3 teams sit out the anthem

[btq96r]

1 hour ago, Hozzie said:

Have there been some bad things happen, sure.  Is it the norm, not even close.  

So, what is the acceptable variance of negative experiences?  I'd argue we strive for a variance of 0%, knowing as human beings we'll fall short, and taking notice when we have systemic problems...which I think we do. 

Those protesting feel that the variance is worse in their field of view than it is for you or I, and are raising awareness the only way that can get our attention short of violence it seems.  If they don't feel America is treating them equally enough for them to identify with the flag and the anthem as I do, my first instinct is to find out what their grievance is, not attack their protest.

 

[Omega]

34 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I get the sentiment. 

But then I find it hard to sync up with the actions. The Ravens took a knee as a team before the anthem today and then stood as one for the anthem. The fans still drowned out the anthem with their booing. They booed their own players against playing against the Steelers.

I’m sorry. I get the sentiment. I really do. But forced patriotism is not patriotism. We have a different word for that. And it’s one that our veterans have fought against. 

We’re bigger than this as a country - or should be. America should be large enough to tolerate dissent and even encourage it. Maybe in doing so we actually create a better version of ourselves.

 

BTW, you’re welcome to come help me rip out my flower beds anytime. Lord knows they need some help. My HOA might in fact welcome it

At this point, it's beyond the initial issue.  Now, it's them trying to get out of a situation they should not of gotten into in the first place. 

 

7 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

My thoughts above have been expressed more eloquently than I can put them a long time ago.  In 1943 - during the worst days of WWII.  A bunch of Jehovahs Witnesses filed suit after their children were expelled from school for refusing to say the pledge of allegiance citing religious objections.  The case went to the Supreme Court, and Justice Robert Jackson wrote the following in the majority opinion:

In a concurring opinion, two other justices who had changed their opinion following an earlier case wrote the following:

Mind you - the NFL is a private enterprise.  The Bill of Rights doesn't necessarily apply here - and shouldn't.  Team owners are free to do what they will and fans are welcome to respond accordingly. I expect the players union will weigh in at some point when they decide it's too costly to do otherwise. Protests are rarely comfortable, I guess.

But, if we're going to have this big weekly display of civil religion, you should kind of expect this stuff.

Just don't get it, it's not about religion, or forcing someone to stand, salute or whatever.  It's about the deliberate and calculated show of disrespect for the symbols of our nation.  Yes, they have the right to not stand, have the right to burn, piss on or otherwise mutilate the flag, but I have the same right to not give a turd about why they are doing it.

[Hozzie]

6 minutes ago, btq96r said:

So, what is the acceptable variance of negative experiences?  I'd argue we strive for a variance of 0%, knowing as human beings we'll fall short, and taking notice when we have systemic problems...which I think we do. 

Those protesting feel that the variance is worse in their field of view than it is for you or I, and are raising awareness the only way that can get our attention short of violence it seems.  If they don't feel America is treating them equally enough for them to identify with the flag and the anthem as I do, my first instinct is to find out what their grievance is, not attack their protest.

 

I don't think I am attacking their protest.  They certainly have the right to protest, no issue there.  I do have an issue with the how and where they are doing it.  To the content of the grievance itself, you are correct, I do not agree with it or believe that it is a systemic problem, more specifically that they are somehow targeted specifically for their race in today's society as a whole.

There are ####ty people of all colors who make bad decisions and blame it on everyone but themselves.  I am not a police officer, but I work with officers from around the world and I can tell you that the problem does not lie within law enforcement.  It lies within the people who fail to take responsibility for their own actions.  These are systemic problems which are easy to identify in many classes and groups of people, not just black communities.   You don't have to go far to find the opiod issue in most communities.  I have the same feelings about it.  Your poor decisions do not make me responsible for your situation in life and I feel no responsibility socially or financially to bail these people out of hole they dug.

 

[Scorpion Equalizer]

Colin Kaepernick's protest of minority oppression may have had more credibility if he had not highjacked it with his display of Marxism. He is simply a commie who hates our country and values. His commie advisers and his stupidity cost him millions by thinking he could opt out of his contract, and that some other owner would sign him to bigger contract after his protest antics stirred up the ire of patriotic fans. An NFL owner would have to be stupid to sign him to an NFL contract. Like others have said, your actions have consequences, and I believe these protests will have very long term detrimental effects to the NFL.  I'm another ex-fan that will not support or watch the NFL any more.

APB for Colin Kaepernick.....

