Remington on life support?

[monkeylizard]

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-phillydeals/gunmaker-remington-faces-default-as-americans-buy-fewer-firearms-20171117.html

Sounds pretty bad for them right now.

[MacGyver]

So many of the manufacturers are leveraged to their eyeballs and have depended on military contracts to stay afloat.  

It wouldn’t surprise me to see us a few of the brands bought for pennies on the dollar at auction over the next few years. 

[Chucktshoes]

59 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

So many of the manufacturers are leveraged to their eyeballs and have depended on military contracts to stay afloat.  

It wouldn’t surprise me to see us a few of the brands bought for pennies on the dollar at auction over the next few years. 

It would surprise me to NOT see this happen. 

[A.J. Holst]

$169 for an RP9 after rebate?

I don't think they were planning on using this product as a tax write-off.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I suspect Remington isn't the only one in trouble. Before the election all everyone heard was Hillary was going to win. And had she won gun sales would have been at a frenzied pace, like never before, as everyone bought guns. Remington probably leveraged a lot of its wealth preparing for what all of us expected. When it didn't happen Remington was stuck holding a bunch of debt with lackluster sales. 

The gun market is in a slump. When was the last time you could buy a complete AR for $250. Dare I say it hasn't happened since the first AR hit the market in the 60's but we seen it this week. 

The ONLY way any manufacturer is going to do well in this market is with new, innovative products. The big three, Colt, Remington and S&W, haven't been on the leading edge of anything in probably a century. They think people want the same, old products but as we are seeing people are throwing there money elsewhere. 

 

[Dolomite_supafly]

7 hours ago, Gotthegoods said:

$169 for an RP9 after rebate?

I don't think they were planning on using this product as a tax write-off.

The RP9 is not selling because it is an ugly gun. I think most gun owners are just as worried about how a gun looks. The RP9, if you squint just a little bit, looks a lot like a Highpoint and we all know owning one is like riding a moped, it's cool until your friends see you.

[DaveTN]

Remington spent a lot of money in capital improvements and new facilities.

Expansion at Ilion, Madison NC, facilities at Huntsville, AL, Mayfield, KY, Lonoke, AR.

That’s risky depending on the market. I hope things work out for them; we can’t afford to lose any American gun makers.

[Erik88]

2 hours ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

The RP9 is not selling because it is an ugly gun. I think most gun owners are just as worried about how a gun looks. The RP9, if you squint just a little bit, looks a lot like a Highpoint and we all know owning one is like riding a moped, it's cool until your friends see you.

I wouldn't buy an RP9 for a lot of reasons. It being ugly as sin is the least of my worries. 

[Danger Rane]

Remington can try to blame their failings on the currently saturated market, but the reality is that they have not kept themselves relevant to he current gun culture.

[Chucktshoes]

 

29 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I wouldn't buy an RP9 for a lot of reasons. It being ugly as sin is the least of my worries. 

At least the Hi-Point will work

[DaveTN]

52 minutes ago, Danger Rane said:

Remington can try to blame their failings on the currently saturated market, but the reality is that they have not kept themselves relevant to he current gun culture.

Maybe not in handguns or AR’s; but they own the Bolt Action Rifle and Shotgun market. They may not be the only one in those markets but they are so far ahead of the competition, the competition can’t see their taillights. I would think they could survive on that alone.

When you add in DPMS and Bushmaster I would say they are pretty relevant.

[Dolomite_supafly]

6 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Maybe not in handguns or AR’s; but they own the Bolt Action Rifle and Shotgun market. They may not be the only one in those markets but they are so far ahead of the competition, the competition can’t see their taillights. I would think they could survive on that alone.

When you add in DPMS and Bushmaster I would say they are pretty relevant.

Remington 700’s are hardly as popular as it once was. The 700 is too pricey to compete with guns of comparable quality or accuracy and they are not good enough to compete with higher priced guns. 

That is why the 783 was brought to market. It is a better rifle than the 700 and cheaper allowing it to compete withguns the 700 just can’t compete with. 

The only thing the 700 has is a HUGE amount of aftermarket parts. 10 years ago that was a big deal but today almost anything you can buy for your 700 you can also buy for another brand. 

There is nothing a 700 can do that a cheaper brand can’t. 

[Chucktshoes]

3 hours ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

Remington 700’s are hardly as popular as it once was. The 700 is too pricey to compete with guns of comparable quality or accuracy and they are not good enough to compete with higher priced guns. 

