Bipartisan deal on gun control unveiled

[The Legion]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/senators-near-bipartisan-deal-gun-control-sources-say-n821256

 

WASHINGTON — A bipartisan group of senators Thursday unveiled legislation to improve background-checks for gun sales, a narrow measure that attempts to address the recent spate of mass shootings.

The bill represents an incremental update to existing law but has the best chance of any effort to pass through Congress in recent years, with the weight of support from senior Senate Republicans behind it and no public opposition from the gun lobby.

The bill, crafted by Sens. John Cornyn, R.-Texas, and Chris Murphy, D-Conn., would attempt to better enforce current law and strengthen the National Instant Criminal Background Check system to ensure all background check information is uploaded.

According to a description of the bill, first obtained by NBC News, the “Fix NICS Act” offers a handful of solutions to help get all the necessary records uploaded, including asking federal agencies and states to produce plans to upload and verify the criminal and mental health records necessary to bar unfit purchasers from buying a weapon.

Because the federal government can't force states to comply with uploading requirements, it creates incentives like grants for states to do so. It also adds accountability measures like withholding political appointees bonuses for agencies that fail to do so. The bill also directs federal funds to ensure that domestic violence crimes are added to the background-check system.

This is the third attempt to fix the background-check reporting system since 1995. The NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007 provided millions to encourage the states to improve their data sharing. That was preceded by The National Criminal History Improvement Program, the first effort to give the states an incentive to report more records.

“For years agencies and states haven’t complied with the law, failing to upload these critical records without consequence,” Cornyn said in a statement announcing the effort Thursday. “Just one record that’s not properly reported can lead to tragedy, as the country saw last week in Sutherland Springs, Texas. This bill aims to help fix what’s become a nationwide, systemic problem so we can better prevent criminals and domestic abusers from obtaining firearms.”

“This deal will strengthen the background check system and save lives. Our bill marks an important milestone that shows real compromise can be made on the issue of guns," Murphy added.

The National Rifle Association, a powerful gun lobby that gives heavily to elected officials, won't oppose it. “The National Rifle Association has long supported the inclusion of all appropriate records in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System," Jennifer Baker, NRA spokeswoman, told NBC News.

And the National Shooting Sports Foundation has also endorsed, clearing the way for the Senate to move ahead.

Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn., and Sen. Tim Scott, R-S.C., have also signed onto the bill, as have Sens. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, Dean Heller, R-Nev., and Jeanne Shaheen, D-N.H.

Cornyn, Murphy, Blumenthal and Heller are represent states with the most deadly mass shootings: the Sutherland Springs church shooting, Sandy Hook, and the concert massacre in Las Vegas.

Both Murphy, who has advocated for gun control legislation since the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2013, and Blumenthal hinted at an agreement earlier Wednesday on Twitter. Meanwhile, Cornyn, the Senate majority whip, told reporters Sunday, "We need to fix this broken background check system."

The last time gun control legislation came close to passing was after Sandy Hook when Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., and Sen. Pat Toomey, R-Pa., fell four vote shorts of passing their bill to strengthen background checks. Their bill was more expansive than the current one. It would have required background checks for gun purchases at gun shows and online.

The proposed legislation comes as funerals are taking place for 26 churchgoers gunned down in tiny Sutherland Springs, Texas. The shooter's domestic violence conviction should have blocked his purchase of a rifle used in the massacre, but was not submitted to the background check system by the military.

[JayC]

58 minutes ago, The Legion said:

The National Rifle Association, a powerful gun lobby that gives heavily to elected officials, won't oppose it. “The National Rifle Association has long supported the inclusion of all appropriate records in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System," Jennifer Baker, NRA spokeswoman, told NBC News.

Negotiate Rights Away strikes again!

[nightrunner]

43 minutes ago, JayC said:

Negotiate Rights Away strikes again!

Please explain how this is negotiating rights away. This is nothing more than feel good legislation, saying that they (Republicans) are compromising on gun control, when in reality it is just telling the ones responsible for reporting that they need to do what they are supposed to be doing anyways. I see no reason at all to oppose this, it changes nothing.

[JayC]

16 minutes ago, nightrunner said:

Please explain how this is negotiating rights away. This is nothing more than feel good legislation, saying that they (Republicans) are compromising on gun control, when in reality it is just telling the ones responsible for reporting that they need to do what they are supposed to be doing anyways. I see no reason at all to oppose this, it changes nothing.

The background check system is a complete waste of money and time.  The people causing these mass shootings are going to:

1. Pass the background check anyhow.

2. Commit another serious crime to gain access to firearms.

All the background check system does is waste the time and money of otherwise law abiding citizens...  It's not fixable, so why throw good money after bad on a 'feel' good system?

