HCP as an alternative to TICS/NICS

[Capbyrd]

See the poll.   Would you be okay with shorter time between renewals? 

[Hozzie]

Yes, but I don't see it happening. Too much money to be lost.

[Capbyrd]

1 hour ago, Hozzie said:

Yes, but I don't see it happening. Too much money to be lost.

 

I don't know numbers but it would be interesting to see the difference.   More renewals would mean more revenue too.  

 

[gregintenn]

Nope. I have a lifetime permit. As long as it isn't revoked, I shouldn't have to renew it.

[Jamie Jackson]

The shortened intervals wouldn't bother me in any way.

When I lived in MS prior to moving up to TN our permits served this point. I was surprised about my TN permit not serving in the same manner.

[fullagofast]

I have often wondered if this isn't the reason our HCP renewal length got raised and the lifetime was added. I had written to lawmakers several times trying to drum up support for going to the HCP instead of TICS check. Didn't get many replies but the Dept of Safety was pretty open about it a few years ago. It would be throwing away millions of dollars a year.

[Capbyrd]

The reason that I brought this up was the TFA Facebook page.  People are outraged that TN won't comply with the brady regulations to substitute a permit for a check.  But it seems like those same people don't want to comply with the Brady regs either.  You can't have both.  Choose one. 

[Worriedman]

23 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Nope. I have a lifetime permit. As long as it isn't revoked, I shouldn't have to renew it.

They are still going to do background checks on you, you just paid for them up front.

[300winmag]

How is the TN handgun carry permit not in compliance with the ATF to be a background check substitute?  I thought the problem was with the state of TN not wanting to give up TICS money from the FFL's, not that our permit is not in compliance with ATF.  It is my understanding that a state must do background checks every five years on pistol licenses, then they can be a substitute.  

[JAB]

I voted 'no' because I plan to do the $200 lifetime the next time I renew so I certainly wouldn't want to have to screw around with 'renewing' every five years just to satisfy that requirement.  Also, to be completely honest, I don't buy guns all that often and have reached a point where, with the possible exception of one or two 'wants', I am not likely to purchase too many more so, for me, ten bucks a pop when I am buying fewer than one firearm per year is a lot easier to deal with than having to renew my permit more often.

Honestly, though, the real problem - at least as far as I understand it - is that Tennessee has an unnecessary 'extra step' which is just an excuse to charge the ten dollars.  TICS isn't necessary and NICS checks would be free, at least to my understanding.  TICS is just there as a money making scheme, nothing else.

Edited May 17, 2017 by JAB

[Capbyrd]

1 hour ago, JAB said:

I voted 'no' because I plan to do the $200 lifetime the next time I renew so I certainly wouldn't want to have to screw around with 'renewing' every five years just to satisfy that requirement.  Also, to be completely honest, I don't buy guns all that often and have reached a point where, with the possible exception of one or two 'wants', I am not likely to purchase too many more so, for me, ten bucks a pop when I am buying fewer than one firearm per year is a lot easier to deal with than having to renew my permit more often.

Honestly, though, the real problem - at least as far as I understand it - is that Tennessee has an unnecessary 'extra step' which is just an excuse to charge the ten dollars.  TICS isn't necessary and NICS checks would be free, at least to my understanding.  TICS is just there as a money making scheme, nothing else.

TICS is an alternative to NICS.  There aren't two checks run.  The TBI handles it instead of going to through NICS.  You would still have to pay the 10 bucks regardless.  

 

I'm not just making stuff up.  Here is a link to the ATF list.  

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/permanent-brady-permit-chart

Here is the important verbiage. 
Note: Notwithstanding the dates set forth below, permits qualify as alternatives to the background check requirements of the Brady law for no more than 5 years from the date of issuance. The permit must be valid under State law in order to qualify as a Brady alternative.

 

 

 

Utah, Hawaii, and Nevada all operate similar to TN and have permits that allow them to skip NICS checks.  

Edited May 17, 2017 by Capbyrd

[300winmag]

I guess the real question is what keeps the Tennessee permit from qualifying with the ATF as a background check substitute whether or not we have TICS at the state level?

[Capbyrd]

1 minute ago, 300winmag said:

I guess the real question is what keeps the Tennessee permit from qualifying with the ATF as a background check substitute whether or not we have TICS at the state level?

Read what I posted.  Its renewal times.  Again,

 

Note: Notwithstanding the dates set forth below, permits qualify as alternatives to the background check requirements of the Brady law for no more than 5 years from the date of issuance. The permit must be valid under State law in order to qualify as a Brady alternative.

[Oh Shoot]

8 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

TICS is an alternative to NICS.  There aren't two checks run.  ...

Well, that's sort of semantic thing. TICS queries NICS, so it queries everything NICs does, but it also queries gawd knows what else -- and TICS will deny your transfer for things that NICS doesn't care about.

- OS

Edited May 18, 2017 by Oh Shoot

[Capbyrd]

42 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

Well, that's sort of semantic thing. TICS queries NICS, so it queries everything NICs does, but it also queries gawd knows what else -- and TICS will deny your transfer for things that NICS doesn't care about.

- OS

Yeah I know it's a bit more complicated.  But they haven't been able to grasp the whole five year renewal thing so I thought explaining the TICS would be too much.  The way the ATF defines it is that TBI acts as point of contact for NICS.  The bottom line of that was just supposed to be that TN isn't really double dipping.  

