Cheatham county cops tasing the hell out of someone

[gregintenn]

50 minutes ago, Pain103 said:

 I just love coming to my favorite forum to read this. 

Just out of curiosity, what does your screen name "Pain103" infer?

[Pain103]

 It doesn't infer anything it's a word with three numbers after it. But if you really want to know how it came to be I made a old yahoo email to use that had the word pain in it while out due to an injury when a drunk driver hit me on a stop. The 103 is an old badge number. 

[gregintenn]

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, Pain103 said:

 I just love coming to my favorite forum to read this. 

Sometimes folks wish for a sarcasm font to ensure clarity of their statements. Sometimes that would be wholly superfluous. 

We've been here for about the same amount of time, so I will assume my views on law enforcement tactics and culture are not unknown to you. If you choose to dismiss what I have to say here because of that, so be it. However having been here as long as you have I will also assume that you are aware of how little tolerance TGODavid has for random and needless cop bashing. This is not that, because if it was I would imagine he would have stepped in long before now to handle matters as he, or other members of the moderating team are wont to do when it becomes an issue. I can think of many folks who received suspensions and permanent bans for cop bashing. This incident happened here in our state. The victim and the perpetrators are our neighbors, fellow Tennesseeans. Therefore this is a matter of great interest and concern for all of us. It is an important and relevant matter worthy of discussion. 

I know you're in LE, though I don't know the agency. I really hope your dismay at this discussion is due to fatigue from having heard so much about it already from your CoC and not at finding valid and justified criticism and anger at folks who abused the authority and trust placed in them. (I also hope that every LE agency in the state is emphasizing that this sort of behavior is wholly unacceptable because the alternative to that is wholly unacceptable.) I know that it's been a rough time for LE lately (and in the last couple of weeks especially) as a lot of negative stories have come to light recently that reflect badly on the profession. While the topic may be unpleasant for you, it is of merit and I think that if you chose to do so, you could add value to the discussion. 

[Sam1]

14 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

I will also assume that you are aware of how little tolerance TGODavid has for random and needless cop bashing. This is not that, because if it was I would imagine he would have stepped in long before now to handle matters as he, or other members of the moderating team are wont to do when it becomes an issue. 

Yeah, I'm the first guy to make fun of stupid criminals and lean heavily towards he side of LEO pretty much every time, in almost every situation.  This is a different scenario though, and I'm not blaming the police department, this is an issue with some out of control PEOPLE that just happen to be cops.

[gjohnsoniv]

26 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Sometimes folks wish for a sarcasm font to ensure clarity of their statements. Sometimes that would be wholly superfluous. 

We've been here for about the same amount of time, so I will assume my views on law enforcement tactics and culture are not unknown to you. If you choose to dismiss what I have to say here because of that, so be it. However having been here as long as you have I will also assume that you are aware of how little tolerance TGODavid has for random and needless cop bashing. This is not that, because if it was I would imagine he would have stepped in long before now to handle matters as he, or other members of the moderating team are wont to do when it becomes an issue. I can think of many folks who received suspensions and permanent bans for cop bashing. This incident happened here in our state. The victim and the perpetrators are our neighbors, fellow Tennesseeans. Therefore this is a matter of great interest and concern for all of us. It is an important and relevant matter worthy of discussion. 

I know you're in LE, though I don't know the agency. I really hope your dismay at this discussion is due to fatigue from having heard so much about it already from your CoC and not at finding valid and justified criticism and anger at folks who abused the authority and trust placed in them. (I also hope that every LE agency in the state is emphasizing that this sort of behavior is wholly unacceptable because the alternative to that is wholly unacceptable.) I know that it's been a rough time for LE lately (and in the last couple of weeks especially) as a lot of negative stories have come to light recently that reflect badly on the profession. While the topic may be unpleasant for you, it is of merit and I think that if you chose to do so, you could add value to the discussion. 

Well, I think you just said what we all wish could say with better clarity and eloquence.

[DaveTN]

 

10 hours ago, gjohnsoniv said:

 Nor can I shoot someone and claim "I heard a noise, got scared" and end up with a wrist slap and getting stuck behind a desk for a week.  

No one is behind a desk in the Justine Ruszczyk shooting. No one is trying to justify what he did (other than his lawyer). I suspect he will be in prison. The problem I see is that there is no way the investigation should take “months” as they are saying. If a citizen invoked their right to remain silent they would have been arrested; he should have been arrested as soon as he did that.

10 hours ago, gjohnsoniv said:

Note, none of this is directed at you specifically and I'm not trying to slight you in any way. 

I haven’t been a cop for many years and I don’t take it personally (unless of course it’s a personal attack on me). Anyone that reads my posts knows that I am on the side of the cops when they are right and I’m not when they are wrong. I wouldn’t want to be a cop now; but those willing to do the job have earned my respect until they do something to lose it. I have the same respect for law enforcement officers that I have for the military. I have served in both and I am proud of my service in both.

