Disarming HCPer during traffic stop without notification

[Volphin]

I just saw a video on my FB where a LEO in TN conducted a Terry Stop on a motorcyclist due to an improperly mounted tag.  The guy was wearing a GoPro on his helmet.  Anyway, the LEO states that he saw him leave a gas station with his helmet on and his sidearm OC, then proceeds to tell him his plate is not mounted correctly.  The cyclist is still on his bike, and the bike is off.  As the cyclist glances forward for a second, the LEO quickly snatches the HCPers sidearm without warning or provocation.  It seemed to startle the young cyclist a bit, but he asked why he was disarmed, and why he didn't ask for it.  

I can understand LEO safety first, but is this a legal maneuver?  It also seems to me that the LEO could have accidentally discharged the firearm during his snatch and grab.  

Just throwing it out there...

[Erik88]

Let me tell you more about this former Lenoir City officer. He's the same one who jumped in the bed of a truck as it was driving off and then killed the driver. A few months later he tasered an unarmed black youth that was playing outside his home. He was subsequently fired. My friend worked with him at the time and said he had some anger issues.

[Volphin]

Erik, I'm not going to talk badly about anyone who puts on a uniform and puts themselves in harm's way to protect and serve, even if they are no longer with the dept.  I was just curious as I have never seen this happen.

[KahrMan]

There was a lot of discussion here about this incident when it happened.  I think most agreed the officer had the right to disarm him, even if we do not agree with it, but he went about it in a stupid and dangerous way.

[DaveTN]

How he did it wasn’t smart; but it was legal. The state of Tennessee does not believe that you have a right to bear arms. The Officer can disarm you if he so chooses.

[monkeylizard]

Here's that old thread. It went on for a while, so get some popcorn.

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by monkeylizard

[Volphin]

Good Lord we're good at splitting hairs!  It took three bag of popcorn!

 

[Sunfish]

The more you stir it the worse it smells. Improper is a good summary. 

[JayC]

On 8/11/2017 at 7:22 PM, DaveTN said:

How he did it wasn’t smart; but it was legal. The state of Tennessee does not believe that you have a right to bear arms. The Officer can disarm you if he so chooses.

Sorry for being late to the party, but that just isn't true.  In order to legally disarm a permit holder the officer must have a REASONABLE belief they need to for their safety or the safety of others.  Since the belief must be reasonable, it must also be specific to that permit holder.

So departments with policies to disarm all HCP's are illegal on their face.  Individual officers who disarm permit holders every time are also acting unlawfully.

The problem?  No DA is going to do anything about it.  So officers are allowed to blatantly violate the law with no way to prevent them from doing so. 

[m16ty]

A friend of mine was disarmed by a officer one time. The officer asked him if the would exit the vehicle so he could disarm him for the officer's safety. He got out, put his hands on the hood, and the officer reached from behind and removed the pistol. The officer told him what he was doing and why and it was done. While I still don't see the reason why to disarm a non-violent permit holder, at least this disarming was done in a controlled manner.

 

[chances R]

Any LEO may disarm any permit holder per 39-17-1351 (t).  Concern for safety is the only reason needed.  Given today's issues, I think any officer would be given wide leeway in what he considers reasonable.

[Dolomite_supafly]

About a year ago I was coming home from a local restaurant with food for my wife. It was really cold so I was trying to get home before the food got cold. I was speeding and was probably doing 15 mph over on a local highway where the speed limit is 50 mph. As I turned onto my dead end road I looked in the rear view mirror to see a patrol coming up on me rather fast but without his lights or sirens going. Realizing that he was probably going to pull me over for speeding I pulled off to the side of the road and turned off my ignition before he could hit his lights. A few seconds after I pulled over he pulled in about 15 yards behind my car and hit the emergency lights. Because my car was already off I could not roll down my electric windows so I opened my door to tell him my windows were not working. That is when he came unhinged and started yelling things like "you want some of this" as well as "bring it on if you want to die today" from behind the door of his cruiser. I honestly cannot remember with 100% certainty but I would swear to the fact he had his pistol pointed at me as he yelled those things. There was about a two minutes of him yelling taunts at me before he yelled commands for me exit my vehicle. As I exited my vehicle he went full retard and did a full blown felony traffic stop on me, FOR SPEEDING. As I got out of my vehicle the officer had me walk backwards towards him with my hands on top of my head. Somewhere between my vehicle and his the officer grabbed me by my hands that were no top of my head and put me against the trunk of my car. It was at that time I informed him I had a gun and a valid HCP. That didn't change his attitude one bit and he continued to aggressively search me head to toe after taking my gun. I honestly thought I was going to jail for something because of the way he acted. All this occurred in front of a neighbors house and I was being searched as they were coming home from church. My neighbors had to drive through their yard because my car was blocking their driveway. After he ran me he came back and apologized over and over again for how he acted and tried to make excuses for why he acted the way he did. After I told him I understood he handed my gun back and sent me on my way. I had every intention of informing him I had a gun as soon as I could but I knew I didn't want to tell him I had a gun while he was excited with his gun pointed at me. If this is how he acts on all traffic stops it will just be a matter of time before someone gets hurt. The officer that pulled me over worked for THP and was definitely a younger, unseasoned officer. And if he did shoot I would no doubt be painted as some bad guy because I did have a gun on me, legal or not. It was truly disturbing how that trooper acted over a speeding violation, that he didn't even write.