[john455]

7 hours ago, Bob T said:

They are starting a dialog between people about a difficult subject, just like we are doing in this thread.

I disagree, no one is having a dialog about a difficult subject, they are pissed as hell about a clear cut show of disrespect to our flag and national anthem. I don't care how many of them say it's not a show of disrespect that it BS, the same as Shannon Sharpe saying the flag is just a racist piece of cloth nobody would fight for.

[analog_kidd]

CK got this whole movement started, and I feel like he went about it all wrong. He poofed up his hair and started wearing Che shirts and "Pig" socks, and came off looking like a wild-eyed, raving lunatic. His subsequent, nearly incoherent, interviews made him look like he was championing a cause he was clueless about.

That set the stage for me, and every single one of these current protests just screams "I'm with Colin". 

Besides, if I go to a game, I'm paying to get the whole "Ballgame Experience". That means, I'm want to have a couple expensive beers, maybe a hot-dog or peanuts, I want to root for my team and have a sense of pride for them. It also means I want to stand for and sing the Anthem, and get a lump in my throat. I don't want to see some jerkwad disrespecting the flag, especially one that I just helped pay his salary. It makes that lump turn to steam around my collar. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, making the beer and dog taste bad, and I lose my pride in the team. It ruins the whole "experience" for me.

Once you have done that to me, I don't care what your issue is. You have lost every bit of sympathy you may have ever gotten.

Case in point: I love the Titans, and I enjoy watching them. Delanie Walker had to mouth off last week (quote: "And the fans that don't want to come to the game? I mean. OK. Bye, If you feel that's something - we're disrespecting you, don't come to the game."), so what did I do? I did not watch the game. He soured me on the Titans. He disrespects my flag, and then disrespects me because I don't 100% accept his beliefs... I want nothing to do with him or his team. So, yeah, "OK, bye". And as much as a 14 to 57 smackdown loss would have made me sad a week or two ago, this week my feeling is "serves you right".

[Bob T]

4 hours ago, john455 said:

I disagree, no one is having a dialog about a difficult subject, they are pissed as hell about a clear cut show of disrespect to our flag and national anthem. I don't care how many of them say it's not a show of disrespect that it BS, the same as Shannon Sharpe saying the flag is just a racist piece of cloth nobody would fight for.

Actually many of us are. We are talking about the protest, the flag, racism, and what we can do to make this county better. I've discussed these things with friends, family, neighbors, strangers, and on various message boards. Many of these folks are fellow vets. We don't all agree, just like here, but we are talking about it. And that is a good thing.

Sure, there are plenty of folks who have their undies bunched up about the method of protest, but once you get past that, and discuss the reason for the protests, the dialog begins. 

John, even you are discussing this right here in this thread.

[Omega]

57 minutes ago, Bob T said:

Actually many of us are. We are talking about the protest, the flag, racism, and what we can do to make this county better. I've discussed these things with friends, family, neighbors, strangers, and on various message boards. Many of these folks are fellow vets. We don't all agree, just like here, but we are talking about it. And that is a good thing.

Sure, there are plenty of folks who have their undies bunched up about the method of protest, but once you get past that, and discuss the reason for the protests, the dialog begins. 

John, even you are discussing this right here in this thread.

You may be right in saying we are discussing it, but not in a meaningful way.  I find it hard, nay, impossible to support any cause that begins by spitting in my face.

[leroy]

FYI...

I'm beginning to notice some interesting comments about "...the right to freedom of expression..." ... I want ta remind ya'll that the "Employment Contract" has been ruled to supersede the employee's right to "...express his feelings..." many times... Said another way; "...If you are under contract to an employer who has specific rules concerning your conduct, your employer is within his right to fire you if you violate them..."; and they regularly do... This is not an unusual situation in most any professional occupation, from sports, to engineering, to consulting, etc, etc... Ya get the picture...

I'll guarantee you that the NFL (...and all other entities like them, that depend on public perceptions of them...) have 'em... Don't be dragged off into the weeds by those who say, in effect, "...You have unlimited right of expression no matter the platform or time..."... You don't if you are employed by someone that ain't you... I worked many a year for a company i wont name that had that clause in their employment contract... It was an utility company...

leroy...

Edited October 2, 2017 by leroy

[Omega]

10 minutes ago, leroy said:

FYI...

