3 teams sit out the anthem

[btq96r]

21 hours ago, jgradyc said:

Somehow, I think the US Army will get the message without your call. 

Why?  The pentagon loves the NFL so much they were paying for the pomp and "salute to the troops" during the games out of the recruiting budgets.  I think it was little more than a way to create patriotism through propaganda, but the military liked it well enough.  It seems to have worked judging by the outrage at a perceived slight against the troops and their sacrifices.

[Omega]

5 minutes ago, btq96r said:

Why?  The pentagon loves the NFL so much they were paying for the pomp and "salute to the troops" during the games out of the recruiting budgets.  I think it was little more than a way to create patriotism through propaganda, but the military liked it well enough.  It seems to have worked judging by the outrage at a perceived slight against the troops and their sacrifices.

Yes, but I highly doubt the partnership continues as before.  Of course, most miss the fact that they must use propaganda to recruit in today's "snowflake" environment. 

[btq96r]

Just now, Omega said:

Yes, but I highly doubt the partnership continues as before.  Of course, most miss the fact that they must use propaganda to recruit in today's "snowflake" environment. 

I think it only changes or changed (not sure if it's been made a Congressional restriction yet or not) because the story about it broke.

And when I said propaganda, I meant targeting citizens at large, not potential recruits.  Any all volunteer force has to recruit where the talent pool is, I get that...but I doubt anyone was stirred to service by seeing someone from a nearby military post or the local Guard/Reserve unit getting a shout-out during a break in the game.  In my mind, the NFL and other sports are being used to flat out preempt questioning of the military industrial complex by chaining support for the troops to avoiding hard questions about just how listless we are in our policy.

[n0rlf]

5 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Your lack of self awareness is simply stupefying.  Wow. Just wow. 

Lack of self awareness because I think differently? That is something I see from the "Other" side normally. The college kids from the last decade or so and current ones that really do believe theirs is the only view that should be allowed. 

Now the fact that anyone thinks that way is what is stupefying to most. 

Obviously you go with that crowd by your postings here. As such I understand that a discussion on views is not possible so best I just bow out. 

I tend to have some rather old school ideals and morals so the less I interact with those that blame all of their issues on being over policed or on the "Man" the better. 

You see the is really rather simple to most folks. Don't get into stupid situations where interaction with police is involved and there is little chance of there being an issue. 

I also firmly believe that any authority figure that abuses their position should be dealt with quickly and harshly. However the unions (pushed by one side of the aisle for the most part) protect the bad ones and that leads to more problems. 

So it is my humble opinion that people now are finally tired of the past actions of the left and are starting to speak up. The left is not used to that and are perhaps a little over sensitive. 

Most of us now feel, well, touch cookies. Time to grow the hell up and figure out their are no unicorns, and the free stuff time is over. 

Closing in on 20 trillion in national debt is really scary. This is the time where most parents crack down and say no more to the spoiled brats. Difference is the spoiled brats have no parents anymore, nor anyone to really mentor them. So thus they are offended by everything. Really seems like a bunch of spoiled toddlers. 

[Oh Shoot]

9 hours ago, DaveTN said:

....

Their team owners have the freedom to fire their azz for doing so, ..

Maybe. Contract law rules here.

- OS

[Omega]

5 minutes ago, btq96r said:

I think it only changes or changed (not sure if it's been made a Congressional restriction yet or not) because the story about it broke.

And when I said propaganda, I meant targeting citizens at large, not potential recruits.  Any all volunteer force has to recruit where the talent pool is, I get that...but I doubt anyone was stirred to service by seeing someone from a nearby military post or the local Guard/Reserve unit getting a shout-out during a break in the game.  In my mind, the NFL and other sports are being used to flat out preempt questioning of the military industrial complex by chaining support for the troops to avoiding hard questions about just how listless we are in our policy.

No, they are using it as a recruiting tool.  How many people would volunteer, or allow family to volunteer if they seen troops treated like they were during the Vietnam war?