Having a gun, even legally, is all that is needed to justify a shooting any more. Even if you don't have a gun you can be shot if the officer thinks you do and "feels threatened".

 

[aknifemaker]

Unfortunately the climate is being stirred by the liberal media pitting LEO's against citizens so even if you are a law abiding person maybe you will think twice about having a gun because a cop will shoot you.

The seeds of doubt are being sown.

[TripleGGG]

20 minutes ago, aknifemaker said:

Unfortunately the climate is being stirred by the liberal media pitting LEO's against citizens so even if you are a law abiding person maybe you will think twice about having a gun because a cop will shoot you.

The seeds of doubt are being sown.

This. Slow and subtle but highly effective. 

[DaveTN]

I figure my chances of being shot by a cop because I’m carrying are zero.

I figure my chances of having a cop point a gun at me are the same as any other citizen; armed or not. That could happen without any input from me, and without me (or anyone else) being armed.

[Dolomite_supafly]

11 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I figure my chances of being shot by a cop because I’m carrying are zero.

I figure my chances of having a cop point a gun at me are the same as any other citizen; armed or not. That could happen without any input from me, and without me (or anyone else) being armed.

And they should have to follow the same laws we do. If I can’t point a loaded gun at a stranger then an officer should not be able to either, without justification. And “I’m scared” isn’t justification unless I can use the same reason. 

 

[TripleGGG]

2 minutes ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

And they should have to follow the same laws we do. If I can’t point a loaded gun at a stranger then an officer should not be able to either, without justification. And “I’m scared” isn’t justification unless I can use the same reason. 

 

Agree tenfold

[DaveTN]

30 minutes ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

And they should have to follow the same laws we do. If I can’t point a loaded gun at a stranger then an officer should not be able to either, without justification. And “I’m scared” isn’t justification unless I can use the same reason. 

 

A Police Officer has to be able to articulate his reasons for pulling his weapon. If he felt he was in danger; that’s pretty easy to articulate. I’ve been involved in felony stops. My weapon was drawn and at the ready. It may not have been pointed directly at them, but I bet when they told their story it was.

If I walked into a domestic violence call and was met by a family member saying “He has a gun” (it's happened) we weren’t having any conversations about whether or not he was legally armed. Not until he was disarmed.

I see no reason to disarm someone on a traffic stop for speeding. But traffic stops can quickly escalate into something more. The Officer may see something that’s changes everything. We don't always get the whole story.

[Dolomite_supafly]

And those examples are reasons why an officer should have his gun drawn. 

A traffic stop for a traffic violation is not a reason to have a gun drawn, especially before making contact yet we have both seen it hundreds of times. 

 

[monkeylizard]

4 hours ago, DaveTN said:

A Police Officer has to be able to articulate his reasons for pulling his weapon. If he felt he was in danger; that’s pretty easy to articulate.

It's the reason, not the feeling that has to be articulated.

In Dolomite's case, the trooper may have been a scared rookie making his first night time solo stop and heard one too many stories about stops going wrong. Or he could have just heard a BOLO over the radio for a murdering bank robbing rapist with poor taste in music and driving a vehicle matching Dolo's.

In the later case, the reason for feeling in danger during the stop is easy to articulate and is reasonable. In the former, it's not, and it isn't.

Edited November 11, 2017 by monkeylizard

[Dolomite_supafly]

And those examples are reasons why an officer should have his gun drawn. 

A traffic stop for a traffic violation is not a reason to have a gun drawn, especially before making contact yet we have both seen it hundreds of times. 

 

[JayC]

On 11/11/2017 at 12:40 PM, DaveTN said:

I figure my chances of being shot by a cop because I’m carrying are zero.

I figure my chances of having a cop point a gun at me are the same as any other citizen; armed or not. That could happen without any input from me, and without me (or anyone else) being armed.

While true, the chances are 8 times more likely that you'll be killed by a police officer than a terrorist.

https://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-killed-police-officer-terrorist

The fact is police officers are violating TN law daily without having a specific reasonable belief that a permit holder needs to be disarmed for their protection.  And they get away with it because nobody will hold them accountable.

You and I are expected to follow the law to the letter, and if we violate the law would likely face criminal sanctions.  Shouldn't police officer be held to a higher standard of conduct than the citizens they are sworn to protect?

[Dolomite_supafly]

I believe police officers should not be held to a higher standard. They are human so they will err and when they do apply the law in the same way it would be applied to any other citizen. 

Police officers are citizens first and as such should be required to follow ALL the laws other citizens must follow. When they are not then that creates a segment of society that is exempt from following the law making them a protected class, above their fellow citizens, which is wrong. 

Laws are rarely applied equally when a police office is the one breaking those laws.