Glock + RONI-SBS = NFA?

[GlockSpock]

An unnamed member here and myself are conversing as to whether or not this would be legal. He wants to purchase a "RONI" and install his Glock to make it essentially a Glock carbine. The product in question is here:

https://usa.caagearup.com/roni-m4-pistol-carbine-conversion

I argue that it wouldn't be legal without a tax stamp. He argues that it wouldn't be an SBR because of the following in bold:

An SBR is legally defined as a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16 inches, or an overall length of less than 26 inches. Pursuing that route requires registering the rifle as a Title II weapon (often referred to as an NFA weapon) under the National Firearms Act (NFA) and paying an excise tax.

But even then, if that were the case, the catalog for this product lists it as 62 cm, or 24.4 inches. So even in that regard, when closed/retracted, the overall length is less than 26 inches.

Some of the RONI kits advertise as "NO NFA REQUIREMENTS". However, the "RONI_SBS" (which appears to simply be one of their standard RONI kits + a " Skeleton Style ButtStock, or SBS), does not advertise as being "NO NFA REQUIREMENTS".

Anyone should be able to click the above image to bring it up full-size.

Thoughts anyone?

[nightrunner]

Yes the RONI kits are typically SBR conversion kits.

I haven’t looked but I’m sure they probably have a chassis kit with a pistol stabilizing brace instead of the typical stock configuration. Edit: that’s actually the first kit listed in your pic, I should have looked closer first. The stabilizing brace kit would be legal, one with a stock would not.

If it has a stock and a barrel length less than 16” it’s a SBR. You could convert it to a rifle if you had a 16” glock barrel (not sure such a thing even exists or if it would work in the RONI kit), however there is the ATF rule “ once a rifle, always a rifle. To legally convert it you would put the long barrel in first, then the stock. But once the stock is put on, you can never put the short barrel back in even if you remove the stock first. It cannot legally be a Title 1 pistol again.

 

The difference where the 26” overall length comes into play is something that was manufactured as a firearm and not a pistol or rifle such as a AR receiver or a pistol grip shotgun. Those are classified as a “firearm” and have different regulations than something that fits in an ATF category.

Edit to add: in the ATFs and the laws eyes, the keyword is OR. If it has a barrel length less than 16” it’s an SBR. OR if it has an overall length less than 26” it’s an an SBR. It doesn’t need to be both, just one condition either less than 26” OAL OR less than 16” bbl while having a stock makes an SBR. This is why bullpup rifles have to be 26” OAL or longer to avoid being SBRs even though they have 16” barrels.

Edited November 2, 2017 by nightrunner

[Smith]

Stock or "stabilizer" is the difference. The first pic in that ad is a stabilizer and not NFA. The others below have stocks and are NFA. No different than an AR pistol, AK pistol, or anything else similar.

[GlockSpock]

10 minutes ago, nightrunner said:

Yes the RONI kits are typically SBR conversion kits.

I haven’t looked but I’m sure they probably have a chassis kit with a pistol stabilizing brace instead of the typical stock configuration.

If it has a stock and a barrel length less than 16” it’s a SBR. You could convert it to a rifle if you had a 16” glock barrel (not sure such a thing even exists or if it would work in the RONI kit), however there is the ATF rule “ once a rifle, always a rifle. To legally convert it you would put the long barrel in first, then the stock. But once the stock is put on, you can never put the short barrel back in even if you remove the stock first. It cannot legally be a Title 1 pistol again.

 

The difference where the 26” overall length comes into play is something that was manufactured as a firearm and not a pistol or rifle such as a AR receiver or a pistol grip shotgun. Those are classified as a “firearm” and have different regulations than something that fits in an ATF category.

Separate but related thought process: Interpreting the word or correctly would mean that if something has either a barrel less than 16" or is less than 26", it's an SBR. So that means in this case even if the overall length was 26"+, it would still have to have a 16" barrel. However, what's interesting to note is that if something has a barrel that is 16" or greater but is less than 26" overall, it is still an SBR. I cannot think of and do not think there are likely many examples that have a 16" barrel but <26" overall length, but the possibility is out there.

Yep, this whole thing is a big no-go.

[GlockSpock]

Just now, Smith said:

Stock or "stabilizer" is the difference. The first pic in that ad is a stabilizer and not NFA. The others below have stocks and are NFA. No different than an AR pistol, AK pistol, or anything else similar.

Well, the bottom one is the "long version" and has a barrel over 16" and overall length over 26". So it isn't NFA either.

[nightrunner]

1 minute ago, CZ9MM said:

Well, the bottom one is the "long version" and has a barrel over 16" and overall length over 26". So it isn't NFA either.

