Shoot With & Support 5th Special Forces Group: 9/9-9/10, Rockcastle Shooting Center

[Matt in TN]

People always have questions about scoring. I admit this can be confusing - especially since every Run N Gun is a little different. Scoring for THIS match reflects the priorities of the 5th Special Forces Group, so while it is pretty similar to what we did here in March there are a few differences. 

First, the similarities:

Your total score is made up of 50% run time and 50% shoot time, so you have to both run fast and shoot well to score well overall. To break this down further - the fastest runner overall will get 500 points. Each runner below that will get a percentage of 500 points based on how much slower than that fastest runner they are. The fastest shooter at Stage 1 will get 100 points, and every shooter below that will get a percentage of those 100 points based on how much slower than the fastest shooter they are. And so on for all five stages. Since there are 5 stages, there are 500 possible points for shooting. So theoretically - if someone was the fastest runner and won each and every shooting stage they'd get 1,000 points and win the match. That has yet to EVER happen, so the actual match winner is always someone who balances shooting well with running fast - which is as it should be.

Now, the differences (from March):

For each target you Fail To Neutralize (FTN) as per the stage description, we will add 10 seconds to your shoot time for that stage. For each "No Shoot" you hit (once or multiple times), 10 seconds will be added to your shoot time for that stage. And since 5th Group never quits - neither can you. You have to keep shooting until you've either hit all the targets or your 3 minutes are up. You CANNOT just quit early and "take the penalty." The only exception to this is if you THINK you hit all the targets, but didn't. For example: you shoot 5 times at a paper pistol target, think you hit it all 5 times, and move on - but when it's scored they only find 4 hits. You'd have 10 seconds added to your shoot time as an FTN penalty for that stage.

So even if you do not finish the shooting stage, you will still get some points based on how many targets you DID hit (unlilke in March).

And two Match DQ penalties (you get a zero score for the match and get sent home early) that may be new to some:

1. If you get caught with a loaded rifle ANYWHERE but immediately after you are given the "fire" command or the start buzzer goes off
2. If you drop a loaded pistol ANYWHERE in the course

Any questions?

[Matt in TN]

I can't give you the stage details, but I can show you the course map to give you an idea where you'll be going.  I won't make you plot bearings and count steps, but navigating and following a simple map IS a part of this challenge.  We'll have paint on the roads, signs with arrows at every turn, and caution tape marking the trail through the woods - but every year someone gets lost or confused. Study the map and know where you're going.  Print it out and bring it along if you'd like to be sure.

If you were here in March, you'll note that the course is VERY similar and the shooting locations are identical.  Also note that the small dogleg off of Slave Cave Road is gone.  We've moved all the obstacles to be just prior to the stage locations this time, so there was no reason for the bypass off the road.  That has the added bonus of cutting back the mileage to a perfect 5k, and adding an extra hill!

[Matt in TN]

Rule Change:  5th Group decided a pre-run weigh-in was too easy.  You must be carrying 25%+ of your bodyweight when you FINISH the run to qualify for Combat Class.  We'll weigh you before the run so you can know where you start out on the match scale - but the weight that counts is when you finish.  If you're not at 25% or more, you'll be kicked down to Race Class and have carried all that weight for nothing.  

Sorry for the mix-up - I assumed we do this like we did before and never even asked them what they thought.  You can kick me as you run by if you scan still lift your legs by then!

[Matt in TN]

For those that don't know, I'm doing all the match admin stuff while my 5th Group counterparts give me direction on what they want to see and take care of the sponsorships and prize table stuff.  I am amazed (but not surprised, given what these guys make happen on a regular basis) how much they've been able to accomplish in the three short weeks since we hatched this idea.  Here's all the sponsors they have on board already:

For anyone NOT coming - you will be sorry you didn't shoot this match when you see the video and pics. I wish I could share more ahead of time - but $50 match fee, all these sponsors, a great cause, awesome stages you won't see anywhere else - you've got nothing to lose!

And don't even think of using your current fitness level as an excuse. ANYONE can finish this course, no matter your fitness level. And I promise you, you will never have so much fun working so hard in your life.

We have only 16 slots left open for the 5k, and PLENTY still available for the shooting stages only ("2-Gun Match") on Sunday.  Don't wait.  Just do it.

[gjohnsoniv]

Out of curiosity, could you explain the bias more towards the handgun over the rifle? Not that it makes aNY difference but I'm just wondering.

[Matt in TN]

7 minutes ago, gjohnsoniv said:

Out of curiosity, could you explain the bias more towards the handgun over the rifle? Not that it makes aNY difference but I'm just wondering.

