Death Penalty

[Guest Ghostrider]

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/ap_on_re_us/death_penalty_deterrence

Anti-death penalty forces have gained momentum in the past few years, with a moratorium in Illinois, court disputes over lethal injection in more than a half-dozen states and progress toward outright abolishment in New Jersey.

The steady drumbeat of DNA exonerations — pointing out flaws in the justice system — has weighed against capital punishment. The moral opposition is loud, too, echoed in Europe and the rest of the industrialized world, where all but a few countries banned executions years ago.

...

A 2003 study he co-authored, and a 2006 study that re-examined the data, found that each execution results in five fewer homicides, and commuting a death sentence means five more homicides. "The results are robust, they don't really go away," he said. "I oppose the death penalty. But my results show that the death penalty (deters) — what am I going to do, hide them?"

...

Among the conclusions:

• Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University. (Other studies have estimated the deterred murders per execution at three, five and 14).

• The Illinois moratorium on executions in 2000 led to 150 additional homicides over four years following, according to a 2006 study by professors at the University of Houston.

• Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an Emory University professor.

[bteague2]

Ron White said it best about texas.

Other states are trying to ban the death penalty, my state is putting in an express lane.

you had a shot at life just like everyone else, and you did something really bad to be "awarded" the death penalty then you don't deserve to be alive

[Marswolf]

Being honest, I've never seen a well designed study that concluded that capital punishment deters murders.

But I don't care.

There is no reasonable and rational justification for allowing Murdering slimeballs to breathe while society has to pay for their upkeep.

[saintsfanbrian]

Mars,

I would think that the reason it doesn't "deter" murder is because it is used so seldom. When it does get applied it takes YEARS of appeals before the sentence is carried out. Wasn't Phillip Workman just recently put to death after killing a Memphis cop in the 80's?

A criminal has a right to a fair and speedy trial. To unreasonable detention. Why doesn't the populace have a right to a fair and speedy sentencing. I understand the appeals process and all, but why does it take 20 years? Also, once you have had your 3 appeals (I think there should be a limit like baseball - 3 strikes your out) you should have 30 days to get what affairs you have left in order.

Anyway......

[Guest Phantom6]

saintsfanbrian wrote:

I would think that the reason it doesn't "deter" murder is because it is used so seldom.

Most criminals either don't believe or care that they may be caught.

Actually, I tend to believe that the death penalty is too easy for these creeps. I would much rather see them in a small 4x8 cell with no T.V., computer, or air conditioning for 8 hours a day (2000-0500) with lights out for 7 of those. The walls would be painted with murals of their victim(s). The rest of the time they would be working at hard labor such as hand constructing trails in local, state or national parks, preparing road beds through remote areas, cutting timber, or given hammers and put in a pit making gravel out of boulders for the rest of their natural lives.

This hard labor should take place rain or shine 12 months out of the year. They would get 1.5 hours per day for meals and 1 hour per day (this would be included in their 8 hours of cell time) to shower, shave and read tightly controled reading material. The other 13.5 hours a day would be spent at hard labor. They would recieve basic (sustanance level) medical care only and would be listed as DNR's in the event of a medical emergency. They would get one half hour per week for religeous activities and family only visitation for 1 hour per month. If they should attempt to escape then they should loose one of their privledges such as family visitation, the one hour of light in their cell , controled reading material, etc.

[molonlabetn]

saintsfanbrian wrote:

Most criminals either don't believe or care that they may be caught.

Actually, I tend to believe that the death penalty is too easy for these creeps. I would much rather see them in a small 4x8 cell with no T.V., computer, or air conditioning for 8 hours a day (2000-0500) with lights out for 7 of those. The walls would be painted with murals of their victim(s). The rest of the time they would be working at hard labor such as hand constructing trails in local, state or national parks, preparing road beds through remote areas, cutting timber, or given hammers and put in a pit making gravel out of boulders for the rest of their natural lives.

This hard labor should take place rain or shine 12 months out of the year. They would get 1.5 hours per day for meals and 1 hour per day (this would be included in their 8 hours of cell time) to shower, shave and read tightly controled reading material. The other 13.5 hours a day would be spent at hard labor. They would recieve basic (sustanance level) medical care only and would be listed as DNR's in the event of a medical emergency. They would get one half hour per week for religeous activities and family only visitation for 1 hour per month. If they should attempt to escape then they should loose one of their privledges such as family visitation, the one hour of light in their cell , controled reading material, etc.

I like the way you think...

