Body camera video released of wrongful arrest over gun in Brownsville TN

[btq96r]

The serial number snafu was human error.  To what degree it was preventable with more attention to detail, I'm not sure.  The root cause of our problem here is citizens being preemptively treated as criminals sans evidence for exercising RKBA.  That needs to stop, but I'm not hopeful given the myriad examples we have to remind us where armed citizens stand in the eyes of the government and the law.

The post from @Dolomite_supafly is spot on in what this woman had to endure. For someone not prepared for such, it can mess with them for a long time. I hope any HR reps screening her for a job see the article exonerating her before they disqualify her from the quick check because of the mugshot.  If this woman ever has to seek mental health support, she better not pay a dime that isn't reimbursed riki tik. She deserves quite a bit more for the violations she had to endure, but that would be a start if needed.

Props for the local news team for their part in surfacing this miscarriage of justice.

[bersaguy]

I just hope she sues all of them for their actions. I would also demand that my mug shots be removed from any and all data bases that may have them all the way up to the FBI and if they aren't I would sue for that also...........jmho

[Cruel Hand Luke]

"I'm from the government...I'm here to help...."

While the overwhelming majority of police officers are conscientious and do a good job for little pay and less appreciation you also see instances where things like this happen. This woman was treated like a criminal , her liberty taken away and booked into jail because of a mistake. It is not like a normal business where a mistake would be she asked for coke and got diet coke instead. She was booked into jail. She should at the very minimum get any attorneys fees, lost wages and some sort of reasonable settlement for emotional damages. 

On the other hand....if the gun had been concealed none of this would have likely happened because they would not have seen the gun in the first place.  Some of you don't like hearing that, but truth is truth. It may be your right to open carry but it also creates situations that would not be created if a gun were not visible. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Cruel Hand Luke

[chances R]

2 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

" 

On the other hand....if the gun had been concealed none of this would have likely happened because they would not have seen the gun in the first place.  Some of you don't like hearing that, but truth is truth. It may be your right to open carry but it also creates situations that would not be created if a gun were not visible. 

I am with you on carrying concealed, but I believe she was concealed; wasn't that a 'sneaky pete' type holster?  She was honest and it turned out it bit her.  She could have said it was her cell phone, but if pressed could have been a bigger issue.

[Omega]

1 hour ago, chances R said:

I am with you on carrying concealed, but I believe she was concealed; wasn't that a 'sneaky pete' type holster?  She was honest and it turned out it bit her.  She could have said it was her cell phone, but if pressed could have been a bigger issue.

Never a good idea to lie to LEO, I believe that is a charge in itself.  It should of been concealed better at the very least, but it is not a requirement and this was all on LEO, she did everything she was supposed to.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

1 hour ago, chances R said:

I am with you on carrying concealed, but I believe she was concealed; wasn't that a 'sneaky pete' type holster?  She was honest and it turned out it bit her.  She could have said it was her cell phone, but if pressed could have been a bigger issue.

I mean concealed as in out of sight.... not "hiding in plain sight". If her shirt had covered it there might not have been an incident to begin with. Again what they did  is NOT her fault....but if they don't see it...it probably doesn't happen the same way. 

Not to derail this thread but this falls in the category of people being amazed that others pick up on them "being armed" by spotting the pocket clipped knife in their pocket, or someone seeing the bottom half of their OWB holster that just happens to be sticking out from under their skin tight T shirt, and dudes at the airport dressed like they are going directly to baghdad shocked at getting their "tactical pens" confiscated in the TSA line. 

[JAB]

Personally, I believe that once a citizen provides proof that he or she is legally carrying then, without strong probable cause, at the very least, an officer should have no more right to disarm the citizen than the citizen has to request that the officer leave his or her firearm in the patrol car.  As a citizen, I don't know the person who is approaching me and just because he or she is wearing a uniform doesn't mean I won't end up 'accidentally' shot.  My life and my right to feel safe and secure in my life is every bit as important as an officer's so as long as I haven't given the officer probable cause to suspect I will do him/her harm then if I have to disarm for our conversation then the officer should have to disarm, as well.

