Cheatham county cops tasing the hell out of someone

[Sam1]

1 hour ago, Dolomite_supafly said:

I would also like to hear how long he sat in that chair. I am pretty sure the federal guidelines for use of a restraint chair limits the time to two hours. That is unless the inmate is continuing to do things to harm themselves then the time can be extended. I would be willing to bet this inmate sat in that chair most of the night.

From what I read, he was in the chair for 3 hours before they started hitting him with the taser hard.  Not sure how long he was in it after the festivities started.

Another trend I noticed while reading around on it was that the overwhelming defense that is being used in this case is (effectively) "but the cops have to deal with bad people all the time".  WTF does that have to do with anything?  Not much going for them on a strong defense.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Sam1

[bersaguy]

I guess most folks here are not familiar with Cheatham County like I am since I lived down there when we moved he when I was 17. Cheatham County is one of those "Good Ole Boys" counties. The sheriff back when I first moved here had been the Sheriff about 30 years and everyone called him by his first name which was Les. the folks in Cheatham county knew him well and all knew when he said something he ment business but they also said he was very fair to all a well. (example) State Stove water heater company located in Ashland City and about 95% of the people employed there lived in Cheatham County. If Les had a complaint filed against an employee there he would go to the plant and tell the guard at the front gate to tell So-N-So he needs to come by the office on his way home from work today!!!! If the guy showed up Les would have a talk with the guy and tell him to quit beating his wife or quit doing what he was called for and send them on. If teh guy did not show up, the next day Les would go to the plant, walk inside, walk up to the guy he was looking for , cuff him and drag him out of the plant. I'm not sure what happened to the guy but you can bet next time Les told him to stop by he did.

Les finally retired and another sheriff was elected and he was a first name sheriff also named Dorris. He didn't change much from the way Les ran the county Sheriffs office. Still a "Good ole Boys" club of deputies. That was until one of his duties was murdered during a burglary and was killed by being shot in the back  by a shotgun using oobuck and was shot three time cause they found 3 empty casings on the ground by a lookout watching for the police. At that point the investigation was out of the Sheriffs control and was being handled at State and Federal levels. I knew the deputy that was killed personally and he was a really nice young man.

I honestly thought all the good ole boys club was gone when that sheriff passed away and an ex state Trooper was elected to the Sheriff but that was short lived. Next election another good ole boy was elected and is still there at least till we see where this mess goes they have now.

Just thought I would give some back ground into that counties law enforcement policies!!.............................

Edited July 31, 2017 by bersaguy

[monkeylizard]

16 hours ago, Erik88 said:

I heard about this on the news recently and couldn't believe that cops have the ability to seize assets based on their belief that someone was guilty of a crime. What happened to due process? How did this even become a possibility?

You can thank Ronald Reagan and the GOP for that. His war on drugs and the Comprehensive Crime Control Act that was a part of it brought civil forfeiture back into vogue in the USA. It really incentivized local and state LEOs to take advantage of it. There's nothing quite like guilty until proven innocent, is there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States#Legal_origins

http://www.aclu-tn.org/policing-profit-shocking-cost-civil-asset-forfeiture/

News Channel 5's Phil Wwilliams did a big expose series on this several years ago.

Here's one for $22,000 http://www.newschannel5.com/story/18241221/man-loses-22000-in-new-policing-for-profit-case

Or how about $160,000: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/22/tn-hearings-demonstrates-_n_4323673.html

Edited July 31, 2017 by monkeylizard

[bersaguy]

This is an article I found about Frankie Jordans murder but didn't know his killers had already been turned loose even though they were sentenced to life +10 years!!!!

http://www.wsmv.com/story/16677454/brothers-convicted-of-murdering-deputy-set-free-family-keeps-fighting

I think they should still be in prison which such a murder as bad as this was. Frankie was struck 19 times in the back by buckshot. There are also many descrepences in the news article about who did the actual shooting.