Also, the turnaround for sentancing should be accelerated... no more of this 10 & 20 year appeals process B.S. that goes against the grain of one important thing this country was founded on. Swift and appropriate justice.

I would rejoice if the day ever dawned when a criminal was very uncertain of surviving the attempt to perpetrate violence, and had the above to look forward to, if he was that lucky.

[Guest Len]

Well said, Phantom. I agree, except I would provide more time for religion (1hr/week) and family (2 hrs/month.) The value of religion and visitation for keeping prisoners calm and controllable should not be taken for granted.

I also personally agree that the state should not be in the business of killing, so I am fully opposed to capital punishment. Phantom's option would cost less money, be of more value to society and would silence the moral critics (of whom I am one.) The religion I was raised in (Catholic) was quite specific about killings: no abortion, no capital punishment, no murder. While I disagree with a great many of Catholicism's teachings, I could easily live in a world where none of these three things had reason to occur.

saintsfanbrian wrote:

Most criminals either don't believe or care that they may be caught.

Actually, I tend to believe that the death penalty is too easy for these creeps. I would much rather see them in a small 4x8 cell with no T.V., computer, or air conditioning for 8 hours a day (2000-0500) with lights out for 7 of those. The walls would be painted with murals of their victim(s). The rest of the time they would be working at hard labor such as hand constructing trails in local, state or national parks, preparing road beds through remote areas, cutting timber, or given hammers and put in a pit making gravel out of boulders for the rest of their natural lives.

This hard labor should take place rain or shine 12 months out of the year. They would get 1.5 hours per day for meals and 1 hour per day (this would be included in their 8 hours of cell time) to shower, shave and read tightly controled reading material. The other 13.5 hours a day would be spent at hard labor. They would recieve basic (sustanance level) medical care only and would be listed as DNR's in the event of a medical emergency. They would get one half hour per week for religeous activities and family only visitation for 1 hour per month. If they should attempt to escape then they should loose one of their privledges such as family visitation, the one hour of light in their cell , controled reading material, etc.

[Guest Old Chief]

The old pirates said that dead men tell no tales which was true then and today as well. In addition to the afore mentioned truism "Publically executed criminals commit no more crimes." We need to get on with the program of swift and sure execution for criminal acts. Scripture tells us that the land can not be cleansed of murdered blood but by the blood of the one that shed it.

[Marswolf]

We could get into a lot of religious posts about one person's beliefs as opposed to another's, but that wouldn't be very productive.

Might I suggest we keep this discussion on a reasoned level as opposed to just stating our beliefs or quoting religious text of our choosing?

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

Actually I am of the belief that capital punishment, if used properly, is like corporal punishment used in school (or at least used to be). Its only actually used a couple times, when there is no doubt the recipient deserves it, but is a very useful deterrent. I think executions should be public. Not out some gore lust, but to make a statement to criminals.

IN OUR CURRENT SYSTEM, I don't it is effective since it takes like 20 years, is behind closed doors (which makes the deterrent factor not as effective), and there are lots of controversial cases. One BS artist murderer will walk on a technicality and later some innocent guy gets the needle. Rare? Yes. I think it should be instituted, but only applied in a "that sick freak is guilty!!" scenario, not just when "beyond a reasonable doubt"

[Marswolf]

It seems to me that we could set up a system that would eliminate the appeals in some cases and would act as a deterrent.

Suppose we let a jury come back with a verdict of guilty with no doubt and deserving of the death penalty. This would just be for those cases where no one else could possibly have done the crime. Lots of witnesses, absolute DNA evidence. That sort of situation. Then if the judge agrees, the defendant is led out of the courtroom and immediately executed. None of this technicality stuff. Give him a speedy trial, find him guilty and execute him.

We had a trial here recently that would apply. The BG said he wanted to kill a cop. So he got into a domestic dispute with his under age pregnant girlfriend at her folk's place and when the cops came, he point blank shot one of the officers in the head, killing him. Lots of witnesses to the shooting as well as his earlier pronouncement. He was guilty beyond a doubt. He is now on death row waiting for appeals or judge Nixon to commute the sentence. Why not just take scum like this out and eliminate them? Save the taxpayers a few bucks and eliminate any possibility of his escape and further criminal activity.

[saintsfanbrian]

Let's see, he wanted to kill a cop was the statement he made and people heard this yet when the police were called they were not forwarned? Disgusting, and since I am to assume this was in TN, why didn't one of the family members get their gun and take care of this little punk before or after he shot the police officer.

Seriously, though, this is definitely a case where the punishment should be swift.

[Marswolf]

This was in Bristol, TN.