I'm beginning to notice some interesting comments about "...the right to freedom of expression..." ... I want ta remind ya'll that the "Employment Contract" has been ruled to supersede the employee's right to "...express his feelings..." many times... Said another way; "...If you are under contract to an employer who has specific rules concerning your conduct, your employer is within his right to fire you if you violate them..."; and they regularly do... This is not an unusual situation in most any professional occupation, from sports, to engineering, to consulting, etc, etc... Ya get the picture...

I'll guarantee you that the NFL (...and all other entities like them, that depend on public perceptions of them...) have 'em... Don't be dragged off into the weeds by those who say, in effect, "...You have unlimited right of expression no matter the platform or time..."... You don't if you are employed by someone that ain't you... I worked many a year for a company i wont name that had that clause in their employment contract... It was an utility company...

leroy...

The problem is that the NFL, Owners, and Couches/staff are part of the problem.  The NFL has a rule about standing for the Anthem, but have yet to fine anyone, even when it was just one or two doing it.  But they have fined some for wearing shoes of the wrong color in support of things like breast cancer.

[n0rlf]

1 hour ago, Bob T said:

Actually many of us are. We are talking about the protest, the flag, racism, and what we can do to make this county better. I've discussed these things with friends, family, neighbors, strangers, and on various message boards. Many of these folks are fellow vets. We don't all agree, just like here, but we are talking about it. And that is a good thing.

Sure, there are plenty of folks who have their undies bunched up about the method of protest, but once you get past that, and discuss the reason for the protests, the dialog begins. 

John, even you are discussing this right here in this thread.

The problem is not the protest or even so much how they are protesting. It is about the fact that different parties are seeing things in different ways. Some are protesting what they call the improper treatment of a segment of society. Others are seeing it as thugs protesting they got caught basically.

So the bigger discussion should not be so much about race rather about how to act and behave in a polite society. How to obey the laws and be responsible for one's self.

A lot of people have gotten tired of having that discussion and being called racist when they start to have it. The race card is nothing more than a distraction used by one side to validate how some behave. If you try and start any conversation around the issues that is there first and only topic. Really, well let's discuss the individual instances that they are protesting. Break each down and go from there. I am willing to bet most folks regardless of color can agree on facts if looked at in a non passionate manner and objectively.

I would really like to think most Americans can do that. Problem is that on both sides there are some that just want to have hate and discontent. Some based on race, some on their economic standing in society, some on gender, some on their chosen lifestyles. Everyone seems to get offended by everything these days and the big part of society that is now saying tough! That just does not cut it anymore, we are going to act and communicate as adults not spoiled feelings hurt 4 year olds is really pushing things into the light.

It is going to have to get worse before it gets better as both sides will have to open their eyes and minds and shut their mouths long enough to see things from all perspectives. To date most have proven themselves incapable of that.

[Bob T]

5 minutes ago, n0rlf said:

The problem is not the protest or even so much how they are protesting. It is about the fact that different parties are seeing things in different ways. Some are protesting what they call the improper treatment of a segment of society. Others are seeing it as thugs protesting they got caught basically.

So the bigger discussion should not be so much about race rather about how to act and behave in a polite society. How to obey the laws and be responsible for one's self.

A lot of people have gotten tired of having that discussion and being called racist when they start to have it. The race card is nothing more than a distraction used by one side to validate how some behave. If you try and start any conversation around the issues that is there first and only topic. Really, well let's discuss the individual instances that they are protesting. Break each down and go from there. I am willing to bet most folks regardless of color can agree on facts if looked at in a non passionate manner and objectively.

I would really like to think most Americans can do that. Problem is that on both sides there are some that just want to have hate and discontent. Some based on race, some on their economic standing in society, some on gender, some on their chosen lifestyles. Everyone seems to get offended by everything these days and the big part of society that is now saying tough! That just does not cut it anymore, we are going to act and communicate as adults not spoiled feelings hurt 4 year olds is really pushing things into the light.

It is going to have to get worse before it gets better as both sides will have to open their eyes and minds and shut their mouths long enough to see things from all perspectives. To date most have proven themselves incapable of that.

But you make my point. What you say my be true, but it is also the start of a dialog that can be built on.

[leroy]

1 minute ago, Omega said:

The problem is that the NFL, Owners, and Couches/staff are part of the problem.  The NFL has a rule about standing for the Anthem, but have yet to fine anyone, even when it was just one or two doing it.  But they have fined some for wearing shoes of the wrong color in support of things like breast cancer.

I understand what ya are sayin... My point is that they can exercise this option if they want.. Notice the recent turn of events with some of the teams... "...We will stand for the anthem"... I'll guarantee ya that they were told that the team had the option to boot them for cause, and that it would hold up in court...

