Let there be light

[xsubsailor]

 It's finally happened, people are starting to see the light and realize that their college degrees aren't worth the debt 

According to the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, only 49 percent of Americans now believe that a four-year degree will lead to a good job and higher lifetime earnings. An overwhelming 47 percent claimed that they don’t believe a four-year degree will increase job and earnings prospects.

The findings reflect an increase in public skepticism of higher education from just four years ago and highlight a growing divide in opinion falling along gender, educational, regional and partisan lines. They also carry political implications for universities, already under public pressure to rein in their costs and adjust curricula after decades of sharp tuition increases.

Americans are increasingly concerned about the rising costs of an education. Student debt totals have reached $1.3 trillion, and millions have fallen behind on student-loan payments.

“I have friends from high school that are making half what I’m making, and they went and got a four-year degree or better, and they’re still $50-, $60-, $70,000 dollars in debt,” 32-year-old Jeff McKenna said, who passed on college in favor of trade school. He earns $50,000 a year as a mechanic. “There’s a huge need for skilled labor in his country.”

Universities around the country have been forced to become aware of the shift in public attitude towards the product they are offering. “We’re aware of the various polls that show this decline in confidence. It’s happening across a wide variety of institutions,” said Heather Swain, Vice President for Communications and Brand Strategy at Michigan State. “One of the things we’re doing is to try and make sure people understand the value of the university in different ways.”

University of Florida Provost Joseph Glover says that the shift in public confidence is “somewhat startling.” He said, “I think this is happening because there is a disconnect between the group of Americans who go to university and acquire an appreciation of life-long learning and another group people who never get access and never really understand the benefits a university brings to society at large.”

Breitbart News previously reported that schools such as the University of Missouri and Evergreen State College have faced significant enrollment issues after failing to uphold principles of free expression.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/09/08/wsj-poll-americans-losing-faith-in-college-degrees/

[analog_kidd]

I've seen reports that say Millennials are managing their money better than previous generations at their age. Perhaps this has something to do with it... They realize the ROI of being saddled with massive debt is not there.

It has been drummed into everyone's heads over the past few decades that you HAVE to go to college. How many people do you know that went to college for 4 years, amassed $60,000 worth of student loans and are now working at Walmart, doing nothing similar to what their degree is in. College just isn't for everyone. That's not a bad thing, lots of people are very successful without having a college degree. What really matters is drive and gumption.

I would love to see a swing toward Trade Schools becoming popular. Plumbers, Electricians, HVAC Tech, etc. can all easily make $60k - $80k a year, especially if they have their own business. Paying $15k for Tech school and making $60k sounds a lot better than paying $60k for college and making $15k.

I would also love to see a push in high schools toward a technical bent. If a kid really doesn't have the desire (or capacity) to go to college, let them spend their last two years of HS in Trade type classes. Teach them Auto Shop, Welding, Plumbing, maybe some basic business classes. It would empower them to be successful without a college degree.

[bersaguy]

57 minutes ago, analog_kidd said:

I've seen reports that say Millennials are managing their money better than previous generations at their age. Perhaps this has something to do with it... They realize the ROI of being saddled with massive debt is not there.

It has been drummed into everyone's heads over the past few decades that you HAVE to go to college. How many people do you know that went to college for 4 years, amassed $60,000 worth of student loans and are now working at Walmart, doing nothing similar to what their degree is in. College just isn't for everyone. That's not a bad thing, lots of people are very successful without having a college degree. What really matters is drive and gumption.

I would love to see a swing toward Trade Schools becoming popular. Plumbers, Electricians, HVAC Tech, etc. can all easily make $60k - $80k a year, especially if they have their own business. Paying $15k for Tech school and making $60k sounds a lot better than paying $60k for college and making $15k.

I would also love to see a push in high schools toward a technical bent. If a kid really doesn't have the desire (or capacity) to go to college, let them spend their last two years of HS in Trade type classes. Teach them Auto Shop, Welding, Plumbing, maybe some basic business classes. It would empower them to be successful without a college degree.