Mostly it is because when I said "2 hits to neutralize?" to the 5th group guys they looked at me like I was stupid and said "I'd NEVER shoot anything just twice!"

"So how many hits do you want to require to neutralize a paper target?", I asked.

They had a few back and forths amongst themselves and said "5 hits for the pistol, and 3 hits for the rifle".  Anything worth shooting with a pistol is worth shooting 5 times to them - so the handgun ammo count very quickly goes up!

Sidenote - they did agree that, in their experience in the field, 2 hits from a .223 was about equal to 1 hit from a .308.  But we didn't want to overcomplicate the scoring by bringing in a Heavy Metal category just yet.

[gjohnsoniv]

Makes sense. 

[Matt in TN]

Some gear/preparation advice directly from 5th Group Personnel:

Here are my thoughts on equipment load outs for a match like this. I will discuss my mindset on how I would go about organizing myself and my equipment for a situation like this. I will add pictures for examples of loadouts as soon as I get more than a second free. This might not be exactly what you thought it would be at first, but if you're patient I think you can gain from it. I hope this helps somebody out there at least....
 
It is my opinion, that the best way to start attacking a problem set like this is to first outline the problem, the knowns/unknowns, and the gaps in either your training or equipment. Only after you do this can you be truly confident that what you have setup is truly best for you and the situation.
 
First: The problem
This situation can be reminiscent of a combat scenario. You know your general goals, but are blind to the things most gamers deem mandatory such as a finite round-count, target ranges and sizes and locations. While some of this information may be presented to you at the stage brief it does you little to no good during match preparation. If faced with a problem-set like this we will attempt to define what we can, and outline the things we cannot that will affect our equipment loadout. This is an example of what I would define as the problem.
Problem: Move 5 kilometers, on foot, carrying all necessary equipment throughout varying levels and types of terrain, stopping sporadically to engage targets of unknown type, size, distance and number.
 
Second: Knowns/Unkowns
Now we can begin to outline issues that we have with this that will drive our preparation. First I like to address the "knowns". Thinking on the things that we truly know helps us to orient ourselves productively right off the bat.
Knowns:
All targets will be engaged with a centerfire rifle and/or pistol
Said rifle, pistol, equipment and ammunition must be carried throughout the entire course (safely!)
Match is run rain or shine
Location of the course
Varying terrain both on stable and unstable ground
Weapons must not be loaded until told to do so
May not rearrange gear once arriving at stage
 
Unknowns:
Total number of targets
Distance to individual targets
Type or variance of obstacles on course
 
These are just examples. I would keep record of them. As you continue planning, reference your knowns and unknowns. Its possible that some new data has emerged and you can now either fill a hole or verify a previous unknown. After defining what knowns and unknowns that we can, we will begin our initial planning process. For this situation it will mostly involve equipment selection. In order to do this it might be necessary to make assumptions. Assumptions are something that we will assume to be true in order to effectively plan for the event. You can use many things to make you assumptions, but they should be logical. Prior experience in the area, data gathered from research or commone sense are all ways of coming to assumptions. For example, as a competitor I noticed that Matt is involved in this match. I also know that Matt previously ran a match on the same property. Lets go back and review Matt's match with a thread located on this very forum. After reading I make a couple of assumptions.
 
Assumptions:
I will get very dirty
I will engage targets with weapons that are not mine
 
There are many other examples, but these two will drive my planning. My first assumption will lead me to plan for a way to keep my equipment from being affected by my environment. It would really suck to drag all that ammo across the course just to have it fail because you didn't have a way of keeping your rifle from getting totally destroyed. Our second assumption could possibly drive our trainup. Perhaps your current eyewear provide no issues when shooting through a reddot optic but are horrendous when trying to shoot from a.... let's just say iron-sight AK47...hypothetically. This might drive you to carry more/different equipment.
 
After assumptions, knowns and unknowns are complete you should have a fairly solid list of all the equipment that you need to bring with you. Now that brings us to the part most people were waiting on.....How the hell do you carry all of it, without just stuffing it into a backpack?
 
Once you have all of your necessary equipment decided on, if you can collect it into one space. The best way to do this is to physically evaluate what all you have. After that I like to separate my equipment into different tiers. For the purpose of this match it will be slightly different from how we would plan, but still very similar.
 