That is why the 783 was brought to market. It is a better rifle than the 700 and cheaper allowing it to compete withguns the 700 just can’t compete with. 

The only thing the 700 has is a HUGE amount of aftermarket parts. 10 years ago that was a big deal but today almost anything you can buy for your 700 you can also buy for another brand. 

There is nothing a 700 can do that a cheaper brand can’t. 

And a lot of the 700 actions that folks are building custom guns on aren't even made by Remington. Instead they're made by third party folks putting out the quality and features that Remington either can't or won't. At this point Remington has something more akin to inertia, not true market share. Ask Colt how well that works out. 

[Ronald_55]

On 11/25/2017 at 7:44 AM, Dolomite_supafly said:

I suspect Remington isn't the only one in trouble. Before the election all everyone heard was Hillary was going to win. And had she won gun sales would have been at a frenzied pace, like never before, as everyone bought guns. Remington probably leveraged a lot of its wealth preparing for what all of us expected. When it didn't happen Remington was stuck holding a bunch of debt with lackluster sales. 

The gun market is in a slump. When was the last time you could buy a complete AR for $250. Dare I say it hasn't happened since the first AR hit the market in the 60's but we seen it this week. 

The ONLY way any manufacturer is going to do well in this market is with new, innovative products. The big three, Colt, Remington and S&W, haven't been on the leading edge of anything in probably a century. They think people want the same, old products but as we are seeing people are throwing there money elsewhere. 

 

So where did I miss that $250 Ar at?

It is not just guns. I bought some Remington Core-lokt  .308 when the rebate was running. Ran a box yesterday to sight in. Got  a total dud round. No light strike and I tried it 3 times. Never had that happen on new name brand ammo before. My Dad swears by Remington ammo and I never remember a dud in all the shooting we did. 

Lots of iconic brands have either cut quality to make a price point, are over priced compared to equal guns, or have sold off their name. 

Some tried getting into Ars and such too late. As the hunting public declines, they have to introduce designs for the others in the shooting community.   

[Chris]

I've had similar problems w/ core-lokt. It's cheap and generally performs well, but in the six years I've been using it, I've had two dud rounds while hunting and a handful more at the range. Once I use up what I've got I'll probably start looking around for something to replace it.

[felinesNfreedom]

3 hours ago, Ronald_55 said:

So where did I miss that $250 Ar at? 

Freedom munitions had Bushmasters for 250.00 on Black Friday. I wanted one but missed out due to a screwy website and confusing email about the start time. 

[Danger Rane]

On 11/25/2017 at 10:12 AM, DaveTN said:

Maybe not in handguns or AR’s; but they own the Bolt Action Rifle and Shotgun market. They may not be the only one in those markets but they are so far ahead of the competition, the competition can’t see their taillights. I would think they could survive on that alone.

When you add in DPMS and Bushmaster I would say they are pretty relevant.

I disagree that they still own the bolt action and shotgun market. There are certainly still a plethora of them in the field sure, but there are enough Remington competitors putting out the same quality or better at a similar or lower price point (and often with modernized features) that the Big Green is no longer the market leader and trend setter that it once was. As Dolomite mention, the aftermarket for the 700s is huge, as is the market for aftermarket 870 accessories, which is why you still see "Remington" mentioned in almost every add and advertisement. There are numerous established and upstart companies making models that are essentially improved copycats of the Remington design, which obviously speaks to the popularity and solid engineering it once had. I am a long time Big Green fan and my favorite rifle is a Rem 40x in .308, but I will be the first to say that I am disappointed in Remington for letting their creative juices stagnate.

As for the relevance of DPMS and Bushmaster they are not Remington any more than Marlin and AAC are, they are siblings under the Freedom Group umbrella. While there are at times collaborative projects between the companies it is my understanding that they are managed as individual companies who's successes and failures do not really effect the others. One thing Freedom Group appears to have done somewhat successfully is get their claws into enough different subcultures of the gun market to somewhat counter effect a drop in any particular group. While they must certainly be feeling the effects of the post election buying slump that this year brought, the problems at Remington run deeper than that. 

[btq96r]

The gun market is going through a two pronged revolution...

The minor part is the dip in sales with President Trump in power.  That can end in as soon as three years, and will ebb and flow with power changes in Washington.  Companies need to be ready to ride those out and think about investing the dividends from the good years to carry them through the bad. 

The major part  that is here to stay is how consumers are getting pickier, and companies are having to rely on more than the multiple generations of brand name loyalty.  Remington is finding themselves chasing the market (the RP9 makes that clear).  Instead of leading where they have the expertise to redefine the industry standard, bolt action rifles and shotguns. 