 

1 minute ago, Oh Shoot said:

Maybe. Contract law rules here.

- OS

Most contracts do not allow making the team or the NFL look bad, though I see that part is subjective.

[n0rlf]

1 minute ago, Oh Shoot said:

Maybe. Contract law rules here.

- OS

Most sports contracts have a clause to cover this. If not then the owners have other remedies. The bench comes to mind. No field time hurts their ego as well as their bonuses and stats which means they are worth less to any new prospective owner. Ask CK how that is working out for him. 

[btq96r]

3 minutes ago, Omega said:

No, they are using it as a recruiting tool.  How many people would volunteer, or allow family to volunteer if they seen troops treated like they were during the Vietnam war?

We had enough volunteer to carry us through Grenada, Panama, Desert Shield/Storm...all of those while the end strength of the military was way higher than today.  Then continue through the Balkans interventions, all the way to the kickoffs of Afghanistan, and Iraq.  Not sure when all these tributes to the troops became fashionable in sporting events, but part of me wonders if it came about during the heyday of Iraq when people started questioning how wrong it was go topple the country in the first place.  Regardless of when it started, like any good public control tool, it passed from administration to administration.

I think as long as we don't see the disgraces we saw in Soldiers being spit on coming off the plane or automatically equated to baby killers, there will be volunteers enough.  The adventure, steady paycheck, opportunity to escape the economic circumstances of youth, and being able to serve your country are too alluring to be otherwise...all four were enough to get me to sign up, acclamations and public praise were never in my mind.

[Omega]

25 minutes ago, btq96r said:

We had enough volunteer to carry us through Grenada, Panama, Desert Shield/Storm...all of those while the end strength of the military was way higher than today.  Then continue through the Balkans interventions, all the way to the kickoffs of Afghanistan, and Iraq.  Not sure when all these tributes to the troops became fashionable in sporting events, but part of me wonders if it came about during the heyday of Iraq when people started questioning how wrong it was go topple the country in the first place.  Regardless of when it started, like any good public control tool, it passed from administration to administration.

I think as long as we don't see the disgraces we saw in Soldiers being spit on coming off the plane or automatically equated to baby killers, there will be volunteers enough.  The adventure, steady paycheck, opportunity to escape the economic circumstances of youth, and being able to serve your country are too alluring to be otherwise...all four were enough to get me to sign up, acclamations and public praise were never in my mind.

Those type of incidents may not be too far ahead.  There are some that are really off their rails.

http://www.dailyherald.com/news/20170928/u-46-board-member-the-flag-means-nothing-more-than-toilet-paper-to-me

 

[btq96r]

57 minutes ago, Omega said:

Those type of incidents may not be too far ahead.  There are some that are really off their rails.

http://www.dailyherald.com/news/20170928/u-46-board-member-the-flag-means-nothing-more-than-toilet-paper-to-me

 

Ehh, all she's done is type up a Facebook post.  I'd call it a "look at me" moment, but on Facebook that's the whole point it seems.

[Links2k]

2 hours ago, n0rlf said:

You see the is really rather simple to most folks. Don't get into stupid situations where interaction with police is involved and there is little chance of there being an issue. 

I really didn't want to comment in this thread, because some of you just don't know when to stop. 

Your statement caught my eye because it pretty much explains why people are protesting.

I'm not going to say that everyone who has a negative interaction with the cops is a law abiding citizen, The protest are occurring because people of color are dying for minor or out right bogus infractions after interactions with law enforcement. Even with video, people of color still don't get the benefit of doubt. 

As far as athletes go, even their millions don't exempt them from mistreatment. Their money also doesn't isolate their kids and relatives  from rouge cops.  

I don't blame you for being tone deaf.  It seems that the majority of the country suffers from the same ailment. 

The people complaining/protesting have endured this behavior for generations. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it's not happening. 