I'm in no way defending the NFL, it's players, owners, and those who enable them... I'm pointing out that some here on this forum seem to believe that you have "...unlimited, uninhibited right to say what you want or otherwise express your self as you see fit, and whereever you see fit to do so..."... It aint so, unless you are self-employed..

As DaveTN said so wisely the other day:..."...Your rights are well intact and established..."... Just remember that there can be consequences from acting on them...

leroy

[Omega]

Just now, leroy said:

I understand what ya are sayin... My point is that they can exercise this option if they want.. Notice the recent turn of events with some of the teams... "...We will stand for the anthem"... I'll guarantee ya that they were told that the team had the option to boot them for cause, and that it would hold up in court...

I'm in no way defending the NFL, it's players, owners, and those who enable them... I'm pointing out that some here on this forum seem to believe that you have "...unlimited, uninhibited right to say what you want or otherwise express your self as you see fit, and whereever you see fit to do so..."... It aint so, unless you are self-employed..

As DaveTN said so wisely the other day:..."...Your rights are well intact and established..."... Just remember that there can be consequences from acting on them...

leroy

I think it's been well established that you do have the Right, but there will be consequences. 

[n0rlf]

2 minutes ago, Bob T said:

But you make my point. What you say my be true, but it is also the start of a dialog that can be built on.

Yes it is. By all means start the dialog but be clear it is a dialog and a conversation. We are not going to just sit and listen to rants about racism from either side though as we have seen where that goes.

 Discuss facts and solutions yes, but not the distraction points that some want to try. It is time for a dialog and that dialog has to be productive. Productive means we have to get level heads to discuss the facts and the best solutions for identified problems.

 

[RED333]

10 hours ago, Bob T said:

Actually many of us are. We are talking about the protest, the flag, racism, and what we can do to make this county better. I've discussed these things with friends, family, neighbors, strangers, and on various message boards. Many of these folks are fellow vets. We don't all agree, just like here, but we are talking about it. And that is a good thing.

Sure, there are plenty of folks who have their undies bunched up about the method of protest, but once you get past that, and discuss the reason for the protests, the dialog begins. 

John, even you are discussing this right here in this thread.

 I was not gona wade into this till I read this.

So just what is the reason, police killing blacks? Police kill more whites than blacks, so there is a nonstarter. So just what is the reason for disrespecting MY FLAG AND MY COUNTRY!!! I am an ex Sailor, Sub Service. I was raised to give respect till it is shown that non was deserved. These lame pukes (nfl and their players) will not get my respect, NO WAY, NO HOW!!!

No I am not discussing this with you, I am telling you how I am dealing with this. You deal with it as you want, tell the nfl that it is OK to protest and disrespect the Country and the Flag. Have that talk with them.

[Chucktshoes]

10 minutes ago, RED333 said:

 Police kill more whites than blacks, so there is a nonstarter. 

This is not exactly correct. In raw numbers, yes, police do kill more whites than blacks but whites are four  times the population of blacks. When you look at the per capita rates, black folks make up 13% of the population and are 26% of the number of folks killed by police. When you compare the percentage of folks killed by police to their percentage of the population, blacks are killed by police at a rate 2.5 times that of white folks. 

 

And for the record, nobody is disrespecting the flag or the country, they are just asking the country to stand up for them before they stand up for it. Until then they will kneel and some like me will pray while kneeling that this country begins to actually live up to the ideals it purports to hold dear. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Chucktshoes

[Omega]

13 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

This is not exactly correct. In raw numbers, yes, police do kill more whites than blacks but whites are four  times the population of blacks. When you look at the per capita rates, black folks make up 13% of the population and are 26% of the number of folks killed by police. When you compare the percentage of folks killed by police to their percentage of the population, blacks are killed by police at a rate 2.5 times that of white folks. 

 

And for the record, nobody is disrespecting the flag or the country, they are just asking the country to stand up for them before they stand up for it. Until then they will kneel and some like me will pray while kneeling that this country begins to actually live up to the ideals it purports to hold dear. 

Ahh, a kneeler...gotcha.

Just wanted to ask, blacks make up what percentage of crime stats??  

[leroy]

I've read with interest and not a little bit of chortling about the "dialogue" thing RE:  "Black Oppression"... I'm sorry, i ain't buyin this one, and here's why:

1.   We elected a black president not once, but twice... He proved to be the worst president since Civil War Reconstruction, and presided over one of the most onerous, one sided political establishments in our country's history.  There was no "Resistance" or Civil Disobedience or ANTIBARAK insurgency...