[MacGyver]

I hope that in my lifetime we see a more jurisdictions move to a view of restorative justice as opposed to the punitive vision that most use today.  If from nothing other than a pragmatic perspective - what we've got now clearly isn't working.

From a faith perspective - which informs a lot of my thought on the matter - if we believe people can be redeemed, then our prisons need to model that, too.  Yes, there are people who need to be in jail.  But, there are a lot of people who should not - and their families and communities are suffering systemically as a result.

North Dakota is trying an interesting model right now:  http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/07/north-dakota-norway-prisons-experiment/

[bersaguy]

28 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I hope that in my lifetime we see a more jurisdictions move to a view of restorative justice as opposed to the punitive vision that most use today.  If from nothing other than a pragmatic perspective - what we've got now clearly isn't working.

From a faith perspective - which informs a lot of my thought on the matter - if we believe people can be redeemed, then our prisons need to model that, too.  Yes, there are people who need to be in jail.  But, there are a lot of people who should not - and their families and communities are suffering systemically as a result.

North Dakota is trying an interesting model right now:  http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/07/north-dakota-norway-prisons-experiment/

I have never thought that all crimes should fall under the same level of punishment but then many times I also see that by being easy on some that break the law causes them to only get out and in turn break the law again and again. I worked in corrections for a few years in the Illinois  Department of Corrections and was stationed at the Joliet Prison Facility which was where at the time was a the worst of the worst and I think I saw the worst of the worst many times come out of the inmates. We experienced 3 all out riots while I was working there and there was no way of being nice to that class of inmates regardless of how much you reached out to listen and work with them...................JMHO

[Ugly]

The punishment should fit the crime. If you murder someone, you should get the death penalty. 

What we have certainly isn't working and we have the technology today to reduce if not eliminate false convictions. 

Being a lifelong criminal should not be a way of life and the prisons shouldn't be making criminals worse. 

I certainly don't have any answers but am steadfast in the believe murderers shouldn't get a second chance. Their victims don't. 

[bersaguy]

27 minutes ago, Ugly said:

The punishment should fit the crime. If you murder someone, you should get the death penalty. 

What we have certainly isn't working and we have the technology today to reduce if not eliminate false convictions. 

Being a lifelong criminal should not be a way of life and the prisons shouldn't be making criminals worse. 

I certainly don't have any answers but am steadfast in the believe murderers shouldn't get a second chance. Their victims don't. 

I am a firm beliver that if you take a life and it is proven beyond all doubts that you should be put to death but only after all forensic tests have not clear you. This idea of givinga person all these appeals and letting them live on death row for 10 + years needs to be removed. Richard Speck murdered 6 student nurses in Chicago back in the 60's and their was zero doubt he did it yet he had some many appeals that he died of old age on death row awaiting execution. Zero justice was given to those 6 young girls he violently slaughtered. Those are things to need to be stopped and sentences need to be carried out. Those brothers that killed Frankie Jordan should still be in prison as they all had police records for many crimes and prior convictions!!!! I don't care how much the shooter said he is sorry will not bring Frankie back or give his family any comfort.

[MacGyver]

Forget the evidence that taking a case all the way from trial to death row to the execution chamber is way more expensive than maintaining a prisoner for life without parole.

Forget the moral arguments - for or against the death penalty.

With the exonerations we've seen over the last few years regarding new evidence, tainted forensics and dishonest prosecutions, I simply do not trust our government to kill people.  

Again, there are people who should almost certainly spend the rest of their days where they cannot do harm to the rest of the population.  But, even in those cases I'd argue against the death penalty.

At some point it's not about them - it's about us as a society.

[gjohnsoniv]

This is why people hate cops right here. Yeah I know the 10% of ####birds screw it up for everyone else, but if relations between the public and cops are going to improve, the cop community needs to condemn this. Unlike the usual circle the wagons "didn't do anything wrong" attitude you normally see. There isn't a single justifiable reason for this to have occurred and it's disappointing to see so-called protectors of the community acting like savages. 