[n0rlf]

It will not change anything for most. You will not spend more time waiting on a check to go through. So again how is this negotiating rights away?

Not to say it is not worthless and a waste of money though. 

[JayC]

34 minutes ago, n0rlf said:

It will not change anything for most. You will not spend more time waiting on a check to go through. So again how is this negotiating rights away?

Not to say it is not worthless and a waste of money though. 

The NRA should take a zero tolerance policy of new gun laws, and should be working to repeal as many of these silly laws as possible...  instead they're providing cover for Republicans to vote to waste more money on gun laws that only impact law abiding citizens.

And remember how we got the Hughes Amendment?  A late night voice vote adding the machine gun ban to the FOPA of 1986, which the NRA allowed to go through.

[n0rlf]

You lose nothing in this. If you lose nothing how is it at all negotiating rights away? I understand your stand on not losing any further rights but this is nothing more than enforcing existing law. Do you really think you will see gun law repeals in this current environment? If so I would say good luck at best and you are dreaming and deranged at worst. Not that most here would ever disagree with getting rid of gun laws. Most of us would but we also understand futility. Give it some time and we can talk about it when there are not warm bodies still. That is never good optics. 

[jughead]

one always loses when one compromises with what one already has.

[n0rlf]

Point is there was no compromise. We gave up nothing and got nothing. 

If it does keep a gun out of the hand of a potential mass killer without effecting you how is that bad in any way?

[Hozzie]

While it probably won’t stop a person from getting a gun if they really want one, it might delay them. That can sometimes make a difference.  There’s is no logical reason to oppose this.  Ideological yes, logical no..

[Garufa]

2 hours ago, JayC said:

The background check system is a complete waste of money and time.  The people causing these mass shootings are going to:

1. Pass the background check anyhow.

2. Commit another serious crime to gain access to firearms.

All the background check system does is waste the time and money of otherwise law abiding citizens...  It's not fixable, so why throw good money after bad on a 'feel' good system?

The Texas church shooter had a disqualifying event that would have prevented him from legally purchasing a firearm but he Air Force did not report it

Edited November 16, 2017 by Garufa

[DaveTN]

As I have said before; I don’t have a problem with background checks. But I don’t see either side getting on this “mental Health” train.

Is anyone that has been diagnosed with PTSD going to lose their gun rights?

How about those prescribed drugs for stress or depression?

Not very many “mental health” problems go through the courts.

Yes, we now have a shooter that should not have been able to pass a background check; but did. Would that have stopped him from getting a gun? I doubt it, but that just a wild azz guess based on the fact that he could certainly get one in Tennessee no matter if he was a convicted wife beater or a convicted murderer.

[n0rlf]

My issue and concern is that I am human. Since we have the tool why not make it work as it should? Good points and questions raised and I sure do not have the answers. This latest nut job in California had been reported for shooting many times, and the result, Nothing, cops walked away. now there are 5 people dead.

I understand not punishing good people for actions of bad people but a BGC is not a punishment of more than a few extra minutes and a few dollars (Yes I have a problem with paying for it) but I also understand the need. 

Ask this question, fifty years ago you could walk into a sears and buy a gun and walk right out. Not a lot of mass killings. Today, it is much more difficult to purchase a firearm legally and yet mass shootings are increasing. Now personally I tend to think it is related to the instant mass social media we have and the over abundance of mental health issues. Since I think that is the case I am good with BGCs as it is a very small inconvienence for me. 

I think part of the solution is to take a hammer to 95% of the cell phones and tablets. Kids do not go out to play anymore, they are on the internet all day. Been that way for the last 15 years or so. Kids are no longer being raised at all rather thrown a phone and left to their own. That is a serious problem. I see it with my own grandchildren and discussed it with my daughter. Kids are now getting rationed on the tablet usage. Keep in mind this is a 2 and a 4 year old. Dang, at that age I was kicking kittens and eating dirt. That right there coupled with what our kids see on the internet and movies is a big part of the problem.

So, do we ignore the mental health aspect of mass shootings? Heck no! And if we do not ignore it then we should at least get it under control on people buying guns.

I know that is an ideological issue for some but it is reality these days. Perhaps we can work back to when the guns laws were much more lax and we had less issues but I for one doubt it. Is there anyone that really believes we will see a time we do not have to have NFA rules anymore? Once a right is restricted it is rarely given back. Sad, but true. In this case there is no further restriction being imposed and it could lead to no more if we handle it right. Worth a shot in my mind. 

I guess as I have no wool and am not a sheep I am not going to be herded. By either of the extreme sides.

[nightrunner]

Regarding more attacks now than in the past, “The Strenuous Life” a speech by Theodore Roosevelt in 1899 is a good read. Essentially it explains how the human body operates best when physical stress is balanced with mental stress. Many people in modern times have immense amounts of mental stress and very little physical stress. High mental stress not balanced out with physical stress has created all of these mental health issues.