You have some very good points for sure. I have heard all my life I want better for you than I had so you need to go to college. I offered college to both of my sons which of course oldest died in a car crash but youngest son was working part time with me in Auto Repair business while finishing High School and Auto Mechanics was what he wanted to do in his future so I did pay for his education in Auto Tech School in Nashville and when he graduated I turned the business over to him as I could no longer work due to health. He is still in business today repairing cars. He was able to put both of his boys through a trade school and the oldest one is an owns an Electrical Contractor Business and his little brother works with him as general manager and his business is booming and he has 8 full time 10 person crews running wide open trying to keep up with demand with all of the construction going on in Tennessee.

My Grandson was very smart in doing one thing for his business. He decided to get started he would subcontract his small operation to much bigger Electrical Contractors and that was how he got started 12 years ago. All the time he was subcontracting his services he was adding more and more employees and being able to do more jobs for the big guys. A year ago he became 1 of the big guys and the big contractors were actually recomended him to building contractors for jobs they could not get to. His father and I are very proud of the two boys. They have made big bucks and did not squander it all away like many young people do these days. They both built houses for them selves and they are paid off and now both have small families.

Well I have gone on long enough. I try not to brag about my family to much but I am proud that I don't have any slackers in my son, grandsons or Son in Law..................

[GlockSpock]

What would happen if the market was flooded with electricians, HBAV workers, plumbers and welders?


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[gregintenn]

I haven't been around a contractor in quite a while who hasn't asked me if I knew any laborers, carpenters, or equipment operators they could hire. Today, a man can make a very comfortable living operating a paver, trackhoe, crane, dozier, etc. As most operators and even foremen age, I see these jobs becoming more and more lucrative.

[gregintenn]

5 minutes ago, CZ9MM said:

What would happen if the market was flooded with electricians, HBAV workers, plumbers and welders?


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These professions would command lower salaries.

[bersaguy]

18 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I haven't been around a contractor in quite a while who hasn't asked me if I knew any laborers, carpenters, or equipment operators they could hire. Today, a man can make a very comfortable living operating a paver, trackhoe, crane, dozier, etc. As most operators and even foremen age, I see these jobs becoming more and more lucrative.

Well, I am not seeing a swarm of people looking to get into any trade schools that would require punching a time clock and working with their hands and manual labor! My Son I Law is the Superintendent of one of the largest Commercial Fireproofing Company in the South east and he has been begging for help for over a year and his boss has given him a green light to hire what ever he needs and he has been forced to use Temp Services because he can't find anyone willing to work. He was able to hire 2 men off the Temp Service after they had filled their contract with the temp service. Since doing that the Temp Service says they don't have anyone capable of filling that type of labor. Those services get Po'ed when a company hires their temps full time. Right now they have 5 positions open and can't find help. I think one of the real problems is finding people that can pass a drug test. They have made appointments for drug tests for about 30 people in last month and not 1 showed up for tests. 

They are starting laborers at $15.00 and hour with time and a half over 40 and they are working an average of 60 hours a week so the men are making good money. $ 1050.00 a week for laborers is not bad money............JMHO

[peejman]

6 hours ago, CZ9MM said:

What would happen if the market was flooded with electricians, HBAV workers, plumbers and welders?


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Given those are jobs that require actual physical work, it's highly unlikely that will happen. 

But if it did, what Greg said will happen. 

[Ronald_55]

I do tech for a construction company and I know for a fact some of our senior field staff make more than me. It is hard to find guys to fill those positions that want to work and have any experience at all. Lots of our guys are at or nearing retirement. Not sure what we are going to do.

[bersaguy]

27 minutes ago, Ronald_55 said:

I do tech for a construction company and I know for a fact some of our senior field staff make more than me. It is hard to find guys to fill those positions that want to work and have any experience at all. Lots of our guys are at or nearing retirement. Not sure what we are going to do.

My guess is when the old guys retire your company is USCWAP just like most companies are right now. Trump is trying his best the bring jobs back on shore but I don't think he realizes that 85% of the Millennials don't want the type of jobs he is talking about bringing back. They don't want manual labor jobs. They want 9 to 5 jobs with full benefits that pay 6 figure salaries or they ain't going to work. They will continue to live in Mom and Dads basement on the free ride. I began working when I was 9 years old, getting out of bed at 3AM and meeting the milk truck driver at my driveway and I ran milk in glass bottles to the houses from the truck and got done about noon and made $2.50 a day. I wonder how many 9 year olds would be willing to do that today???