As long as some of you want to pretend that this issue is about the anthem and the flag, you'll be shadow boxing. If you truly believe that all Americans deserve equal protections under the law, you'll help pressure the justice department to actively investigate the mistreatment and killings of minorities at the hands of officers of the state. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by LINKS2K

[john455]

Most people I know have no problem with the players protesting what they are protesting, it is the way they choose to do it we have a problem with. Taking a knee during the anthem is the main beef everyone has with it. Not the message itself!! I firmly support there right to protest whatever they want to, but I also have the right to disagree with their method of protesting and show my disagreement by boycotting all NFL programming and doing my best not to buy and products made by their sponsors. Their right to protest isn't being debated or the validity of the thing they are protesting, it has been almost forgotten because of the way they chose to protest, so I ask you what good is any of these protests doing??

[Omega]

4 minutes ago, john455 said:

Most people I know have no problem with the players protesting what they are protesting, it is the way they choose to do it we have a problem with. Taking a knee during the anthem is the main beef everyone has with it. Not the message itself!! I firmly support there right to protest whatever they want to, but I also have the right to disagree with their method of protesting and show my disagreement by boycotting all NFL programming and doing my best not to buy and products made by their sponsors. Their right to protest isn't being debated or the validity of the thing they are protesting, it has been almost forgotten because of the way they chose to protest, so I ask you what good is any of these protests doing??

That's what I've been saying but some just can't comprehend that; they only want to see things their way.

[Bob T]

7 hours ago, Omega said:

If they would have stayed in the locker room, and said they are just pulling away from the politics I'd have a different opinion. But no, they want to stay in or lock arms in protest so, we are where we are.

It is my understanding, that it was the US Army, with their big sponsorship dollars, that pressured them to be out on the field for the anthem, flyovers and other ra-ra stuff.

[Bob T]

16 minutes ago, john455 said:

...so I ask you what good is any of these protests doing??

They are starting a dialog between people about a difficult subject, just like we are doing in this thread.

[Omega]

15 minutes ago, Bob T said:

It is my understanding, that it was the US Army, with their big sponsorship dollars, that pressured them to be out on the field for the anthem, flyovers and other ra-ra stuff.

Again, if they would of just stayed in their locker room and kept out of it, we wouldn't be at this point.  And now that they are acting like they are, I'm sure DOD is having second thoughts as well.

[Chucktshoes]

8 minutes ago, Omega said:

Again, if they would of just stayed in their locker room and kept out of it, we wouldn't be at this point.  And now that they are acting like they are, I'm sure DOD is having second thoughts as well.

 When I compare this post to the title of this thread I come away a little bit perplexed. 

[Hozzie]

I am so tired of the entire narrative of social injustice.  Have there been some bad things happen, sure.  Is it the norm, not even close.  

I think some of you need to go ride along with cops and see what they deal with on a daily basis, especially in the inner cities.  You would have a much different opinion about the term social injustice as it is being thrown around to basically say everyone is racist.  If you haven't done that, you have no idea what these officers deal with on a daily basis.  This is a community problem, which just so happens the predominant race in the communities with major problems is black.

We are not still in the 60's. 70's, and 80's, although the black 'leadership' would like you to still think we are.  All they have to use now is the false premise that Blacks are still being treated like they were 40 years ago.  BS.  

The more I hear the complaining, the less I care about their supposed cause.  Everyone has to be a victim, it couldn't possibly be that they are responsible in any way for what happens to them.  I don't feel the least bit responsible for the poor decisions made by most and won't be shamed into thinking their problems are due to the color of my skin or financial standing.  

The smart ones know what the root cause is for all of this, poor decisions and a lack of accountability.  When the black communities start to worry about cleaning up their own issues, then I may start to care.  Until then, this white guy just don't give a rats ass.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Hozzie

[MacGyver]

You know, I've spent a lot of time this week thinking about this and praying about it some.

I spent some time over in Paris, Tennessee this week talking with some folks who were upset about the protests, but who also had an apt observation that "the stuff players are protesting was outside of their day-to-day experience." They see these issues on the news some - but it's a long way away when you really don't get that far out of Henry county that often.

