 

 

I can't argue with either post. I see no easy answers to this dilemma we find ourselves in, but I do not care for being repeatedly threatened by anyone. I guess if diplomacy were easy, we'd send the girl scouts to do it.

[A.J. Holst]

My brother just returned from a 4 year deployment in Korea.

His opinion is non-nuclear military action would resemble causality rates on par with the Battle of Somme, a generation of North and South Koreans and their allies lost in days or weeks.

Artillery and Rockets? Add population density, north and south. 

[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, analog_kidd said:

The thing I would like to see is that we blow up everyone of his test missiles as he launches them. It would give us good practice at shooting down ballistic missiles, and it would show KJU that we can do it. As soon as one of his missiles crosses outside of NK airspace, whoosh, off go our interceptors.

We can’t kill a missile on its way up. We could probably kill it on its way down if we had missile defense downrange ready. But the risk of failure or damage to innocents is great. If we attempt to shoot down a missile and miss; we have a problem. The Chinese and the Russians would probably like to see our attempts at shooting down a missile.

Being able to shoot down missiles isn’t what stops aggressors from shooting at us. The knowledge that even if their missiles hit their mark we are going to kill them is what stops them.

Edited December 2, 2017 by DaveTN

[GlockSpock]

Haven’t we mostly disproved the EMP threat from an atmospheric blast caused by a nuke this size?

Dang good question, wish I knew. Someone jumps up and says nothing to worry about and then a few months later someone else jumps up and says that it is the biggest threat we have.

The thing I would like to see is that we blow up everyone of his test missiles as he launches them. It would give us good practice at shooting down ballistic missiles, and it would show KJU that we can do it. As soon as one of his missiles crosses outside of NK airspace, whoosh, off go our interceptors. He'll pitch a fit and call it an act of aggression, and we'll say we were taking defensive action against his aggression. Once we show him we can take out his ICBM's he will have no leverage against us.
That, and we need China to cut off all their oil and gas. That will cripple them.

So the people within artillery range aren’t leverage?



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[bersaguy]

11 minutes ago, CZ9MM said:

 

 

Dang good question, wish I knew. Someone jumps up and says nothing to worry about and then a few months later someone else jumps up and says that it is the biggest threat we have.



So the people within artillery range aren’t leverage?



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Well, I have heard people say Rocketman is crazy and totally unstable and then I have read where people say that he is not crazy but just very cunning and playing with the United States. Then there are people on the fence that are't sure whether he is nuts or not. I'm still wondering where he is getting all of the ICBM's he is throwing into the oceans and making Trump hate him everytime he does it. Some country has got to be supplying them cause with all the sanctions placed on him already he can't be buying the damn things!!!..............JMHO 

[GlockSpock]

4 hours ago, bersaguy said:

Well, I have heard people say Rocketman is crazy and totally unstable and then I have read where people say that he is not crazy but just very cunning and playing with the United States. Then there are people on the fence that are't sure whether he is nuts or not. I'm still wondering where he is getting all of the ICBM's he is throwing into the oceans and making Trump hate him everytime he does it. Some country has got to be supplying them cause with all the sanctions placed on him already he can't be buying the damn things!!!..............JMHO 

They are doing rocket testing. What have you seen that leads you believe they haven't been creating and testing them?

 

If he is "getting ICBM's" from anywhere else already established, he's getting ripped off by all accounts.

Edited December 3, 2017 by CZ9MM

[bersaguy]

2 minutes ago, CZ9MM said:

They are doing rocket testing. What have you seen that leads you believe they haven't been creating and testing them?

 

If he were "getting ICBM's" from anywhere else already established, he's getting ripped off by all accounts.

I guess mostly because there are still civilians alive in NK cause if they were having to make all the components it takes to build one the first place he will go to get money is starve the civilians. He is being sold probably 50+ year old obselete missiles and trying to get them to do things they were never designed to do. That is probably why he can afford them if he is in fact buying them.......JMHO

[GlockSpock]

I guess mostly because there are still civilians alive in NK cause if they were having to make all the components it takes to build one the first place he will go to get money is starve the civilians. He is being sold probably 50+ year old obselete missiles and trying to get them to do things they were never designed to do. That is probably why he can afford them if he is in fact buying them.......JMHO

50 years ago was right around the height of the Cold War. The technology from then was and is still very capable and dangerous.

The “Minuteman 3” (the only land based ICBM currently in our arsenal) went into service in 1970.


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[Fourtyfive]

He is pushing every envelope in his power. There is no food, even the military is told to go steal corn and rice. If you are a scientist your family is in danger if you do not improve what he wants. It’s called a totalitarian dictatorship. If you know otherwise than tell me. The North Korean country is at the end of the noose. KJ is about to do something really stoopid (spelt like Alice Cooper would do), Mark My Words.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Fourtyfive

[JayC]

On 12/1/2017 at 4:03 PM, peejman said:

The defenseless part. 

Well, a polar orbit from North Korea could place the device coming over the United States from the Gulf of Mexico, where we have no missile defense coverage.  Our missile defense coverage is designed to destroy missiles in 2 of 3 phases of flight, the boost phase when the missile is launching out of the atmosphere, and the terminal phase when it's either about to or entering the atmosphere.