Edited August 1, 2017 by DaveTN

[monkeylizard]

15 hours ago, Sam1 said:

i.e. confiscating someone's home because they stole a loaf of bread or whatever.

Now they do it because someone thinks they might be involved in loaf larceny. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-04-18/local/me-24209_1_forfeiture-law

Edited August 1, 2017 by monkeylizard

[monkeylizard]

11 hours ago, Sam1 said:

I'm not blaming the police department, this is an issue with some out of control PEOPLE that just happen to be cops.

In most cases, that's where I land too. In this case, it's hard to feel that way after the Sheriff said what he said. Maybe it is a systemic problem in the whole department. I'm not saying every deputy. I'm saying something's wrong with the department, their hiring practices, their training materials and methods, their procedures, their patrol guide, etc. If what those deputies did was within department policy, then that's a serious problem which starts at the top.

Edited August 1, 2017 by monkeylizard

[MacGyver]

Worth considering in this argument - though it could be a thread in it's own right.  This article in the Times this morning mentions that of the 166 exonerations in 2016, 70 involved government or prosecutorial misconduct.  The case cited involves Shelby County District Attorney Amy Weirich - regarding a case that set her on her upward trajectory politically...

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/magazine/she-was-convicted-of-killing-her-mother-prosecutors-withheld-the-evidence-that-would-have-freed-her.html?referer=https://t.co/mlRL0Wmk5v?amp=1

[Dolomite_supafly]

11 hours ago, Sam1 said:

Yeah, I'm the first guy to make fun of stupid criminals and lean heavily towards he side of LEO pretty much every time, in almost every situation.  This is a different scenario though, and I'm not blaming the police department, this is an issue with some out of control PEOPLE that just happen to be cops.

The real problem is NOT the bad officers because there will ALWAYS be bad officers. It is not the administration because the majority of those people never leave their office and sure as hell never witness a bad cop doing bad cop things.The problem is all those good officers standing around doing nothing to stop the actions of the bad cop. The vast majority of cops are great people who only want to do good but they have a very hard time ratting out a fellow officer who is doing bad things.

1 minute ago, monkeylizard said:

Now they do it because someone thinks they might be involved in said loaf larceny. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-04-18/local/me-24209_1_forfeiture-law

Get caught with more than $10K and you will likely have that money stolen until you hire an attorney, go to court and prove the money wasn't from illegal drug sales. And all the while you have an officer giving his "expert" opinion that the money was from drug sales and should be seized. A lot of forfeiture asset rules allow the jurisdictions making the seizure to get a portion of what is seized. Tell me that isn't a recipe for corruption or abuse, the more you take the more you get to keep. BTW, Tennessee agencies get to keep 100% of the assets they seize. And it doesn't even have to be a crime in most cases for them to be justified in seizing your money or property, you can loose your money and property based solely on an opinion, not fact.

http://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit/grading-state-federal-civil-forfeiture-laws/

 

[Ugly]

seized money should be going to the taxpayers, to the budget. 

Departments keeping it is a sham for sure and should be criminal. 

[monkeylizard]

If anyone else showed up with a gun and demanded you turn over your cash, it would called armed robbery. Without actual criminal charges and a conviction, it should be no different with a badge. If it's drug money, convince a DA to press charges and then prove it in court. I also agree that the seizing agency shouldn't get a dime of it. It creates way too much conflict of interest. I know that would remove a huge tool in the DEA's arsenal for going after drug runners, but the cost to our civil liberty is just too great, IMO.

Edited August 1, 2017 by monkeylizard

[Erik88]

5 minutes ago, Ugly said:

seized money should be going to the taxpayers, to the budget. 

Departments keeping it is a sham for sure and should be criminal. 

Seizing money based solely on suspicion is ridiculous.

[monkeylizard]

Just now, Erik88 said:

Seizing money based solely on suspicion is theft.

FIFY!

[Capbyrd]

10 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Seizing money based solely on suspicion is ridiculous.

It's to protect you. 

 

[gjohnsoniv]

23 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

It's to protect you. 

 

And the children. 

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

Worth considering in this argument - though it could be a thread in it's own right.  This article in the Times this morning mentions that of the 166 exonerations in 2016, 70 involved government or prosecutorial misconduct.  The case cited involves Shelby County District Attorney Amy Weirich - regarding a case that set her on her upward trajectory politically...

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/magazine/she-was-convicted-of-killing-her-mother-prosecutors-withheld-the-evidence-that-would-have-freed-her.html?referer=https://t.co/mlRL0Wmk5v?amp=1

This is utterly disheartening and simultaneously rage inducing. 

[Erik88]

1 hour ago, Chucktshoes said:

This is utterly disheartening and simultaneously rage inducing. 