I think something liberals, intellectuals, city folk and even some of the conservative press do poorly is just assume that everyone should "get it" when that's not a given. Life is way different in Nashville than it is just 75 miles away - whether that's Paris, Red Boiling Springs or Pulaski. It's not a fair argument to assume both sides are working from the same vantage point - and both sides will likely end up resenting one another.

But, one thing is increasingly clear - and that is tribalism in America is being exploited by the political class as a whole to divide us - not unite us. It's a disturbing trend where the public is being manipulated on so many fronts - and both parties are guilty of this.

But, one question that I've really been struggling with this week is, what does it say about our country when some folks try to start a conversation about racism in America today and it gets turned into a debate about love for our country itself?

[Bob T]

1 minute ago, MacGyver said:

But, one question that I've really been struggling with this week is, what does it say about our country when some folks try to start a conversation about racism in America today and it gets turned into a debate about love for our country itself?

That is an excellent question...

[deerslayer]

But is it really about racism?

[Omega]

37 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

But, one question that I've really been struggling with this week is, what does it say about our country when some folks try to start a conversation about racism in America today and it gets turned into a debate about love for our country itself?

Well, it's like me walking up to your house and ripping up your flower beds to get you into a conversation about the HOA.  It would be hard to get past the flower issue.  Same deal here, it's hard getting some, me included, to care why you are disrespecting the very country, and by extension, the soldiers that secured your freedom to act like an azzhat.

[MacGyver]

14 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

But is it really about racism?

I can only take them at their word, but I believe what Kaepernick said and wrote early on. 

Whether you agree with the viewpoint or not is a different matter - but the protest cost him his job, so I have to believe he knew what he was getting into going in.

As to what it’s become - any cause that gets attention will get folks trying to latch onto it to capture some time in the spotlight.  As to last weekend, I think a lot of that was in reaction to Trump’s “sons of bitches” comment.  The weekend previous only about 10 players had taken a knee - so you’d have to argue that Trump’s comments amplified the issue.  

[MacGyver]

19 minutes ago, Omega said:

Well, it's like me walking up to your house and ripping up your flower beds to get you into a conversation about the HOA.  It would be hard to get past the flower issue.  Same deal here, it's hard getting some, me included, to care why you are disrespecting the very country, and by extension, the soldiers that secured your freedom to act like an azzhat.

I get the sentiment. 

But then I find it hard to sync up with the actions. The Ravens took a knee as a team before the anthem today and then stood as one for the anthem. The fans still drowned out the anthem with their booing. They booed their own players against playing against the Steelers.

I’m sorry. I get the sentiment. I really do. But forced patriotism is not patriotism. We have a different word for that. And it’s one that our veterans have fought against. 

We’re bigger than this as a country - or should be. America should be large enough to tolerate dissent and even encourage it. Maybe in doing so we actually create a better version of ourselves.

 

BTW, you’re welcome to come help me rip out my flower beds anytime. Lord knows they need some help. My HOA might in fact welcome it

[MacGyver]

My thoughts above have been expressed more eloquently than I can put them a long time ago.  In 1943 - during the worst days of WWII.  A bunch of Jehovahs Witnesses filed suit after their children were expelled from school for refusing to say the pledge of allegiance citing religious objections.  The case went to the Supreme Court, and Justice Robert Jackson wrote the following in the majority opinion:

Quote

 

The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

 

In a concurring opinion, two other justices who had changed their opinion following an earlier case wrote the following:

Quote

"Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest," ..."Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions."

Mind you - the NFL is a private enterprise.  The Bill of Rights doesn't necessarily apply here - and shouldn't.  Team owners are free to do what they will and fans are welcome to respond accordingly. I expect the players union will weigh in at some point when they decide it's too costly to do otherwise. Protests are rarely comfortable, I guess.

But, if we're going to have this big weekly display of civil religion, you should kind of expect this stuff.