Luckily, instead of disarming a legally armed citizen I think/hope most officers would reasonably say, "Well, you leave yours in your holster, I will leave mine in my holster and we won't have a problem."

Edited August 1, 2017 by JAB

[Capbyrd]

5 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

... job for little pay ...

They are more than fairly compensated.  I know a few officers around Memphis bringing in over 6 figures.  

[Cruel Hand Luke]

MAYBE with A LOT of overtime and working extra jobs. I don't know any street officers making 6 figures....most street cops barely make mid 5 figures. In fact the median Police Patrol Officer salary in Chattanooga is $47,693. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Cruel Hand Luke]

47 minutes ago, JAB said:

 

Luckily, instead of disarming a legally armed citizen I think/hope most officers would reasonably say, "Well, you leave yours in your holster, I will leave mine in my holster and we won't have a problem."

That is what every single officer who has ever asked if I was armed said when they ran my DL (and saw that I had a permit). 

[Capbyrd]

18 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

MAYBE with A LOT of overtime and working extra jobs. I don't know any street officers making 6 figures....most street cops barely make mid 5 figures. In fact the median Police Patrol Officer salary in Chattanooga is $47,693. 

Its just a lot of overtime.  MPD is the highest paid department in the state.  And they are all past 10 years on so they are making good money as their base salary.  

[peejman]

1 hour ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

That is what every single officer who has ever asked if I was armed said when they ran my DL (and saw that I had a permit). 

Exactly. I think I would've politely pressed the issue of disarming "for the officer's safety" which is utter nonsense.  

I'll give you mine if you give me yours... haha. 

Does your gun normally go off while it's in a holster?  Mine doesn't either, so wouldn't it be best for it to stay where it is?

You want to take my gun for your safety?  I want to leave it where it is for everyone's safety. 

I'll let you touch it, but you gotta buy me dinner first. haha

Ever had an accidental discharge? Me neither, so let's leave it where it is and keep the streak alive. 

And so on...

Edited August 1, 2017 by peejman

[Ugly]

He didn't have to run the serial #. I don't see why that's ok. 

Its discrimination against a gun owner. Why not also run a credit check and see if she owes a debt? 

I hope she gets her just due and record is cleaned! 

[chances R]

sometimes they make it hard to be on their side....just sayin'

[Cruel Hand Luke]

1 hour ago, Capbyrd said:

Its just a lot of overtime.  MPD is the highest paid department in the state.  And they are all past 10 years on so they are making good money as their base salary.  

And we can make the argument that "more than fairly compensated" does not really apply when it is taking 60 (or more) hours a week to get that compensation....not counting the damage it often does to relationships and to sleep cycles which leads to bad decision making on the job. Force Science News has done tons of research on bad police decision making and attributes a lot of it to officers not sleeping enough or sleeping a regular sleep schedule... The guys I know all work extra jobs and a lot of OT out of necessity not just because they'd rather work than be at home with the wife and kids. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Cruel Hand Luke

[tacops]

I can't help myself, I gotta throw my opinion in here, she provided her carry permit upon request, I saw nothing to prompt an NCIC or State check on the serial number of the weapon being carried lawfully for there was no reason to lead one to believe it was stolen.  That being said, once the check was conducted by dispatch which came back as "stolen" the Officer was obligated at that point to take the weapon into possession.  However, arrest at this point was Officer discretion if the individual had sufficient proof of identity and no extenuating circumstances.  Now,  the Officer stated that Dispatch had screwed up before in such circumstances, and once they ran the check, a hard copy of the results would have been printed to be attached to the arrest report.  Upon arrival at HQ the Officer should have personally looked at the print out to confirm the accuracy before booking ensued or the case went any further.  Had he done so, she could have been immediately released with an apology and an explanation of the error.  Although still a screw up, at least at that point it could be seen as an honest mistake and a face to face apology would have gone a long way.  Then the next shift he could have bought a snow cone, said hello and left a good tip.  He would have probably then had a new friend in the community.