[hipower]

Dad came in one day and told me he had me a job. One of his friends was the local water commissioner. In that small town, all it meant was that he had to read the meters himself.

So...walk along beside the truck, pop the covers off bend over and stick your head in a spider filled hole. Loads of fun. Rain or shine. Then it snowed. I froze doing it.

All for 10 a week. I lasted about six months.

[Ronald_55]

1 hour ago, hipower said:

Dad came in one day and told me he had me a job. One of his friends was the local water commissioner. In that small town, all it meant was that he had to read the meters himself.

So...walk along beside the truck, pop the covers off bend over and stick your head in a spider filled hole. Loads of fun. Rain or shine. Then it snowed. I froze doing it.

All for 10 a week. I lasted about six months.

That is probably 5 months and 29 days more than most kids today.

My Dad ran a landscape, tree trimming, acoustical ceiling, handyman business on the side. I was told that was my "job" until I got out of school. Sometimes Dad tossed me a few bucks. I made most of my cash picking up aluminum cans at the drag strip while my parents worked there Saturday nights. I usually got a couple full trash bags even if I crushed the cans. Dad hauled them in for me every few months and kept a few bucks for gas since it was a decent ways to the center. That is how I saved for my first car. Things like that taught me to be resourceful. There is always money to be made, you just have to see it and work for it.

[ReeferMac]

I have a B.A. and 20-years of experience working with computers in the Print-biz (Prepress wizard extroirdinaire for you industry folks). Avg. job now pays 12-13/hr., you're lucky if you find 15 (was 20-25 when I gradumicated in 96)

With my CDL-license I'm earning easily 300/wk. more, and just got a promotion after a little over a year on the job (granted, my degree probably helped there, but wasn't a requirement). That's got me ALMOST back to where I was 15 years ago when printing was a well paying 'craftsman' job.

And the kicker is, when I was 22 I was offered a sponsorship into the plumbers union. Would probably be 6-figures had I taken that, but noooo, I wanted to put my degree to use.

 

 

- K

[GlockSpock]

Dad came in one day and told me he had me a job. One of his friends was the local water commissioner. In that small town, all it meant was that he had to read the meters himself.
So...walk along beside the truck, pop the covers off bend over and stick your head in a spider filled hole. Loads of fun. Rain or shine. Then it snowed. I froze doing it.
All for 10 a week. I lasted about six months.

Hey...those spiders are Black Widows. Don't leave that out!


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[Murgatroy]

I fell into the college trap. I goofed off for a couple of years then borrowed my way through college. I spent the next ten years or more doing nothing related to what I went to school for. Sure, I had a decent job and made a decent wage, after years of hard work and proving myself. I sat behind a desk, in a shirt and tie telling people what to do and where to go to make money.

 

Then I realized that I had hated this life for years.

 

I became a plumber. 

 

The point remains that my first year as a plumber on my own truck I will be grossing 40-50% more than I was as a Logistics Manager. It is a respectable job, but we don't have kids lining up to do it. To the point that honestly, if someone told me they wanted the job, I could have them hired the next day. 

 

One of the local unions (I am not union) runs ads daily up here offering a four year debt free apprenticeship program and $30 an hour top out with all benefits included. You get paid to learn a trade. 

[bersaguy]

I was not always a milkman(boy) but I did other things to make money also by age 11.There was this very old gentleman that lived next door to us on the country road and in the swamp ponds behind the house were fish and big turtles the old man taught me how to fish. He also taught me how to catch snapping turtles in the swamp ponds.

Then in the Spring of the year he showed me where and about when the baby painted turtles would hatch and cross the road to get back to the swamps from the warm hill sides. Now I bet your wondering what I ment by not always a milk boy.