"I shot the f------ cop. I shot him in the face. There’s no need to go in there. He’s dead..."

Bristol Tennessee Cop Killer gets death

Compiled by Lewis Loflin

Updated April 11, 2007. Cop-killer Nikolaus Johnson, age 28, appeared before Sullivan County Judge Jerry Beck in December 8, 2005. Over two and a half years later, his murder trial is set to begin with jury selection in April 2007. The fun started almost from the first minute as Johnson accused the Sullivan county sheriff's deputies of brutality. Sheriff Wayne Anderson strongly denied this. Johnson also tried to fire his attorney for among other things asking for a mental evaluation of him, claiming they won't listen to his side of the story, won't visit him in jail, or take his phone calls. Judge Jerry Beck wasn't having any part of it. Johnson has been so disruptive they've threatened to gag him.

Johnson is accused of ambushing Bristol, Tennessee police officer Mark Vance in November 2004 shooting him in the face with a .357 magnum. Vance was responding to a domestic disturbance call over Johnson getting his 17 (at the time) year-old girlfriend pregnant. (It's reported she had triplets.) Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty.

To quote a local news editorial; "Johnson’s case has been set for trial two previous times – in November 2005 and July 2006. His lawyers asked to delay the trial both times so that Johnson could receive mental evaluations. The defense is expected to contend that Johnson was schizophrenic at the time of the shooting...Vance, 30, was shot at point-blank range in the head as he climbed the stairs...Johnson, a former gang member and convicted felon, was caught on a police cruiser audiotape admitting that he killed Vance..."

and

http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=3754860

Killer of Bristol officer sentenced to death

Published 04/28/2007 By DEE GOODIN

BLOUNTVILLE - Two years and five months after he shot a Bristol police officer in the face with a .357-caliber Magnum handgun, Nikolaus L. Johnson, 28, of Bristol, Va., was sentenced to death on Friday.

Mark Vance, 30, a full-time officer with the Bristol Police Department for only 18 months, was killed within seconds of entering a residence on a domestic call on Nov. 27, 2004, Thanksgiving weekend.

While the jury took little more than an hour and a half, including lunch, to find Johnson guilty of first-degree murder on Tuesday, deliberations during the sentencing phase of the trial took much longer.

The jury had three options: life in prison, life in prison without parole, or death.

The jury returned its verdict at 4:50 p.m. Friday, but after examining the paperwork Circuit Judge Jerry Beck directed them to write the verdict in accordance with statutory requirements and sent them back to the jury room.

By 6 p.m., jurors were back in the courtroom.

They again said Johnson's previous conviction on malicious wounding and the fact he had killed a law enforcement officer who was performing his duties outweighed all of the favorable testimony his family and friends had given on Thursday.

Vance was responding to a domestic call involving a man threatening a woman with a gun on Belmont Avenue when he was killed. According to testimony, Johnson said that if he were going back to prison it would be for murder, not statutory rape. He also said he would kill the first person to enter the home, whether it be Walter Mitchell, father of Britney Mitchell who gave birth to Johnson's triplet daughters, or a police officer.

According to testimony, Johnson became enraged after the girl told him she had not terminated her pregnancy as she had led him to believe.

After court was dismissed on Friday, Bristol Police Chief Blaine Wade said, "We're satisfied with the verdict. But it's sad it won't bring Mark back."

The young officer's mother, brother and several friends were in court throughout the trial's three-week duration. Vance's daughter was 6 when her father died.

"From what we see as a lack of remorse, it was the only sentence the man could receive. It's a tragedy for both the Vance and Johnson families," Wade said.

Asked to comment about the verdict, Jim Bowman, Johnson's court-appointed attorney along with Stacy Street, said, "Conscientious citizens made a conscientious decision. But it's a shame we continue to believe that violence is the answer to violence."

BTW, Johnson's cousin killed a police dog during a robbery a couple of years before this incident. Great family.

[saintsfanbrian]

Where is Carousel (Logan's Run) when you need it.

A speedy trial, with a speedy punishment. That is what will change this country. Get rid of the prison "hotel" system where they get meals, TV, AC in the summer and heat in the winter. Criminals have more rights than non criminals and it is disgusting. Bring back the Penal Farms where they have to work or go hungry. Then and only then will we possibly have a reduction in crime.

Stop putting petty users in jail, put the big time dealers in there. I am not for decriminalizing drugs but on some days, I do see how the taxes could help this country.

If we did decriminalize them and taxed them on par with cigarettes/tobacco and gas, we could probably do away with the income tax.