Tier 1 - This will be stuff loaded directly onto my body sans stuff on a chest rig (if one is used). For my purposes this is all the equipment including my clothes, or equipment carried by my clothes and all the equipment on my belt, whether using some type of pistol belt or rigging everything up to a sturdy trouser belt. Based off of our knowns, unknowns and assumptions we can plan what needs to be at this tier of gear. This is all equipment that I need rapid access too. This is stuff that I will use first during the course of fire and then topped off out of my bag afterwards. If I were to run this match my loadout would look something like this:
PLACE HOLDER FOR PICTURE
Combat Pant (ie Crye, Patagonia, or cheap ass cargo pants) - Something that will dry quickly if I happen to get wet or super muddy. Plenty of pockets for storing dope cards, snacks,etc
Short sleeve outdoor shirt - I prefer short sleeve if the weather allows and I think I might get wet. I don't see the need in this situation to go around wearing your long sleeve Crye combat top. Your friends really don't think its as cool as you do. If you deem it necessary, then by all means, CM. If not I like something with a couple of pockets up top, and something that will also dry fast. You know, IF I get wet.
Volund Gear Inner Belt - Velcro lined inner belt. Same as standard competition inner belt but with a G-Hook instead of just velcro for retention
Volund Gear Outter belt - This goes over the outter belt. Extremely more lo-profile than your standard "battle belt" as well as more rigid. Not as likely to get hung up on obstacle or move around. There are many systems like it, but this one is AWESOME! On this belt I would have my pistol holster, 1-2 rifle mag pouch with some form of active retention, 2 pistol mag pouches with some form of active retention and dump pouch. I also keep a multi-tool on my belt to the rear of holster as well as a med pouch. The multi-tool is a disaster mitigater, so I want it as fast as possible when there is a bad situation. The med pouch is just a good idea to train with but not necessary for this match. If you use one in your current career field, this is a good place to put it along with the others I'll mention later. I don't always wear a full-on pistol belt, but when I do...it looks a lot like this
Eyepro - Better worn than carried. If the route takes you through the woods, taking a stick to the dome is a real possibility. I could see stowing your ear pro between stages, but I'd keep that eye pro on your head.
 
 
Tier 2 - This is how you carry your immediate surplus. For most guys this is going to look like a chest rack, but there are other creative ways to address it. I would use a chest rack because its A) What I know B ) Reinforces my work loadout and C ) The only other creative way I can personally think of is stuffing #### in your pockets or carrying a second bag. I did think of just loading 90% of my stuff in a bag, and then topping my belt off between stages but I think the chest rack works best for me. Here is what my loadout would look like:
PLACE HOLDER FOR PICTURE
A relatively small rig is all that is really needed, especially without the requirement to carry a radio or first aid. The first mistake most people make in a chest rack is trying to bring a double basic load, along with a bunch of other unnecessary stuff. There are way better ways to carry all that stuff in your bag, where it carries on your body way better than up front on your chest. Keep it light. On the rack that I will post photos of I am carrying 3 mags, a radio pouch, a med pouch, and a GP pouch. One creative way that I found to carry my GP pouch is with the Haley Strategic Multi-Mission Hanger Pouch. The pouch uses velcro, found on most chest racks these days, and hangs down. It's actually pretty great on the comfort level and doesn't bounce around the family jewels as much as most would guess when looking at it. It can be removed easily when not needed, stays where its supposed to when you do, and can be pulled off if you need to work out of it when using it as a back up medical pouch or weapons repair kit pouch. If you don't have a need to carry a radio or med kit in your daily life, then you could absolutely carry everything you need to shoot this match effectively on what most would call a micro rig. Other brands I really like for the appropriate size of kit are the Haley Strategic D3CR, HSGI AO Small Chest rig, and really anything from Mayflower. All of these kits also integrate seamlessly into some great body armor setups with quick clips. If building your own kit, for mag pouches I would use something with a retaining band, especially for this match. We could debate the effectiveness of passive retention all night. When there are unknowns involved, active retention is often best. For a GP pouch, generally go smaller than you think you need. If you get a big one, you will just stuff it with everything you think you need. You don't. You really don't. What I would really get away from is anything with the words "thigh rig" in it. They are rarely the appropriate piece of kit for anyone, are often set up incorrectly, and hinder movement extremely. If its not on your belt ready to feed the gun, its in the chest rig waiting, or in the pack.....
 
Tier 3 - Your non-immediate surplus equipment. This will be everything else you have left. This often does require some creativity in housing. If you throw it all in a pack, chances are whatever is on the bottom you will need first and rapidly. Also, just throwing everything into the bag doesn't carry very well. Heavy items will all eventually end up on the bottom and create an awful sensation that can lead to lower back pain as you run. The solution for this, unfortunately, often ends up being: buy the right piece of equipment for the job. Some good rules of thumb here are similar to the chest rack. Don't buy something huge. Look at your physical load out after gathering all your equipment. Set aside what is carried and worn on your person, belt or chest rig. Its possible all that is in your bag is backup batteries, spare ear pro, and your filled mags. In that case, pick the smallest surplus carrying system you can and go to work. I'll post pictures of bags that I have found helpful. Things I would consider: If you have this awesome bailout bag in your closet or truck that you have carefully pieced together and is the envy of all of your friends; Then bring it out and drag it through the mud. Use this opportunity to test your equipment, training or plans for either.