[monkeylizard]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

With the exonerations we've seen over the last few years regarding new evidence, tainted forensics and dishonest prosecutions, I simply do not trust our government to kill people. 

I think that there was on an old episode of The Simpsons where Homer drove past a sign that read "Welcome to Texas. 3,086 executions for 2,267 crimes" or something like that.

Edited July 31, 2017 by monkeylizard

[JAB]

25 minutes ago, gjohnsoniv said:

This is why people hate cops right here. Yeah I know the 10% of ####birds screw it up for everyone else, but if relations between the public and cops are going to improve, the cop community needs to condemn this. Unlike the usual circle the wagons "didn't do anything wrong" attitude you normally see. There isn't a single justifiable reason for this to have occurred and it's disappointing to see so-called protectors of the community acting like savages. 

I always think along the same lines whenever someone points out that the majority of cops aren't like this.  Sure, maybe only 10% are corrupt or just outright bad cops (although I think the number is probably a little higher) but what percentage of the ostensibly 'good' cops look the other way when crap like this happens?  What percentage of the 'good' cops - as you say - circle the wagons and try to defend their behavior just because they are 'a brother in blue'?  As Chucktshoes alluded earlier, what percentage is more interested in loyalty to their profession than in actually upholding the law even if it means 'ratting out' and condemning the behavior of other officers?  And if the 'good cops' know that these 'bad cops' are engaging in such abuses of power and they don't say anything then are they truly 'good cops'?  Honestly, I would say, "No, they aren't."

Now, do I believe that all cops know beyond a shadow of a doubt that other cops are abusing power, etc. and yet say nothing?  No.  Do I believe that there truly are 'good cops'?  Yes, absolutely.  However, I think the kneejerk reaction by other cops and by some members of the public to automatically defend the cops no matter what is a dangerous trend that is not good for our society or, honestly, for those truly good cops that do exist.  One, major problem is that pointing out these things or any, other failure on the part of law enforcement is often met with claims of 'cop bashing' or complete and utter B.S. such as, "Well, you wouldn't want to do it," rather than being taken as honest criticism of behavior that is not up to the standard to which officers of the law should be held. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by JAB

[bersaguy]

Do I believe that most police officers are good Cops? Yes! Do I believe that there are bad cops?  Yes!!! now with that said there is something that folks probably don't think about when they say that cops circle the wagons around the brothers in Blue. Yes they do! But has anyone ever wondered why they do that? Has anyone ever wondered why there are very few whistle blowers in the police forces across this country?  If you blow the whistle on a fellow officer for an infraction but he is allowed to remain on the force and happens to have many friends and something comes down and you, the whistle blower needs back up help in a dangerous even life threatening situation how much help can you expect and how fast will that help arrive?  I think that is why even good cops circle the wagons but that is JMHO and I wonder just how many times that has happened when an officer needed help that never showed or showed to late.

I think circling the wagons might mean self preservation for many officers even when they don't agree with it!!!! . Do I agree with it NO!! but I understand it to a point..............JMHO

Edited July 31, 2017 by bersaguy

[Capbyrd]

On 7/30/2017 at 0:19 PM, Ugly said:

The bad thing about those lawsuits is the impact on the taxpayer!

i don't know how big that county is but I bet they don't have millions sitting around to handover.

 

 

On 7/30/2017 at 0:57 PM, Sam1 said:

Yeah, I don't know how to handle those types of settlements but it would be nice if the individuals were responsible instead of the organization.  I'm sure there are a lot of good cops there that are going to feel the pinch too, when it was just a handful of people involved.

 

As Dolomite previously pointed out, the city or county or whoever will have insurance to cover any settlement that is reached.  

 

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Erik88 said:

I've been seeing things in a different light lately. On Friday I was driving home from work and 3 cop cars from Crossville came up beside me. These guys were 60 miles outside their jurisdiction yet they were doing 15 over the posted speed limit and tailgating (intimidating) every vehicle until they moved out of their way. 