I want Remington to survive and thrive in their third century, but they need to want to earn it.

[No_0ne]

6 hours ago, btq96r said:

The gun market is going through a two pronged revolution...

The minor part is the dip in sales with President Trump in power.  That can end in as soon as three years, and will ebb and flow with power changes in Washington.  Companies need to be ready to ride those out and think about investing the dividends from the good years to carry them through the bad. 

The major part  that is here to stay is how consumers are getting pickier, and companies are having to rely on more than the multiple generations of brand name loyalty.  Remington is finding themselves chasing the market (the RP9 makes that clear).  Instead of leading where they have the expertise to redefine the industry standard, bolt action rifles and shotguns. 

I want Remington to survive and thrive in their third century, but they need to want to earn it.

And as others have said, virtually all of the major gun manufacturers in the US are leveraged to the hilt, some due to expansion and modernization, some due to what amounts to rape of their investors and creditors by the hedge funds and holding companies that own them ( i.e. Colt, et al).  As such, they are in no position to survive even a minor downturn in sales, as most if not all of their cash flow is directed at staving off bankruptcy due to their excessive debt load. Except for Ruger, which is now, as always, debt free with sufficient cash to ride out the current slump, we will probably see another round of bankruptcies and consolidations before any of these companies start turning any profits again ...

[DaveTN]

Some of these gun companies need to cut distributors and ship directly to FFL’s. Distributors add no value to retail customers. This is the IT age; we should be able to order directly from the manufacturer’s website and have them delivered to our FFL. Local dealers would also be able to order guns for us and be able to give us a date instead of being at the mercy of a distributor.

[btq96r]

3 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Some of these gun companies need to cut distributors and ship directly to FFL’s. Distributors add no value to retail customers. This is the IT age; we should be able to order directly from the manufacturer’s website and have them delivered to our FFL. Local dealers would also be able to order guns for us and be able to give us a date instead of being at the mercy of a distributor.

Concur.

[Wingshooter]

On 11/25/2017 at 7:44 AM, Dolomite_supafly said:

 

The gun market is in a slump. When was the last time you could buy a complete AR for $250. Dare I say it hasn't happened since the first AR hit the market in the 60's but we seen it this week. 

 

 

Wow... 250. I've been out of the loop here for the last couple of months due to job change and heavy training schedule. 250... nice!

[Dolomite_supafly]

Another HUGE problem all of the "old guard" gun manufacturers have is thinking THEY know what the customer wants without listening to those customers. They have the "take it or leave it" attitude and now a lot of us are leaving it because they are no longer worth the asking price.

One thing I will say about Savage is they do listen and do give the customers what they want. Ruger is another company listening to its customers and offering new, innovative products customers want. 

Remington quality has not improved despite all the modernization and customers are noticing. There are a lot of gun smiths who make a living fixing quality issues that Remington should be doing. 

Looking at the Remington website they have a Magpul edition R700 that has an MSRP of $1,175. Figure a street price of $900. They take a <$400 rifle and add a $250 stock then try to tell their customers it is worth almost double. That tells me that they are looking for customers who are buying a Remington because it has the Remington name and not because it is a value or because it is a gun of higher quality. 

 

 

[felinesNfreedom]

40 minutes ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

Looking at the Remington website they have a Magpul edition R700 that has an MSRP of $1,175. Figure a street price of $900. They take a <$400 rifle and add a $250 stock then try to tell their customers it is worth almost double. That tells me that they are looking for customers who are buying a Remington because it has the Remington name and not because it is a value or because it is a gun of higher quality. 

 

 

I will admit that working at Academy has opened my eyes on how many people are oblivious to the current AR market. I feel bad selling some of the AR'S we do at the prices we have. I have been known to open peoples eyes to certain websites so they can purchase more for their money. We sell a ton of the DPMS Sportical's and it just bugs the crap out of me that so many people buy it when there are so many better options out there at the price point.

[DaveTN]

Whether it be Remington, Savage, Winchester or whoever; we are the winners. They all have lines from the entry level priced rifles to those costing thousands. I don’t want to see any of the choices go by the wayside. It’s up to the shooter to do their homework and determine what is the best choice for their budget. All we can do as owners is give our opinions based on what we have, and what we have owned.

The difference between two shooters abilities will almost certainly always be greater than the difference between two rifles.

Edited November 27, 2017 by DaveTN