[Matt in TN]

Alright - we're less than two weeks out.  And we have a few slots still left open.  It's not too late to sign up!

For those of you who have trained your whole lives for something like this, this match will be awesome! You will finally have a place you can put all of your skills together in a match that plays to your strengths, and you'll feel like a thoroughbred finally set free to run.

For those of you who have NEVER attempted anything like this, are intimidated by all of the crazy workouts posted here, and are having severe second thoughts lately - it will be even better. Whatever you do, JUST DON'T QUIT. The satisfaction and self-image you will get from just finishing this course will stay with you forever, and is something no one can ever take away from you. Many people have found matches like these to be a turning point in their lives, and in a year or two you may not even recognize the person you have become. Just remember - for every person you see pass you, there is someone behind you wishing they could keep up with you.
And before ANYONE judges anyone else as being "too slow, too fat, or too lazy" - bite your tongue and listen to their story first. Across the country at matches like these we've had people recovering from recent strokes, heart attacks, cancer, pregnancy, amputations, and any other issue you can think of; just because "F#$K CANCER", that's why! Give them an encouraging word when you pass them - it really makes a difference.

Even better - if you pass someone really struggling on the course: finish your race, set down your gear, and run back out to find that person. You can run beside them and offer them all the words of support and encouragement that you can think of - you just can't physically help them in any way. I would love nothing better than to see the last and slowest competitor of the day, trudging their way up the last hill, accompanied by 40 of their newest friends. Help me make that happen.

Let's do this.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Matt in TN

[Matt in TN]

Ok folks - Saturday is officially "sold out" now!  There are still plenty of slots open for Sunday's match (shooting stages only - no run or obstacles).  You might as well sign up now and book a room for Saturday night -  you know you'll only want a hot shower and a few beers after Saturday (as opposed to a long drive home), and then a 2nd chance at those stages on Sunday after all the "man, I wish I would have..." talk over drinks after the match.

Some pretty cool stats from registration:

91 total competitors
35 are active duty 5th Group
60% are signed up for Combat Class

This last one blows my mind - we've had a handful of nuts run "heavy" at other matches for various trophies or bragging rights.  Maybe 5 people at most.  This match has FIFTY FOUR!  I am REALLY looking forward to seeing all these maniacs work through this course!

And I'd still encourage anyone interested to sign up for Saturday and get on the waiting list.  We had several last minute cancellations in March, so it wouldn't surprise me if we had a few here too.

[Matt in TN]

Those who know Rockcastle have already figured this out from the course map - but for everyone else: Stage 3 occurs in the complete darkness of a cave. YOU WILL NEED A LIGHT. If you show up at the cave without a light, you will not be allowed to enter the cave and will zero the stage. You cannot borrow a light from a buddy or an RO - you must carry it for the entire race.
 
Weaponlights are fine to use while shooting, but there are portions of the cave you must navigate BEFORE you shoot, and if you unholster your loaded pistol and start waving it around (with other competitors and ROs in front of you) to see where you're going, you'll get a Match DQ and be sent home. Plan accordingly.
 
Here's a video from the March match that shows the basics. The actual shooting portion of this match will be different than March, so don't let that get into your head!

 

[Matt in TN]

Another reminder - you will need eye and ear protection for this match.  Yes, running with glasses on sucks.  Either deal with it, or take the extra time to take your glasses off when you run and put them on before you shoot.  

We just have too many opportunities for ricochets and plenty of loud noises to let this go.  If you show up to a shooting stage without eye and ear protection you will not be allowed to shoot and receive a zero score for the stage.

[Matt in TN]

Another reminder for newbies:  you will need a STOPWATCH of some sort.  There's a good chance when you run up to a stage there will be someone shooting there already (and quite possibly a line of people waiting to shoot).  At that point, the RO will tell you to start your wait time.  Start your stopwatch, and let it run until it's your turn to move forward.  During your wait time you are NOT allowed to sit, take off your gear, eat, drink, or do anything but just stand there exactly as you ran up - it's like a "timeout" and it should not give you any advantage over those who didn't have a wait time.

This wait time may occur in different places depending on the stage - sometimes before the obstacle (so you have to beat the obstacle and then immediately start shooting), sometimes right before the shooting.  The RO will guide you for those details.