2... We had a "Black Separatist Zealot"as Attorney General under his administration... Stridently "anti everybody" but people of color, and crooked... He is still not in jail, nor will anyone touch him... We endured him, and the spineless political class let him run wild...

3... These two Creteons together emboldened the "Poor Put Upon People of Color Class", the "Thug Class", and their handlers... They were busy runnin wild at places like Fegruson... Ya see it everywhere... Welcome to "BLM" and ANTIFADA...

4... This "emboldenment of the thug class has resulted in a bunch of em gettin shot... It's pretty simple, really... Comply with police requests, and ya generally don't get shot... Fight em, ignore em, try to run over em, or try to run away from em... Get shot... Pretty simple, i think...

5... The current atmosphere in this country is as polarized now as ive ever seen it, and im 72 years old... There was nothing close to this during Viet Nam, and it was very hot then... This whole thing is nothin more than another front in the "Resistance to Trump", which is nothin more than code words for "We're not accepting a duly elected official, nor those who voted for him (..or her..)... It's a demand for mob rule, pure and simple...

The end of this little soliloquy; ya ain't gonna get much "dialog" in an atmosphere such as the one we are experiencing now... The "Anti" bunch doesn't want a dialogue; and those who see things the other way are gettin tired of being put upon... This this will have to be won one way or the other... If not at the ballot box, and these idiots marginalized politically; it will be done with the cartridge box... Some of em seem to want that pretty badly...

watchin leroy...

[Hozzie]

29 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

This is not exactly correct. In raw numbers, yes, police do kill more whites than blacks but whites are four  times the population of blacks. When you look at the per capita rates, black folks make up 13% of the population and are 26% of the number of folks killed by police. When you compare the percentage of folks killed by police to their percentage of the population, blacks are killed by police at a rate 2.5 times that of white folks. 

 

And for the record, nobody is disrespecting the flag or the country, they are just asking the country to stand up for them before they stand up for it. Until then they will kneel and some like me will pray while kneeling that this country begins to actually live up to the ideals it purports to hold dear. 

Black males are also only 6% if the population, but committ ~50% of all murders.  Maybe there is good reason they are 2.5 times more likely per capita to be shot.

[john455]

37 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

And for the record, nobody is disrespecting the flag or the country, they are just asking the country to stand up for them before they stand up for it. Until then they will kneel and some like me will pray while kneeling that this country begins to actually live up to the ideals it purports to hold dear.

That is total and complete BS in the 10th degree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Disrespecting OUR Country and Flag IS the whole point. 99% of them are doing it because they are butt hurt over Trumps comment not 1 dang bit for any real protest.

[n0rlf]

Yeah statistics are funny that way. They can be meant to show anything. 

In the end it comes down to not having contact with cops and no one can argue that will lessen your chance of getting shot by one. 

Pretty simple axiom for it that is still true to this day, play stupid games and you will win stupid prizes. 

And yes we all know that there are some legitimate cases that are bad cops. Fire them charge them and do away with the unions as a first step. 

Both sides deserve the same after all fair and equal treatment. Anything less is unacceptable. 

[Chucktshoes]

31 minutes ago, john455 said:

That is total and complete BS in the 10th degree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Disrespecting OUR Country and Flag IS the whole point. 99% of them are doing it because they are butt hurt over Trumps comment not 1 dang bit for any real protest.

Oh, thanks for letting me know that. I wasn't aware that you had mind reading powers and were intimately familiar with the thoughts of multiple dozen NFL players and the millions of other folks who support them. Including me. I really appreciate you telling me how I feel about all of this.

[MacGyver]

A lot of people blame protest movements for their lack of "cause" or unified voice.  It's nothing new - reread King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail and you'll find ministers black and white at the time accusing him of the same.

With that in mind, it's worth reading the Philadelphia Eagles' Malcom Jenkins in the Washington Post yesterday: 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-protesting-nfl-players-like-me-want-to-do-next/2017/09/30/507fc4b0-a513-11e7-b14f-f41773cd5a14_story.html?utm_term=.5a9301eab813

[RED333]

1 hour ago, Chucktshoes said:

And for the record, nobody is disrespecting the flag or the country,

Bravo Foxtrot Sierra, I say if you do not stand for the Flag and the Country you will fall for anything. This protest is a good example and some have fallen for it.