While we have shot down a satellite in orbit before, there are a couple of issues that pose an 'issue' for doing so in this case.  We had very accurate orbital data on those satellites because first we owned them, and second they had been in space for weeks or months and were able to gather very accurate data ahead of time.  Second, we haven't shot a satellite down at the height of the above example.

So to recap:

1. Our current missile defense system designed to destroy incoming ballistic missiles has a very poor track record in real world tests, with a 50% hit rate.

2. It only covers missiles on a ballistic path from China and Russia. For example there is no coverage along the east coast or the gulf of mexico.

3. We've never demonstrated the ability to knock satellites down in this type of orbit, with as little information as we'd have, and at the altitude of such an attack.

Could we have some type of un-demonstrated ability yes, but these systems are complicated and big, it would be VERY hard to hide testing in this domain from the public, or other major powers.

[JayC]

On 12/1/2017 at 4:24 PM, MacGyver said:

Haven’t we mostly disproved the EMP threat from an atmospheric blast caused by a nuke this size?

Yes, EMP threat requires the device to be detonated in space.  While it's true there would be a EMP present in a traditional ballistic missile denotation, it's well within the 'kill' line of the device itself.  Otherwise stated, if your watch dies from an such an EMP, you're dead anyway.

[DaveTN]

Our Missile Defense System certainly does cover the east coast. The only people wanting to add east coast sites are the politicians that would get billions of dollars pouring into their states economies.

Neither the Pentagon nor the Missile Defense Agency want or see the need for those sites. They want to spend the money on improving the technology of what we already have and the amount of missiles.

If you aren’t sure you could take out ICBM’s it doesn’t make sense to spend more money on sites instead of improving what you have.

[leroy]

Here is the most interesting thing that ive seen RE: "the North Korea" thing... The chinese cuttin the bridge...

Here... This is interesting... 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-closing-main-road-connection-with-north-korea/2017/11/24/322f9f24-d107-11e7-a87b-47f14b73162a_story.html?utm_term=.d4619038fe21

These are the only guys that can do anything with North Korea... 

leroy...

[DaveTN]

35 minutes ago, leroy said:

Here is the most interesting thing that ive seen RE: "the North Korea" thing... The chinese cuttin the bridge...

Here... This is interesting... 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-closing-main-road-connection-with-north-korea/2017/11/24/322f9f24-d107-11e7-a87b-47f14b73162a_story.html?utm_term=.d4619038fe21

These are the only guys that can do anything with North Korea... 

leroy...

I find it amusing how the press spins this. Most of the stories lead with “China shuts down..” while only one leads with “North Korea shuts down…”. So has NK simply shut the bridge down while they do repairs on their side? Or is this some action by China to impact trade/travel with NK? 

[bersaguy]

9 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I find it amusing how the press spins this. Most of the stories lead with “China shuts down..” while only one leads with “North Korea shuts down…”. So has NK simply shut the bridge down while they do repairs on their side? Or is this some action by China to impact trade/travel with NK? 

I guess only time will answer that question...........JMHO but I hope it is China cutting strings with NK!!!

[leroy]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

I…”. So has NK simply shut the bridge down while they do repairs on their side? Or is this some action by China to impact trade/travel with NK? 

I wonder about this myself... There is some stuff out there that seems to say that China is trying to appeal to Ki Jong's good sense... I think the Chinese are the only folks that can affect anything with North Korea...

leroy...

[diamondback]

I have friends from south korea and have been told the ruling family of north korea is crazy enough to believe they could survive and win a war with the usa. The only reason we have not taken them out yet is china. They have a mutual protection pack and china wont get involved if NK starts with the usa. China really needs to rethink this as we could also pull our business from china. There are plenty of countries that would welcome our factories and business. also I am sure china knkows both countries would be destroyed and should know that NK is not worth it. Another issue is that with NK getting a pass what happens when IRAN or another countries tries this? I guess it depends on who is backing them. I have been told Israel will handle iran though.

[bersaguy]

4 minutes ago, leroy said:

I wonder about this myself... There is some stuff out there that seems to say that China is trying to appeal to Ki Jong's good sense... I think the Chinese are the only folks that can affect anything with North Korea...

leroy...

I think I agree with you leroy. I honestly think if China cuts the strings with NK the country would whither away like grapes on a vine due to lack of water. I think China wishes it was not the deal maker or breaker in this mess but they for the most part are. On one hand they have a country that is their neighbor that they have been helping keep afloat with a crazy radical leader that even kills his own relatives to stay in power and on the other hand they have all of the American businesses which they could very possibly begin to pull out and at that point NK would become a real burden on them with less money coming in to support their own people. Would not be a tough decision on my part but then I don't think like they do in China either.........JMHO  

[Oh Shoot]

6 hours ago, JayC said:

Yes, EMP threat requires the device to be detonated in space.  ...

Well, the NK missiles certainly reach "space", last one was 2800 miles  (the International Space Station orbits at 220 miles).

- OS

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Oh Shoot

[bersaguy]

1 hour ago, Oh Shoot said:

Well, the NK missiles certainly reach "space", last one was 2800 miles  (the International Space Station orbits at 220 miles).

- OS

 

Well we know he can get a ICBM way up in the sky but can't get it to re-enter without burning up so if he blows an EMP in outer space can he take out the space station. I bet that would Pizz of a few countries huh?