[Hershmeister]

Let me get this straight.....government agencies refuse to comply with existing law, which is a criminal offense - so the solution is to provide financial incentives? Wtf?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mikegideon]

4 hours ago, JayC said:

The background check system is a complete waste of money and time.  The people causing these mass shootings are going to:

1. Pass the background check anyhow.

2. Commit another serious crime to gain access to firearms.

All the background check system does is waste the time and money of otherwise law abiding citizens...  It's not fixable, so why throw good money after bad on a 'feel' good system?

Correct. But we are stuck with it unless you can figure out a way to chase all the liberals out of the country. If you do, holler. I'm going with you  

[JayC]

36 minutes ago, n0rlf said:

My issue and concern is that I am human. Since we have the tool why not make it work as it should? Good points and questions raised and I sure do not have the answers. This latest nut job in California had been reported for shooting many times, and the result, Nothing, cops walked away. now there are 5 people dead.

I understand not punishing good people for actions of bad people but a BGC is not a punishment of more than a few extra minutes and a few dollars (Yes I have a problem with paying for it) but I also understand the need. 

Ask this question, fifty years ago you could walk into a sears and buy a gun and walk right out. Not a lot of mass killings. Today, it is much more difficult to purchase a firearm legally and yet mass shootings are increasing. Now personally I tend to think it is related to the instant mass social media we have and the over abundance of mental health issues. Since I think that is the case I am good with BGCs as it is a very small inconvienence for me. 

I think part of the solution is to take a hammer to 95% of the cell phones and tablets. Kids do not go out to play anymore, they are on the internet all day. Been that way for the last 15 years or so. Kids are no longer being raised at all rather thrown a phone and left to their own. That is a serious problem. I see it with my own grandchildren and discussed it with my daughter. Kids are now getting rationed on the tablet usage. Keep in mind this is a 2 and a 4 year old. Dang, at that age I was kicking kittens and eating dirt. That right there coupled with what our kids see on the internet and movies is a big part of the problem.

So, do we ignore the mental health aspect of mass shootings? Heck no! And if we do not ignore it then we should at least get it under control on people buying guns.

I know that is an ideological issue for some but it is reality these days. Perhaps we can work back to when the guns laws were much more lax and we had less issues but I for one doubt it. Is there anyone that really believes we will see a time we do not have to have NFA rules anymore? Once a right is restricted it is rarely given back. Sad, but true. In this case there is no further restriction being imposed and it could lead to no more if we handle it right. Worth a shot in my mind. 

I guess as I have no wool and am not a sheep I am not going to be herded. By either of the extreme sides.

The background check system costs ~500 million per year, adding about $100 per firearm on average.

In 2009, one of the last years we have stats for, ~6 million background checks were performed.  The FBI denied a little over 72,000 of those background checks, and referred most of them to the ATF, where the vast majority of them are deemed to be false positives.  In the end the ATF found 62 cases that they thought were criminal violations, and the vast majority of those weren't good enough for the DOJ to prosecute. 

So we have a system that costs lots of money, where 98.8% of purchases go through with no problem, of the remain purchases only 4700 are investigated the rest are false positives.  And then when those 4,700 are looked at only 62 meet the criminal statues to be prosecuted under federal law.  62 out of 6+ million background checks! 99.99+% of purchases aren't criminal, yet we have to waste 500 million a year on the background check system, and all of the expense complying with it.

What other right protected in the Bill of Rights can the government take away from us?  Require us to ask for permission every time we want to make a purchase?  None!  And yes, I see no reason to keep the NFA at all, rifles aren't be used to commit crimes, if we repealed the NFA tomorrow, machine guns wouldn't be used to commit crimes in any great number.

There were ~11,000 people killed by firearms in 2010, the vast majority with a pistol.  Less than 2% (way less) were killed in a mass shooting...  ~12% killed by police officers (somewhere between 1100 and 1500 per year)...  These are all sad numbers but are footnotes to the real problem....  The failed war on drugs, the VAST majority of gun violence in this country is drug related, make drugs legal, and allow the market to set their price, and the rate of crime including gun violence would drop drastically.  But with all of that said, crime is down to 1950's levels even without getting rid of the war on drugs...  even with all these crazy mass shootings.  Almost half of what it was in 1992...  Starting in 1992 shall issue gun permits started to become the law of the land, and access to carry firearms by law abiding citizens increased, crime has decreased.

Most mass shootings take place in gun free zones, and the vast majority of mass shootings are stopped by a 'good guy' with a gun.  We should be making it easier for 'good guys' those law abiding citizens to have access at all times to firearms, not figure out more ways to waste tax payer money on programs that don't stop crime, only make us 'feel good' that we're doing something to stop it.