This thread has caused me to reconsider my support of the death penalty. Some people definitely deserve to die but not at the hands of a system that continues to lock up innocent people. Its not worth the risk.

[monkeylizard]

I'm not moved to be against it yet, but I've long held that it should only be used for heinous crimes when there's zero doubt of guilt and innocence. Get a conviction beyond reasonable doubt, but only have execution on the table when it's beyond the shadow of a doubt. We wrongly convict too many people to use it in any other way.

[Capbyrd]

Giving the state the ability to kill anyone is a mistake.  

[MacGyver]

I used to try to carve out room for capital punishment in extreme cases where there was no shadow of doubt.  But, that "shadow of doubt" is an interesting phrase.  It's interesting how many of the exonerations I've read about left none at the time - after all to be convicted of a capital crime, that's the burden - you must convince a jury of 12 peers unanimously that there is no shadow of doubt.

But then a witness recants. Or a witness comes forward to having been pressured to tell a particular version of a story in exchange for a deal. Or evidence is withheld. Or forensic or lab results are tainted. Or whatever...  The list simply goes on and on.

With all of that, I'm with Capbyrd that I simply do not trust my government to only apply the death penalty to perpetrators of heinous crimes.

But, I'll also expand on the rest of my thought process a bit - as it's evolved over the years.

As a person who believes that none of us are the worst versions of ourselves - that has to expand to believing that no one is only the product of worst thing they've ever done.  Sometimes actions have immediate consequences.  If you get shot by a homeowner as you threaten their family - well, sometimes big actions have big consequences.  

But, a redemptive and restorative philosophy of incarceration means that we seek justice - and realize that it may in fact take a long time.

There are some people that should probably never be let out of jail.  I'm sure there are some that would choose to be put to death as opposed to spending the rest of their natural life in prison.

There are no easy answers.  But, I'm convinced as a civil society that capital punishment shouldn't be a part of it.

[bersaguy]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

I used to try to carve out room for capital punishment in extreme cases where there was no shadow of doubt.  But, that "shadow of doubt" is an interesting phrase.  It's interesting how many of the exonerations I've read about left none at the time - after all to be convicted of a capital crime, that's the burden - you must convince a jury of 12 peers unanimously that there is no shadow of doubt.

But then a witness recants. Or a witness comes forward to having been pressured to tell a particular version of a story in exchange for a deal. Or evidence is withheld. Or forensic or lab results are tainted. Or whatever...  The list simply goes on and on.

With all of that, I'm with Capbyrd that I simply do not trust my government to only apply the death penalty to perpetrators of heinous crimes.

But, I'll also expand on the rest of my thought process a bit - as it's evolved over the years.

As a person who believes that none of us are the worst versions of ourselves - that has to expand to believing that no one is only the product of worst thing they've ever done.  Sometimes actions have immediate consequences.  If you get shot by a homeowner as you threaten their family - well, sometimes big actions have big consequences.  

But, a redemptive and restorative philosophy of incarceration means that we seek justice - and realize that it may in fact take a long time.

There are some people that should probably never be let out of jail.  I'm sure there are some that would choose to be put to death as opposed to spending the rest of their natural life in prison.

There are no easy answers.  But, I'm convinced as a civil society that capital punishment shouldn't be a part of it.

Believe me Mac I can understand completely your stance on this and I also have given it a ton of thought and it is hard for me to see trusting any Judge, jury or Prosecutor to produce all of their evidence to the Defense so a fair trial can be held. Now I will let my problem known what scares the hell out of me about life in prison without the possibility of parole. Back for those of you folks that remember a Governor named Ray Blanton. I don't know how many people knew his plans for the night before he left office but he planned on signing pardons and paroles for people in prison. On the list was about 12 or more murders and two in particular where professional hit men partners that killed a doctors wife for him while he was out of country and when he learned it was done the doctor got scare and feared them that he hired so he ratted them out if he could avoid prosecution. He set them up to be caught. Because the authorities wanted these 2 killers off the streets they made the deal. Blanton was going to Pardon these 2 guys along with several other really bad guys that had bought their way out! I learned about this years later while talking with a retired investigator that was one of the ones that took Blanton down. It is things like this that make me not trust putting men like this in prison for life instead of putting them on death row. President Obama pardoned a bunch of people just before he left office. I don't know what crimes they had committed but the fact is it was done. For those of you that don't know who Ray blanton was you can read about him in the link below.That is what scares the hell out of me is some crazy politician turning a bunch of these crazy people back out of prison. They cannot pardon anyone on death row!!!

  http://themoderatevoice.com/tennessee-governor-blanton-the-most-mischievous-of-mischief-makers/

[MacGyver]

That's a neat story, Doug.  Having grown up outside of Tennessee, I missed Tennessee history in elementary school.  

What a mess.

[monkeylizard]

Ray Blanton made Rod Blagojevich look like a choir boy. He had schemes inside his schemes.