I didn’t see a barrel length listed for that model, so I didn’t know.

I edited to add my first post after you quoted but the Tavor X95 in its original Israeli configuration has a 16” barrel but is less that 26” overall. It had to be lengthened for the US market to not be an SBR.

[GlockSpock]

Just now, nightrunner said:

I didn’t see a barrel length listed for that model, so I didn’t know.

I edited to add my first post after you quoted but the Tavor X95 in its original Israeli configuration has a 16” barrel but is less that 26” overall. It had to be lengthened for the US market to not be an SBR.

I seem to recall that about the X95 as well. I suppose bullpups would be about the only thing in danger of of being in the =>16" barrel but <26" overall rules.

[nightrunner]

Just now, CZ9MM said:

I seem to recall that about the X95 as well. I suppose bullpups would be about the only thing in danger of of being in the =>16" barrel but <26" overall rules.

Correct. Even folding stock variations of rifles are technically measured with the stock unfolded such as an AK or SCAR

[GlockSpock]

Just now, nightrunner said:

Correct. Even folding stock variations of rifles are technically measured with the stock unfolded such as an AK or SCAR

I ran across something to that as well. The exception seems to be if the stock is easily removed it is measured without the stock attached.

[GlockSpock]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/which-firearms-are-regulated-under-nfa

There are the rules directly from the ATF"

Which firearms are regulated under the NFA?

• (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;

So if either of those conditional statements are true (an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length), you have a firearm regulated under the NFA.

Furthermore, there is this, which makes it as plane as day:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/if-person-has-pistol-and-attachable-shoulder-stock-does-constitute-possession-nfa

If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm?

• Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser “Broomhandles” and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors’ items.

Edited November 2, 2017 by CZ9MM

[nightrunner]

Not exactly pertaining to this but the Broomhandles, Lugers, Hi Powers with stocks, etc that are C&R typically require the stock to be original and not reproduction. That varies by model though.

[Dolomite_supafly]

If it has a stock and the barrel is under 16" or it is under 26" overall length then it is a "short barrel rifle" . NFA registration required.

If it has a stock and the barrel is at least 16" and it is at least 26" overall length then it is a "rifle". 

If it has an overall length under 26" and it does not have a stock it is a "pistol". It continues to be a pistol with or without a brace or buffer tube. 

Adding a VFG to a "pistol" makes it an "any other weapon". NFA registration required.

If it has an overall length of at least 26" and does not have a stock it may also be something other than a "pistol". Why 26" is important is because you can now legally add a vertical forward grip without making a " pistol" into an "any other weapon". Basically a "firearm" is a "pistol" (no stock) that can legally have a vertical forward grip. Barrel length does not matter either with a "firearm". 

You measure with the stock extended and to the end of the muzzle. Do not include the muzzle device unless it is permanently attached. 

 Pretty sure these are the basics, my head hurts. 

[Oh Shoot]

9 hours ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

If it has a stock and the barrel is under 16" or it is under 26" overall length then it is a "short barrel rifle" . NFA registration required.

If it has a stock and the barrel is at least 16" and it is at least 26" overall length then it is a "rifle". 

If it has an overall length under 26" and it does not have a stock it is a "pistol". It continues to be a pistol with or without a brace or buffer tube. 

Adding a VFG to a "pistol" makes it an "any other weapon". NFA registration required.

If it has an overall length of at least 26" and does not have a stock it may also be something other than a "pistol". Why 26" is important is because you can now legally add a vertical forward grip without making a " pistol" into an "any other weapon". Basically a "firearm" is a "pistol" (no stock) that can legally have a vertical forward grip. Barrel length does not matter either with a "firearm". 

You measure with the stock extended and to the end of the muzzle. Do not include the muzzle device unless it is permanently attached. 

 Pretty sure these are the basics, my head hurts. 

Yup, good summation.

The "Roni-Stab" config is still a pistol.

The "Roni M4 Stock" of course is a SBR.  The additional consideration here is that once the Glock is registered as SBR, it remains SBR forever any time there is a short barrel on it, same as any other SBR receiver.

The "Longer Virsion" (sic) simply converts to a non-NFA rifle. And since the Glock of course did not begin life as a rifle, perfectly legal, and it can go back and forth between normal GCA rifle and handgun at will.

- OS

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Oh Shoot

[cpsrt]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:22 AM, CZ9MM said:

I seem to recall that about the X95 as well. I suppose bullpups would be about the only thing in danger of of being in the =>16" barrel but <26" overall rules.

Yes, my X95 has an extra inch and half of padding on the buttstock to increase the overall length.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by cpsrt
Just realized I bumped an old thread, sorry