As I grew a little older I began catching those snapping turtles and putting them in cages in our back yard the old man gave me. People in the small town we lived in loved to eat snapping turtle so as they wanted some turtle they would come out to our house and buy a turtle. I would put the turtle alive in a tote sack and place it in the trunk of their car for $6.50 cents but the turtles would weigh about 35 to 45 lbs depending on which one they picked. I would sell about 40 to 50 a summer. In the Spring when the painted baby turtles began crossing the road they would come at rate of 25 to 50 a day and I would collect them and when I had about 200 or more my mother would take me to several pet shops in the area and I would sell for 25 cents each and make an average of 40 to 50 bucks a trip. I was also in the bait business. The old man showed me how to catch night crawlers at night after a good rain. They would come out at night and you had to be fast or they would scoot back in their hole. You would use a flashlight to find them in your yards. I found that by putting a green colored lense on the light they didn't move back to hole quite as fast making them easier to catch. The DesPlaines River ran just out side of our town and the african Americans would come out of Chicago on weekends and fish for Carp and Bullheads along the banks with mostly cane poles. They would buy their night crawlers in Chicago and pay $1.00 for 10 crawlers. I began taking tin cans of night crawlers with 25 worms for 75 cents and I sold out every time I went and I would have 50+ cans. All my neighbors save cans for me. When it did not rain my father knew the guy that ran to Golf Course in the town and they would water about every day and the man would let me collect night crawlers on the fairways but was not allowed on any greens but I could almost fill a 5 gallon pail in 2 hours. The old man had built me a big worm bed for me to keep the night crawlers in and I kept it full during ice out when the river was flowing. Later when I was about 12 or 13 the old man taught me his secret weapon Dough Ball bait recipe made with Wheates, eggs, Vanilla extract and water and Carp loved them. I would make them during the week and freeze them wrapped in wax paper and take them to the river along with the night crawlers and sold them 10 for a dollar but first I had to prove to the men that they worked. I had stepped up to rod and reel then and owned 2 Zebco 33's on metal rods and got to the river on my bike pulling my wagon full of products before sun up and would catch a couple bigger Carp that lived off the bank so when they saw me catching fish on them they not only bought the Dough Balls but bought the big Carp too. The summer I was 13 I was selling snappers, Painted turtles, Worms and Dough balls and fish and ended the summer earning over $500.00. I had a bank account and every Monday I would make a deposit. I would keep out what I wanted to spend and saved the rest.

I was quite the business man for a couple years which was what helped me be able to buy a few shotguns for hunting and my Colt single action back then. I lost the old Gentleman as he passed away when I was 15 and I had lost a very good friend.

I know this was kind of long but I thought some might find it amusing how a young person would work back then to make money verses what kids think is important today in their lives......

[gregintenn]

When I was a small kid, I helped my neighbors pollinate tobacco. They made tobacco seed for Co op. I also mowed yards, milked another neighbor's goats, etc; for money. As I got older and stronger, I helped cut and spike tobacco, and hang it in barns, as this paid much better than the pollinating because it was much harder work. I also hauled baled ha and straw. By the time I was in high school, I had purchased two classic cars, a 4x4 truck, bass boat, a Harley Davidson Sportster, and a racing dirt bike.

I had a friend down the road who was more industrious than me. He raised his own tobacco crop, and built his own barn when he was about 14. Today, he's still a farmer, and a multi millionaire.

The money is out there if a fellow has a little ambition and a good work ethic. Education not required.

[bersaguy]

15 hours ago, gregintenn said:

When I was a small kid, I helped my neighbors pollinate tobacco. They made tobacco seed for Co op. I also mowed yards, milked another neighbor's goats, etc; for money. As I got older and stronger, I helped cut and spike tobacco, and hang it in barns, as this paid much better than the pollinating because it was much harder work. I also hauled baled ha and straw. By the time I was in high school, I had purchased two classic cars, a 4x4 truck, bass boat, a Harley Davidson Sportster, and a racing dirt bike.

I had a friend down the road who was more industrious than me. He raised his own tobacco crop, and built his own barn when he was about 14. Today, he's still a farmer, and a multi millionaire.

The money is out there if a fellow has a little ambition and a good work ethic. Education not required.

Yep, back when growing up I think all kids knew not to stand with their hand out waiting for Mom and Dad to put money in it like they do these days. Now with that said, I am not talking about all kids.  There are a lot of youngsters that will still go out and earn money cutting lawns in their neighborhoods and rake leaves in the Fall and do other odd jobs for neighbors to earn their own money but they are the exceptions and have goals. I have all respect for these kids for sure.