Imagine if one of us came up behind a cop and rode their ass just to get them to move over. 

 

They weren't 60 miles outside of their jurisdiction.  At least that's my understanding.  A TN POST certified officer can operate anywhere within the state boundaries.  I could be wrong about that but I've been told that by several officers.  

 

 

 

18 hours ago, WindHawk said:

First, let me clearly emphasize that I do not approve of mistreatment of individuals, whether under arrest or not.  However, there may be more to this story than has been told.  The Tennessean's local paper, the Ashland City Times is reporting the following: 

"Norris was arrested Nov. 3, 2016 and charged with felony manufacturing/possession of marijuana for resale, possession of drug paraphernalia, theft under $500, five counts of possession of a prohibited weapon.

He was charged felony vandalism of over $1,000 and simple assault Nov. 7 while still incarcerated.

Norris was originally suspected of stealing a semi-automatic rifle and Sheriff's deputies received information he was going to use the weapon on any law enforcement who tried to arrest him, according to Sheriff Mike Breedlove."

Someone I know with corrections experience pointed out a couple of things to me.  The $1,000 felony vandalism charge is typical for damaging/destroying the fire protection sprinkler in a cell.  Might be what happened, maybe not.  Nov 5, 2016 was on Saturday, which is also the date of the videos: the charges would have been placed on the next business day, i.e. Nov 7th.

As always, I feel we can full confidence in the news media's reports.  In this case, they have the individual as 20 years old, or 19 years old, or an 18 year old juvenile.  He's reported to be from Tennessee.  Or Texas.  Take your pick.   

Again, I'm not taking any position on this incident, only suggesting that the full story needs to be uncovered and, only then, should judgements be made. 

None of what you said makes a bit of difference.  No amount of backstory or anything else changes the fact that they are torturing a man who is restrained.  

 

 

[Ugly]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

Forget the evidence that taking a case all the way from trial to death row to the execution chamber is way more expensive than maintaining a prisoner for life without parole.

Forget the moral arguments - for or against the death penalty.

With the exonerations we've seen over the last few years regarding new evidence, tainted forensics and dishonest prosecutions, I simply do not trust our government to kill people.  

Again, there are people who should almost certainly spend the rest of their days where they cannot do harm to the rest of the population.  But, even in those cases I'd argue against the death penalty.

At some point it's not about them - it's about us as a society.

People are the problem, lawyers specifically. There is no reason in the world someone sentenced to death should cost us another penny much less more than someone with a life sentence. 

To alleviate possible wrong convictions, start with absolute convictions.

Like the jack wagon that stabbed my buddies kid in the chest (heart, died on the spot) with an ice pick in front of witnesses. Not only did he not get convicted, they dropped charges so he would rat someone else out for another crime. 

If I was in charge,  he'd have ahad a speedy trial. Found guilty if the witnesses were 100% accurate, he was a bouncer checking id's, lots of people around. 

If convicted let him spend the night in jail, hang him out back the next day. Period. 

absolutely ridiculous to sentence someone to life inmo. 

Especially when we let them out!!!!!

Edited July 31, 2017 by Ugly

[gjohnsoniv]

19 hours ago, WindHawk said:

First, let me clearly emphasize that I do not approve of mistreatment of individuals, whether under arrest or not.  However, there may be more to this story than has been told.  The Tennessean's local paper, the Ashland City Times is reporting the following: 

"Norris was arrested Nov. 3, 2016 and charged with felony manufacturing/possession of marijuana for resale, possession of drug paraphernalia, theft under $500, five counts of possession of a prohibited weapon.

He was charged felony vandalism of over $1,000 and simple assault Nov. 7 while still incarcerated.

Norris was originally suspected of stealing a semi-automatic rifle and Sheriff's deputies received information he was going to use the weapon on any law enforcement who tried to arrest him, according to Sheriff Mike Breedlove."