[Worriedman]

On 7/25/2017 at 10:46 AM, Omega said:

It has not been my experience to be treated as such, but yes many do.  I don't think one should have to sue to get compensated, it should automatically be done to keep the system in check.  If errors start costing the departments some operating funds, less errors are likely to occur, or at least more consequences for those making such errors.

There will be no suit, the department has qualified immunity.

[Omega]

3 minutes ago, Worriedman said:

There will be no suit, the department has qualified immunity.

Would this apply?  I personally think so, the 2nd, 4th, to begin with, when they didn't correct their error until forced to:

Quote

Qualified immunity shields public officials from damages for civil liability so long as they did not violate an individual's "clearly established" statutory or constitutional rights.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2013/04/what-is-qualified-immunity.html

[JAB]

16 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

And we can make the argument that "more than fairly compensated" does not really apply when it is taking 60 (or more) hours a week to get that compensation....not counting the damage it often does to relationships and to sleep cycles which leads to bad decision making on the job. Force Science News has done tons of research on bad police decision making and attributes a lot of it to officers not sleeping enough or sleeping a regular sleep schedule... The guys I know all work extra jobs and a lot of OT out of necessity not just because they'd rather work than be at home with the wife and kids. 

The 'poorly paid' argument honestly holds little water, for me.  If I don't like the salary I am making and don't like my job do you know what I should do?  Look for another job.  Officers have the same option - no one is forcing them to remain in law enforcement.  Further, they had to know that the job would be hard and they wouldn't get rich doing it when they signed up.  Would I want to do it?  Nope - and that is why I don't.  Now, I understand that one might not be able to find a new job immediately and I understand that the bills have to be paid so one might be 'stuck' for a while but I do get tired of hearing how 'awful' and 'low paying' the job is - especially when it is used for justification for an officer or officers doing anything from being jerks to outright abusing a citizen's rights right up to strapping someone to a restraint chair and torturing them.  If the job is that awful and low paying then one should look for another job that one likes better and stop giving good cops a bad name.

Edited August 2, 2017 by JAB

[JAB]

19 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

That is what every single officer who has ever asked if I was armed said when they ran my DL (and saw that I had a permit). 

I actually haven't had too many interactions with police while armed but in the one or two instances I did - which didn't have anything to do with me being detained for any reason, I've said something like, "I have a permit to carry and a .38 in my pocket."  That was to avoid simply blurting out, "I have a gun."  The one or two times this has happened, the response has been, "As long as it stays there it's not a problem."  That was actually why I made the comment along those lines to begin with.  In fact, I guess since the interaction wasn't because of any wrongdoing or suspected wrongdoing on my part, I've never even been asked to see the permit, just if I have one.  Those are the 'good officers' who are reasonable and who, sadly, get lumped in with those who probably have no business being in law enforcement in the first place.

One of the best interactions was with the then Sheriff of a small town near where I live (Vonore).  This was a few years ago so I don't know if he is still Sheriff or not.  I was at Farnsworth's.  He had just come out and was heading toward his vehicle.  I had just gotten out of my vehicle to go inside when he stopped me in the parking lot.  Although I generally don't fully open carry (usually at least 'casually concealed) at that, particular time, I was carrying a Rossi snubnosed .357 OWB with no cover garment.  This was before car carry was legal and I was also in public - in the parking lot - at the time so he could have asked if I had a permit.  Instead he said, "I see you're carrying.  Going in there to the range?"  I told him that I was.  Then he said, "Good.  I like to see people not only carrying but also practicing in case they need to use it.  I've got to bust your balls, a little, though [I specifically remember him saying "bust your balls" because I thought it was great.]  You have your gun but where is your light?  I have to harp on my guys all the time that if you are carrying a gun you should be carrying a light so you will be able to see your target if you are in the dark."  I then said, "I believe the same thing and I carry a light even when I am not carrying a gun," and showed him both the pocket flashlight I was carrying and the backup Photon on my keychain at that time.  He responded that he was impressed, told me to have a nice day and we both went about our business.  I don't know much about him but I have to say that if I lived in Vonore, barring any really good reason to the contrary, he would have had my vote in the next election. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by JAB