[macville]

Can I just point out that the TICS is unconstitutional? Our state constitution very clearly says what the state can do as far as restricting carry (only with a view to prevent crime) but it is silent about keeping arms. If the feds want to require an unconstitutional BG check, fine. We will deal with that at the national level someday. But considering how clear our state constitution is, we should be able to eliminate TICS if we actually tried.

[btq96r]

The five years methodology is sound.  For anyone who has a Top Secret Clearance, five years is how long it lasts for unless circumstances pop up to necessitate the suspension or termination of a clearance.  When that five year window is coming up, the clearance holder has to submit all the paperwork over again for a background investigation to get it renewed for another five years.

So, for your Facebook arguing or whatever, if someone mentions that five years isn't good enough for background checks, remind people that's how we handle TS information on an administrative basis, so it should be good enough for gun purchasing and ownership.

 

54 minutes ago, macville said:

Can I just point out that the TICS is unconstitutional? Our state constitution very clearly says what the state can do as far as restricting carry (only with a view to prevent crime) but it is silent about keeping arms. If the feds want to require an unconstitutional BG check, fine. We will deal with that at the national level someday. But considering how clear our state constitution is, we should be able to eliminate TICS if we actually tried.

TICS, nor the federal background check for that matter are unconstitutional.  TICS was set up as a routing method to satisfy the federal background check, so it's aiding our state residents in with a national regulation.  The federal check has been held up in court as constitutional.  Only the attempt to try and force local law enforcement to action it was struck down.

 

[Capbyrd]

44 minutes ago, btq96r said:

The five years methodology is sound.  For anyone who has a Top Secret Clearance, five years is how long it lasts for unless circumstances pop up to necessitate the suspension or termination of a clearance.  When that five year window is coming up, the clearance holder has to submit all the paperwork over again for a background investigation to get it renewed for another five years.

So, for your Facebook arguing or whatever, if someone mentions that five years isn't good enough for background checks, remind people that's how we handle TS information on an administrative basis, so it should be good enough for gun purchasing and ownership.

 

 

The trouble is that people want the 8 year renewal or the lifetime permit, but they also want that to qualify as an alternate to TICS/NICS.  And they can't have both.  They are blaming TN legislature for not giving us the permit as an acceptable alternative but are not willing to give up their long renewal periods. 

[btq96r]

 
The trouble is that people want the 8 year renewal or the lifetime permit, but they also want that to qualify as an alternate to TICS/NICS.  And they can't have both.  They are blaming TN legislature for not giving us the permit as an acceptable alternative but are not willing to give up their long renewal periods. 

I think the state ceasing to use the HCP as a revenue generator and only charging a reasonable apportionment of admin cost would lessen some of that opposition...though some people would never be happy but oh well.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk. OhShoot very much likes to know when we're using Tapatalk.

[JAB]

12 hours ago, Oh Shoot said:

Well, that's sort of semantic thing. TICS queries NICS, so it queries everything NICs does, but it also queries gawd knows what else -- and TICS will deny your transfer for things that NICS doesn't care about.

- OS

That is actually what I meant - TICS is an extra layer that is unnecessary and really only serves the purpose of allowing TN to charge ten bucks per check.  Further, and maybe things have changed, I have had discussions with folks who were in states with NICS only and, according to them, there was no fee for a NICS only background check.  Maybe I misunderstood but that was what I came away with and it has been long enough that I don't even remember what state(s) they were in.

Edited May 18, 2017 by JAB

[JAB]

1 hour ago, Capbyrd said:

 

The trouble is that people want the 8 year renewal or the lifetime permit, but they also want that to qualify as an alternate to TICS/NICS.  And they can't have both.  They are blaming TN legislature for not giving us the permit as an acceptable alternative but are not willing to give up their long renewal periods. 

As I already stated, I'd rather have the long renewal periods and pay ten bucks for the maybe one firearm I buy per year.  Even when I was buying more firearms I would have felt the same, I think.  Further, if truly explained to them, I think that most permit holders would agree.  I am thinking that the majority of permit holders are not TGO members nor are they people who probably buy firearms regularly.  For that matter, my WAG would be that a pretty healthy percentage of permit holders may only own the one gun that they carry.  On the other end of the spectrum, the 'hardcore' gun buyers and sellers may not care, either, because they might be doing mostly private sales and purchases.

[Oh Shoot]

4 hours ago, JAB said:

That is actually what I meant - TICS is an extra layer that is unnecessary and really only serves the purpose of allowing TN to charge ten bucks per check....

Well, again, it's unnecessary from your point of view, but the TBI finds it necessary so they can disapprove purchases above and beyond the requirements of NICS alone.

- OS

[300winmag]

If you buy a gun from an FFL in Mississippi and you do not have a MS firearms license, your information is called into the FBI NICS system.  You DO NOT pay a fee to the FBI for your background check.  If you do have a MS firearms license, that acts as a background check substitute and your information is not called in.  You just fill out the FFL 4473 and the dealer writes down your firearms license information in an area on the 4473.  Mississippi does not have its own gun background check system like TN. 

 

[Oh Shoot]

States may be No, Partial, or Full contract as far as NICS checks.

Any of those who get involved at all obviously may charge a fee, though I don't know of any others who do. Seems the other states who charge something or other are for their own state related registrations of various kinds.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/permanent-brady-state-lists

- OS

[Capbyrd]

30 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

States may be No, Partial, or Full contract as far as NICS checks.

Any of those who get involved at all obviously may charge a fee, though I don't know of any others who do. Seems the other states who charge something or other are for their own state related registrations of various kinds.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/permanent-brady-state-lists

- OS

I must have mistaken those fees.  Thats my mistake.