Someone I know with corrections experience pointed out a couple of things to me.  The $1,000 felony vandalism charge is typical for damaging/destroying the fire protection sprinkler in a cell.  Might be what happened, maybe not.  Nov 5, 2016 was on Saturday, which is also the date of the videos: the charges would have been placed on the next business day, i.e. Nov 7th.

As always, I feel we can full confidence in the news media's reports.  In this case, they have the individual as 20 years old, or 19 years old, or an 18 year old juvenile.  He's reported to be from Tennessee.  Or Texas.  Take your pick.   

Again, I'm not taking any position on this incident, only suggesting that the full story needs to be uncovered and, only then, should judgements be made. 

What happened before? It's irrelevant. The guy poses no threat.  It doesn't matter what the paper says when there is video evidence of what happened. Nothing they did was justified in the slightest. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by gjohnsoniv

[Ugly]

On July 30, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Ugly said:

The bad thing about those lawsuits is the impact on the taxpayer!

i don't know how big that county is but I bet they don't have millions sitting around to handover.

 

There is only so much insurance coverage. 

The city in his case only had $500k, they settled for over $7mil.

taxes went up to cover the rest.

http://www.mcall.com/news/all-a1_5settlementapr01-story.html

[gjohnsoniv]

29 minutes ago, Ugly said:

There is only so much insurance coverage. 

The city in his case only had $500k, they settled for over $7mil.

taxes went up to cover the rest.

http://www.mcall.com/news/all-a1_5settlementapr01-story.html

I'm not arguing with you, but it seems like that should be a kick in the ass to the public to start getting some better people in uniform.

[walthermitty]

It is very nice to read (on a conservative forum) sane, considered thoughts that include respect for civil rights and due process when the victim is not someone like themselves.  Correct me, if I'm wrong, but I don't think the TN Constitution allows for any type of "punishment".  (The death penalty is a legislative instrument.)  In fact, prisoners are supposed to be safe.  I think THE purpose for incarceration is supposed to be to remove threats from society.  Rehabilitation is more of a community based concept?

Someone mentioned that there is nothing that can be done for a murder victim.  I agree.  So, the death penalty is maybe nothing more than retribution?  An "eye for an eye" is not a legal concept.  Courts exist to remove emotions from the equation so that we don't have a society made up of a lot of different Hatfields and McCoys.

Having said that, I propose that incarceration be purged of any amenities (period.)  No commissary, cigarettes, tv, etc.  I bet that would not be pleasant for life, without parole.  Prisoners need motivation to get out and stay out of jail.  Guards need to be well trained and paid properly, given security clearances, wear cameras (with penalties for it not being activated,) and held to the highest standard, like any officer.  But, I'm guessing taxes would never be raised for anything that isn't "for the kids."  Yea, I'm a cynic, just like everyone else.

Too many have become intolerant of anyone else's view, IMHO.

Edited July 31, 2017 by walthermitty

[Sam1]

37 minutes ago, walthermitty said:

An "eye for an eye" is not a legal concept.  Courts exist to remove emotions from the equation so that we don't have a society made up of a lot of different Hatfields and McCoys.

unfortunately, the eye for an eye 'concept' is applied in the opposite manner for which it was intended.  back a few days ago when they implemented it, it was put into place to limit the maximum punishment, not to make it equal.  it began because the people in power started to punish people excessively i.e. confiscating someone's home because they stole a loaf of bread or whatever.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Sam1

[DaveTN]

I don’t support the death penalty for lot of reasons.

The first and foremost reason is my religious beliefs. You don’t get to kill someone who is not an immediate threat; that applies to the state as well as an individual.

I also think they should suffer for the crime of murder. I would rather have the death penalty than spend life in prison.

When Illinois did away with the death penalty they were faced a stack of cases where it had been proven the incarcerated didn’t commit the murder. How many mistakes are okay?

The costs are ridiculous. Someone fighting for their life deserves the best attorneys available; not a Public defender. Those attorneys aren’t cheap.