[Matt in TN]

Because the entire point of the weekend was remembering those fallen and trying to understand just a little of what our 5th Special Forces Group brothers and their families go through, I'm taking a different tack with the match videos this time. It is beyond difficult to try to summarize in a few short minutes the amazing and humbling experiences of this weekend, but this is my effort so others may try to understand.

Here is Stage 1: AL JAFR

 

[Matt in TN]

All the pictures my awesome wife took are now uploaded on Flickr. Feel free to use them however you wish, but please give a photo credit to Lisa Stennett if you do.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lisastennett/albums/with/72157688915817325

[Matt in TN]

Here's Stage 2:  Bucket
 

 

[gjohnsoniv]

To those who didn't show, you missed a really fun match.

[Matt in TN]

8 hours ago, gjohnsoniv said:

To those who didn't show, you missed a really fun match.

Thanks man - it was great to meet and shoot with you!

[Matt in TN]

Stage 3:  Tora Bora

 

[Matt in TN]

I've been to a lot of matches over the years, but I've NEVER called in an air strike and had artillery simulators going off around me while shooting difficult targets.

 

Keep in mind when this really happened it was dark (around midnight), there were 20-30 bad guys instead of 5, and they were dressed just like the good guys and wearing suicide vests.

 

And that 60% of the competitors failed to finish this course of fire that was MUCH watered down from the real thing. "We're not worthy!" doesn't even begin to cover it.

 

Here's Stage 4: At Tanf

 

[Matt in TN]

While we were prepping for match, one of the 5th Group guys at one point said, almost as an aside,

"You haven't seen Legion of Brothers?"

"No" I said. "Is it pretty accurate?"

"Yeah" he said.

As with most things, I really didn't understand what he was saying at the time. I thought it was something like Blackhawk Down - maybe a little Hollywood'd up recreation of an event with some actors. But if he said it was pretty accurate maybe I'd watch it and be entertained while I learned a little bit more about what they did. I was wrong.

This is a documentary - with the actual guys and their families involved in the stories. I finished it tonight, and it is so much more than I first thought it was.

Buy it and watch it. We will never understand like those who were there, but I feel it is our duty as civilians to TRY to understand and not let all of what these guys and their families go through just get swept under the rug while the next "So You Think You Can Dance" episode comes on. It's sad that I'd never even heard of this movie until it was mentioned in passing just by happenstance.

With all they have sacrificed, the least we can do is try to understand and remember.

https://www.amazon.com/Legion-Brothers-Nutsch-Pennington-Amerine/dp/B06Y4Q213B

[grasshoppa]

And there's privileged millionaires taking knees during the national anthem I have stopped watching the NFL completely

[Matt in TN]

25 minutes ago, grasshoppa said:

And there's privileged millionaires taking knees during the national anthem I have stopped watching the NFL completely

Amen, brother.

[Matt in TN]

Because I'm nothing but a giant nerd, here are some stats about the 5k Match only - I didn't collect any data on the 2-Gun Shooters Sunday:

The lightest weight carried was 13lbs. By percent of bodyweight, 5.8% was the lowest. 76lbs was the most weight carried, and by % bodyweight 44.2% was the highest.

The fastest runner carried 42lbs, or 25.5% of his bodyweight. Yes, a Combat Class guy smoked every single one of us!

The average runner carried 42lbs or 22% of their bodyweight. The average .308 guy carried 44lbs or 22% of their bodyweight. 37 out of 69 shooters finished in Combat Class (54%).

The average female carried 23lbs or 17% of her bodyweight. However, I have to point out that the LIGHTEST competitor weighed in at 113lbs, signed up for Race Class, and told me multiple times she was just out there to have fun and that it sure was a beautiful day for a walk in the woods. When I did the math I found she carried 26.6% of her bodyweight over that crazy course and I don't think I EVER saw her without a smile on her face.

72% of the competitors DNF'd Stage 4 (on Saturday - the 60% DNF rate I mentioned with the video was both days combined). 51% of the competitors DNF'd Stage 5. Only 12% DNF'd Stage 3, 4% DNF'd Stage 2, and every single person finished Stage 1.

And here is the firearm data:

[Matt in TN]

Stage 5: Baqubah

Keep in mind when you're remembering how badly this stage kicked your ass, SSG Miller dragged SIX men over ONE HUNDRED meters to safety. We dragged one guy only 30 meters. The stage design actually started out with two dummy drags, but after trying it we realized not one person would finish if we didn't cut it back somewhere.

Sorry for the foggy video - when I really started sweating between stages 1 and 2 my camera lens started to fog over. And it just got worse as the match progressed.