[JayC]

21 minutes ago, mikegideon said:

Correct. But we are stuck with it unless you can figure out a way to chase all the liberals out of the country. If you do, holler. I'm going with you  

Can't fix a mental illness   But, we need to be rational and point out just how much of a waste the background check system is, and why it should be ended.

[n0rlf]

Care to share the source for these numbers? Interesting statistics. 

I tend to disagree with the connection to the drug way. It does not explain all of it and none of the mass shootings. 

Either way feel free to not support the NRA if that is your choice. Makes no difference to most folks. 

[n0rlf]

1 minute ago, JayC said:

Can't fix a mental illness   But, we need to be rational and point out just how much of a waste the background check system is, and why it should be ended.

If you really think it will ever be ended or even should be I am really concerned for you. Utopia is apparently on a different planet because it darn sure has not been found here yet. 

Yes I agree it is a feel good waste but in reality it is not going anywhere. Play the cards we have. Mistakes long ago led us to where we are and it will be impossible to get back all we have lost. Like Zed said "Sucks huh?"

[Omega]

1 hour ago, n0rlf said:

If you really think it will ever be ended or even should be I am really concerned for you. Utopia is apparently on a different planet because it darn sure has not been found here yet. 

Yes I agree it is a feel good waste but in reality it is not going anywhere. Play the cards we have. Mistakes long ago led us to where we are and it will be impossible to get back all we have lost. Like Zed said "Sucks huh?"

Which is why we need to fight tooth and nail not to give away any more rights.  We give and we give but get nothing in return.  How about we "fix" the background check system by first, letting us with extensive background checks due to CCW permits, or one of several federal  security clearances to forego them. And instead of a BG system, how about a "Do not Sell" List, where a court order is required to be placed on or removed from, so once you present a proper ID, all that is required is to make sure you are not on that list.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Omega
Syntax

[Jeb48]

We have to watch that the Demogods don't sneak in amendments to the bill.

[Ugly]

We have some bureaucrats making new laws to direct other bureaucrats to update systems run by bureaucrats that have failed to keep updated in the name of bureaucracy. To allow us to exercise our rights. To not be infringed, except by the bureaucracy that is as efficient as the development of designing the space pen when we could have simply used a pencil. 

Why do we have to ask for permission with a fee every time we want to purchase a firearm? 

Bureaucracy! That's why. 

Why wasn't the Texas shooter in prison for attempted murder for cracking the skull of the kid he beat?

How about instead of providing incentives and penalties against bureaucracies, we hold individuals accountable? Both criminal behavior and the actions or lack of actions by, dare I say, bureaucrats?

 

 

[n0rlf]

And to make any gains what do we need to do first? 

We must get rid of the career politicians. Not just for the gun rights fight but for all our other rights. 

Has this country gotten so stupid as to not recognize the problem? Some say it has, I hope and think it has not. There is still a chance. You and I will not see the change. Our children might not, but hopefully our grandchildren will. 

So other than posting on the internet what do we do. Create our own political organization and use it to fight these people? Well we see how that has worked so far. These are smart people we have to deal with. Most studied community organizing and how to here the sheep. They have done nothing else. They use that to their advantage. Perhaps we can break the paradigm that is so engrained in the sheep but it will be a long hard fight. 

I am not the person to lead this for a lot of reasons, temper chief amongst them. I am not a good one to handle stupid, it is just not in me. Ignorance can be fixed by teaching, apathy through coaching, incompetence through training and skill leveling, but stupid cannot be fixed. 

So guys and gals where do we start. I will help as much as I can. 

[JayC]

11 hours ago, n0rlf said:

Care to share the source for these numbers? Interesting statistics. 

I tend to disagree with the connection to the drug way. It does not explain all of it and none of the mass shootings. 

Either way feel free to not support the NRA if that is your choice. Makes no difference to most folks. 

Which stat do you want a source for?

As I said, mass shootings are a rounding error in the total number of firearm deaths each year, trying to legislate away 100-200 deaths per year in a country of 330 million people is not a going to work. 

Most of the murders are driven by drugs, either turf related, or trying to steal to afford the drugs themselves.   Coffee costs less than $50 per kilo for good high quality coffee, yet in TN cocaine costs ~$32,000 per kilo.  If we made coffee that expensive overnight, we'd have more petty crime trying to get their coffee fix   Oh yeah and it makes the world less stable, and causes our rights to be eroded here at home.  Ask any police officer or former police officer here, how much of the crime they see day to day is driven by drugs either directly or indirectly, it's a huge problem.

I'm a lifetime member of the NRA, and every time they call asking for a donation, I hang up and give to the GOA.  I come to gun forums and complain because the only way to change the NRA is for NRA members to see the problem and demand the organization change.