[Cruel Hand Luke]

34 minutes ago, JAB said:

The 'poorly paid' argument honestly holds little water, for me.  If I don't like the salary I am making and don't like my job do you know what I should do?  Look for another job.  Officers have the same option - no one is forcing them to remain in law enforcement.  Further, they had to know that the job would be hard and they wouldn't get rich doing it when they signed up.  Would I want to do it?  Nope - and that is why I don't.  Now, I understand that one might not be able to find a new job immediately and I understand that the bills have to be paid so one might be 'stuck' for a while but I do get tired of hearing how 'awful' and 'low paying' the job is - especially when it is used for justification for an officer or officers doing anything from being jerks to outright abusing a citizen's rights right up to strapping someone to a restraint chair and torturing them.  If the job is that awful and low paying then one should look for another job that one likes better and stop giving good cops a bad name.

Fortunately I have never met all those cops that use the "low pay" as you put it, as an excuse to terrorize citizens...maybe I just live in a different area. 

The GOOD cops don't get paid any better than the bad. Yet they are often expected to make perfect decisions in a split second , risk life and limb to protect people they don't know and who frankly often have a low opinion of them, doing it with training geared toward limiting liability for the department more than actually increasing officer survival and they are supposed to do it all with a smile while not making much more than $25000 a year starting out. 

The question becomes why would someone WANT to do it? Fortunately for society there are people that do sign on to do it.  Some people are just drawn to the "protector" role. Are they all good? No but there are more good than bad and frankly we can probably attribute more to ignorance than to malice when something like this happens.  

[JayC]

On 7/25/2017 at 10:47 AM, i1afli said:

This sounds like a search without probable cause...to ask someone for their personal property and then run what is effectively a background check on it.  Although i'm sure the officer will say that he only "asked" and that she didn't have to give it to him.

orse than that, I doubt under oath the officer could articulate a reason fear to disarm her in the first place.  He needs to be facing a civil rights lawsuit for the unlawful search, and everything else that spawned from his unlawful actions.

[bersaguy]

I do think she deserves some type of compensation for all she was put through but it should be a fair one and not an over the top one. I do think all her record and mug shots and anything pertaining to it should all go away completely all gone> Then I think she should be given a fair money compensation for mental anguish for illegally being arrested and detained. It should be offered and not needed to be gotten through a lawsuit................They also need to improve their way of doing back ground checks and other types of checks since this has been an issue with them getting it wrong in the past...........JMHO 

[deerslayer]

On 8/1/2017 at 6:05 PM, Cruel Hand Luke said:

And we can make the argument that "more than fairly compensated" does not really apply when it is taking 60 (or more) hours a week to get that compensation....not counting the damage it often does to relationships and to sleep cycles which leads to bad decision making on the job. Force Science News has done tons of research on bad police decision making and attributes a lot of it to officers not sleeping enough or sleeping a regular sleep schedule... The guys I know all work extra jobs and a lot of OT out of necessity not just because they'd rather work than be at home with the wife and kids. 

On the other hand, a 50-60 hour work week is, unfortunately, becoming the norm in America.  I know very few people with full time jobs who work only 40 hours/week any more.  "More with less" and all that I guess.  

[Garufa]

7 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

On the other hand, a 50-60 hour work week is, unfortunately, becoming the norm in America.  I know very few people with full time jobs who work only 40 hours/week any more.  "More with less" and all that I guess.  

That has always been the norm if you are a salaried employee and have responsibilities that might fall outside of "normal hours" or sometimes require some effort and possibly some temporary, personal sacrifice.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Garufa