Just my opinions though.

[molonlabetn]

Yes, all good points.

Many argue the potential increased cost of housing more inmates, if enforcement were made more strict... But, in reality, we could certainly lower the cost per-inmate by removing their 'luxuries', such as cable, air-conditioning... and put them on a more basic diet and artificial-light/electricity ration.

Society pays for these people, whether they are behind bars or on the street... So, lets get them off the street, and dictate a more realistic basic standard of living to them.

As to capital punishment, there are an overwhelming number of convicted murderers, rapists, terrorists, etc... who are indisputably guilty of their offenses, and a danger to those around them no matter where we keep them because they have proven to be habitual monsters without remorse or desire to reform... There is no reason to keep them alive.

[dkd83]

I used to believe firmly in the death penalty as a PUNISHMENT. Now I am of the opinion that we can do away with captal punishment if we implement a system wherein manadatory sentencing, including life imprisonment, were strictly adhered to. Some version of Phantom's system would suit me just fine, though Cool Hand Luke did seem to have quite a lot of fun.

The only valid reason I can find for execution is to INSURE WITH NO DOUBT that that murderer, rapist, kidnapper, or child molestor never repeats their heinous crime. Life imprisonment could also accomplish this so now I am less adamant about the death penalty.

[Marswolf]

I just see no justification for forcing taxpayers to keep people in prison for life who can never be allowed to rejoin society. To me, that is immoral.

If I'm going to eliminate a penalty, it will be life imprisonment. Commute all of those sentences to death and eliminate some expenses.

[saintsfanbrian]

I personally don't agree with the tax payers having to pay for ANYONE being in jail. Penal farms, work "furloughs" etc. should keep prisons open. Granted they should have to bid out jobs at fair prices and prisoners should be "paid" a fair wage, but out of those wages, expenses should come.

Let's see for expenses we have:

1. Rent / utilities .40 of every dollar

2. Food .15 of every dollar.

3. Taxes .15 of every dollar

4. "Restitution" - .20 of every dollar

5. Commissary account or savings - .10 of every dollar

That should be plenty. Oh, and unless you are infirmed - EVERYONE works.

There are plenty of "skilled" workers in the prison system. We should take advantage of this. Plenty of pot holes to be filled, Roadways cleaned, parks to be maintained, license plates to be manufactured etc. Heck, I bet some farmers would pay the prisons to have the prisoners out there picking cotton or fruit or what have you.

[molonlabetn]

There are plenty of "skilled" workers in the prison system. We should take advantage of this. Plenty of pot holes to be filled, Roadways cleaned, parks to be maintained, license plates to be manufactured etc. Heck, I bet some farmers would pay the prisons to have the prisoners out there picking cotton or fruit or what have you.

Uh oh... brian, I think you may have just come up with the solution for eliminating the problem of illegal immigration for the purpose of 'doing the jobs Americans just won't do'

We don't need a 'guest worker' program! We need an 'inmate worker' program!

[saintsfanbrian]

Hey, I have been prophecizing this since I realized that the government is not really out to "help" us.

[Mike.357]

You all make a lot of valid points, valid in both directions.

For me I am for the death penalty. I would like to see the "no doubt of guilt" and a swift carrying out of sentence. In areas of lack of the " No doubt" it is prudent to look further.

If found guilty with no doubt execution should take place within minutes.

There was a movie I saw years ago about a murderer in the Soviet Union. He was guilty beyond all doubt, and when tried found guilty. As he was taken back to his holding cell to await sentencing the door opens he walks into the cell and you see a arm come up with cocked revolver and a shot is put into the base of his head, end of game, thanks for playing.

I think some of this would be a good deterrent in our country.

[Guest jackdog]

I'm in favor of the death penalty, But the appeals process should be a lot more limited. Waiting 12 + years to to finish the procedure is totally uncalled for.

[DaveTN]

I can’t support the death penalty because of religious convictions. I could not be on a jury where the death penalty is an option for that reason.

But also…

It costs more to kill a prisoner than keep him. Look at all the money we (the tax payers) paid for Coe’s defense.

I think death is too easy. If I knew I would never get out I would take death over life in prison. If they had put Coe in GenPop he would have suffered for what he did.

How many innocent people being executed is acceptable?

[Marswolf]

It costs more to kill a prisoner than keep him.

It doesn't have to be that way.

[shaftbass]

Im all for the death penalty for people who deserve it, but as was said in the topic, you can't overlook the people who have been wrongfully convicted and later exhonorated.

Imagine if that person were you.