Now back to the topic at hand…

4 hours ago, gjohnsoniv said:

This is why people hate cops right here. Yeah I know the 10% of ####birds screw it up for everyone else, but if relations between the public and cops are going to improve, the cop community needs to condemn this. Unlike the usual circle the wagons "didn't do anything wrong" attitude you normally see. There isn't a single justifiable reason for this to have occurred and it's disappointing to see so-called protectors of the community acting like savages. 

Cops do condemn this. I am shocked that the Sheriff is saying these guys were following establish procedures; I doubt that. Like us, there aren’t many cops living at the foot of the cross. They make mistakes. Some big, some not so big. Hurting or killing someone that is trying to hurt them is as acceptable for cops as it is for us. Period. But that is not we what are seeing here.

Relations between the cops and the public are not that bad. Sure, plenty of people hate cops and are going to whine about everything they do. But just like bad cops; those guys don’t represent the majority. You have to look at each individual case, as every one is different.

Oh and I couldn’t care less about property seizures from drug dealers. They are the reason your houses get burglarized and your cars stolen. It’s just common sense to me that there would be a requirement that it be approved by a Judge and if there isn’t a conviction within a reasonable amount of time the property is returned.

Edited July 31, 2017 by DaveTN

[gjohnsoniv]

2 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t support the death penalty for lot of reasons.

The first and foremost reason is my religious beliefs. You don’t get to kill someone who is not an immediate threat; that applies to the state as well as an individual.

I also think they should suffer for the crime of murder. I would rather have the death penalty than spend life in prison.

When Illinois did away with the death penalty they were faced a stack of cases where it had been proven the incarcerated didn’t commit the murder. How many mistakes are okay?

The costs are ridiculous. Someone fighting for their life deserves the best attorneys available; not a Public defender. Those attorneys aren’t cheap.

Now back to the topic at hand…

Cops do condemn this. I am shocked that the Sheriff is saying these guys were following establish procedures; I doubt that. Like us, there aren’t many cops living at the foot of the cross. They make mistakes. Some big, some not so big. Hurting or killing someone that is trying to hurt them is as acceptable for cops as it is for us. Period. But that is not we what are seeing here.

Relations between the cops and the public are not that bad. Sure, plenty of people hate cops and are going to whine about everything they do. But just like bad cops; those guys don’t represent the majority. You have to look at each individual case, as every one is different.

If you noticed, I did clarify that I'm not blaming everyone, it's the 10% that cause everyone else problems.  Yes, they're people like we all are, and mistakes happen. The difference is I don't generally have the capacity to screw someone's life up the way you can because you're in a bad mood with some punk smarting off at you and you can't control your temper. Nor can I shoot someone and claim "I heard a noise, got scared" and end up with a wrist slap and getting stuck behind a desk for a week.  Point being there are set standards and if you're going to enforce them you should be better than them. These guys don't meet that, nor does anyone else if this is "acceptable" and "following procedure."

Note, none of this is directed at you specifically and I'm not trying to slight you in any way. 

[Pain103]

 I just love coming to my favorite forum to read this. 

[Ugly]

2 hours ago, gjohnsoniv said:

I'm not arguing with you, but it seems like that should be a kick in the ass to the public to start getting some better people in uniform.

This case involved a complete slimeball lawyer. He was an ambulance chaser on a mission for $.

in fact he was so stand up, his brother died in a small plane crash and this guy forged a will! Of course he got caught. 

The mayor was/is a pansy he should've fought it and let it go to trial but caved. 

I don't agree with no knock warrants at all. I mean, is this America or not!

But the dude that got shot was a drug dealing scumbag. 

[gjohnsoniv]

9 minutes ago, Ugly said:

This case involved a complete slimeball lawyer. He was an ambulance chaser on a mission for $.

in fact he was so stand up, his brother died in a small plane crash and this guy forged a will! Of course he got caught. 

The mayor was/is a pansy he should've fought it and let it go to trial but caved. 

I don't agree with no knock warrants at all. I mean, is this America or not!

But the dude that got shot was a drug dealing scumbag. 

Funny how that works isn't it?